611 réponses à ce sujet

[joker_jack]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

You completely misunderstood what I was trying to say in the OP.

Also, for example, Asari Vanguard -> Godly on Glacier/Cerberus. Condor/Geth -> Another story

Infiltrators are godly no matter the map/enemy.

What's so godly about a SI? A human? A FQI?

Pretty sure I could just choose a Kroguard on Condor/Geth and do a far better job than any of them, seems pretty strange seeing as though you described them as "godly".

That's a set up for everyone's 1st gold solo. Not that it's bad or op set up, just the easiest to get a hold of. Though many think if a kit is easy to use, then it's op but, people that played nothing but fbw/g/g back in the day proved that ***** ain't true.

[BridgeBurner]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

I assume he was using an old 14.4 kbit dial up connection... from the moon?

I have no idea, joined end of wave 5, lagged through wave 6, then remembered I had fraps open so decided to record wave 7. Started off fine, but things rapidly went downhill....

[Seargent_Braken]

bobobo878 wrote...

IKR? Infiltrators are like the second worst class in the game. I prefer MAX and heavy assault myself. Still, they're not as bad as light assault, those jump jets they have are just too gimicky, not nearly as useful as the tools engineers and combat medics have.

Something tells me you'll find VERY few people that know what you're referencing here. (MAX is UP compared to HA, anyway. HA serve as AA, AV, AND AI all at the same time, MAX has to be one at a time, and is nowhere near as effective, anyway. Also, LAs infiltrate better than Infiltrators. )

OT: While I don't play anywhere near as much as I used to, I have to agree. Infiltrators are a nightmare for balance.

The bonus damage does need to be toned down a bit, but the main issue is the abitily to completely ignore cooldowns...

Modifié par Seargent_Braken, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:16 .

[Xaijin]

Cyonan wrote...

Annomander wrote...

They don't have invisibility, or an aggro drop