170 réponses à ce sujet

[Fukairi]

Russalka wrote...

Isabela was a very sex positive character, which was truly refreshing. Granted, I did worry about her getting hit with arrows and such.

^this

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

She also got the clap, silly girl don't they have protection in Dragon Age?

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:21 .

[brushyourteeth]

Fukairi wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

So, just out of curiosity, Fukairi -- if you were to implement the necessary changes to the DA universe to give women the representation you're looking for, or design the ideal female character, what would that look like, exactly?

I mean, without saying "She wouldn't wear *x*" or "It wouldn't be like *y*". What would the ultimate improvement look like?

Sooo sorry, I did mean to reply to this, I just kind of got overwhelmed and forgot!

I've been there. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand!

diverse body types and appropriate armour. Maybe female character that were not all attractive to the eye? There were a few with plagued skin on origins, but as far as I remember all the female npc looked pleasing enough. To the lower races and dalish elves, it's understandable for them to be lithe and tiny, but the upper classes should be more robust. I'm not saying MAKE EVERYONE DISFIGURED AND FAT but ultimately diversity would be nice.

I agree that diverse body types would be great! I think this issue is less of a conscious "wimmin must fit this mold" mindset on the devs' part than the fact that it was more cost-efficient to just choose one body model and stick with it. So to that end, they picked a slim but muscular female model with essentially the intent of giving us the body type that both male and female gamers would appreciate the most. Because, let's be honest -- when girls play games we set out to make the hottest protagonist we can. Even if we're making a dwarf or an elf, we want her to look goooooood. I thought that Aveline's man-arms were a nice touch, and her face wasn't overly pleasing to me aesthetically -- which is one of the reasons I was so impressed when I found how many male DA fans would have loved to romance her, because it was obviously about her personality and not her sex appeal.

We've also never had a female blonde companion, let alone a romanceable one. I mean, COME ON. If that doesn't scream "We're trying not to objectify! We're trying not to do what's expected! We're trying not to give you cliches!!!" that does. (no offense to blondes -- I'm just talking about the Barbie archetype and how it's almost impossible to get away from)

Gaming in a world populated by pretty women doesn't bother me too much, personally, because statistically half the population of women are of average attractiveness or higher in real life. That's a lot of cute girls, and no one can argue with the realism of reality. Plus artists and writers have been glorifying women for their grace and beauty for centuries -- I'm ok with games doing the same, as long as they're not exploitative.

Those are just my opinions on the subject. To date there has been only one situation that elicited an eyeroll from me when it comes to DA, and that was Origins' Dalish armor. Everything else has jived perfectly well with my sense of feminine pride. 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:25 .

[Fukairi]

Anyway, I need to go to bed but it has been interesting to say the least. Carry on and goodnight.

[Russalka]

DinoSteve wrote...

She also got the clap, silly girl don't they have protection in Dragon Age?

If there were no consequences, it would be boring.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Russalka wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

She also got the clap, silly girl don't they have protection in Dragon Age?

If there were no consequences, it would be boring.

lol

Still its not a great statement to put out from Bioware to impressionable teens. She can have all the sex she wants as long as she uses protection.

[brushyourteeth]

NasreddinHodja wrote...

I do agree that Bioware could work harder to take their characters further away from archetypes, but:

1. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In essence, the characters in Dragon Age are different visages of the human personality, magnified so they become fully-developed characters. And to be honest, we love them because of it. We recognize some very real personalities in these caricatures, some of them may even be our own. And that makes us relate to them and care about them emotionally.

2. This applies to both male and female characters, so the topic really isn't "sexism in the industry," but more "three-dimensional characters in stories."

I just think that this is awesome, and worth quoting back into the discussion.

[Xewaka]

DinoSteve wrote...

Russalka wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...
She also got the clap, silly girl don't they have protection in Dragon Age?

If there were no consequences, it would be boring. 

lol
Still its not a great statement to put out from Bioware to impressionable teens. She can have all the sex she wants as long as she uses protection. 

She does regularly visit the doctor (Anders) to have whatever she gets treated.

[JCAP]

Fukairi wrote...

JCAP wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fukairi wrote...

Fenris is ultimately a whiny, aggressive psychopath who wears ridiculous armor for 2h combat and walks around in harsh terrain bare footed for chirst's sake.

So you're capable of evaluating Fenris as an individual character with his own pros and cons without leaping to the conclusion that who he is a poor representation of a man?

How come Fenris is permitted to be considered as an individual and not Isabela or Merrill?  Are female characters not allowed to be imperfect, then? 

There were good points to both isabela and merril, but I was generally focusing on the things I feel need work. just because I think the character is bad, or I found them a bit offensive and boring, doesn't mean they don't have any redeeming qualities.

Also, you have misinterepted me twice now. I think Fenris is a hideous representation of a man honestly. Fenris was used as an example to point out that even if I liked this character it was flawed. So me pointing out flaws on isabela and merrill was not a personal swipe at people who liked them, and I am not certainly screaming in their faces wth caps lock and exclamation marks about how they could like them etc. I won't judge since, as pointed out, I like fenris, even if I think fenris and anders were both the biggest offenders on the sexism on the male gender honestly. Earlier I did state that ALL the romanceable characters were the least interesting etc.

Why do you care if they do justice to a gender or not? I, and every men I know, don't give a cr*p about Anders and Fenris. They ARE characters, they don't represent any gender or country or whatever

Oh boy.
I care because people are kind of stupid.
we are told to think this way and we think that way. All of our opinions are based on some intake, be it religion, upbringing, social circles or media. Media is by far, the largest place of intake. therefore it is crucially important that the media treats both genders realistically and appropriatelly for the media does infact matter. so yes, they are just characters but the also enforce certain potentially dangerous stereotypes.

Now, i'm not calling you personally stupid, but we are all so easily manipulated to think a certain way. Everything in this thread is based on something, weither we aknowledge it or not.

so this sort of indifference, that I shouldn't care because it doesn't matter, is indeed false because it does matter.

And you are giving a cr*p about that, my point is, don't give a cr*p about it.

"Now, i'm not calling you personally stupid" - I am not a 9 year old boy or something similar, you are calling me stupid, else, you wouldn't say that.



^
This is what happens when you care about petty things, I know that you indirectly called me stupid, but I just don't give a damn.

[Wulfram]

brushyourteeth wrote...

We've also never had a female blonde companion

How dare you forget me, Shemlen

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Xewaka wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Russalka wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...
She also got the clap, silly girl don't they have protection in Dragon Age?

If there were no consequences, it would be boring. 

lol
Still its not a great statement to put out from Bioware to impressionable teens. She can have all the sex she wants as long as she uses protection. 

She does regularly visit the doctor (Anders) to have whatever she gets treated.

I know but it still wouldn't hurt her to practice safe sex.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[Russalka]

DinoSteve wrote...

lol

Still its not a great statement to put out from Bioware to impressionable teens. She can have all the sex she wants as long as she uses protection.

"Sex is fun, but can sometimes get you diseases"? Sounds like real life to me. It clearly shows what might go wrong, does not glorify it until the end.

Modifié par Russalka, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Wulfram wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

We've also never had a female blonde companion

How dare you forget me, Shemlen

She had a totally unlikeable personality. Also pick makes her look like she's sucking a lemon.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:36 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Russalka wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

lol

Still its not a great statement to put out from Bioware to impressionable teens. She can have all the sex she wants as long as she uses protection.

"Sex is fun, but can sometimes get you diseases"? Sounds like real life to me. It clearly shows what might go wrong, does not glorify it until the end.

I never said not to say those things, but it would have been nice to have a comment about how she should probably use protection.

[The Elder King]

Fukairi wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Isabela was a very sex positive character, which was truly refreshing. Granted, I did worry about her getting hit with arrows and such.

^this

Arrows are a problem for nearly all DA2's companion, with the exception of Aveline, Carver (in Act 3) and Sebastian, since their robes (of Fenris's armour who leaves a lot of target) are greatly inadequate for restisting arrows.
I mean, Carver and Fenris are as worse as Isabela, since all of them are melee fighters and aren't well-protected.
If the problem with Isabela is fighting with those clothes, that I could understand your point, but I think all the companions should have at least some leather armours.
If the problem with her clothes is the fact that is meant to appeal male gamers, that I don't agree. They created her character as a person who loves sex and want to dress like this. Of course, that means that some people will dislike and hate her, but her clothes are completely IC.
About Merrill and Isabela as characters, I think that they're well-written. Even if I don't like some of the companions in Bioware's recent games, I think that they're generally well written. I liked DA2 less than DAO, but I don't have much complain about the party, even If I prefer the DAO's party (though my favourite companion in the IP so far is Varric).

[The Elder King]

DinoSteve wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

We've also never had a female blonde companion

How dare you forget me, Shemlen

She had a totally unlikeable personality. Also pick makes her look like she's sucking a lemon.

I liked how Bioware wrote Velanna, though my PCs didn't like her much. Though to be fair I think that Loghain is the best character of DAO and he ends most of the time with his head separated from his body.

Modifié par hhh89, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:39 .

[brushyourteeth]

Wulfram wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

We've also never had a female blonde companion

How dare you forget me, Shemlen

BWAHAHA, fair enough! I do tend to forget about Velanna. She had a compelling backstory, but nothing much ever happened to make her stick out to me.

Still, nothing like a Barbie doll, is she? (I mean, besides being attractive)

[brushyourteeth]

Filament wrote...

I agree, enough with the sexist job discrimination keeping women out of the work force in Thedas.

I wondered when someone was going to play off the title of the OP.

Good on you. 

[Maria Caliban]

DinoSteve wrote...

I never said not to say those things, but it would have been nice to have a comment about how she should probably use protection.

She does use protections. Hence the lack of Isabrats.

If you mean protection against diseases, that didn't happen until the invention of the rubber condom.

[Face of Evil]

I'm not sure why people worry about their characters suffering injury because of a lack of armour. These people all survive getting set on fire, shot with dozens of arrows and getting stomped on by giants.

All the supporting NPCs have 417 gallons of blood, several sets of redundant organs and flesh as tough as boiled leather. They're not human, they're superhuman.

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you mean protection against diseases, that didn't happen until the invention of the rubber condom.

We've actually had variations of condoms since the 16th century. True story.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[cJohnOne]

I don't think guys would go for less attractive love interests. They just wouldn't care. That sound right to you?

[cJohnOne]

Face of Evil wrote...

I'm not sure why people worry about their characters suffering injury because of a lack of armour. These people all survive getting set on fire, shot with dozens of arrows and getting stomped on by giants.

All the supporting NPCs have 417 gallons of blood, several sets of redundant organs and flesh as tough as boiled leather. They're not human, they're superhuman.

So you're saying if you have a superhero they rest of the world can be unrealitic too?

[Face of Evil]

cJohnOne wrote...

So you're saying if you have a superhero they rest of the world can be unrealitic too?

Not what I said. My point is that decrying Isabella's outfit as "impractical protection" is just silly, because these characters can brush off wounds that cripple or kill normal humans like you or me.

Would you prefer to play in a fantasy world where you retire a hero the minute you take an arrow to the knee? That might be more realistic, but it's not very fun.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:55 .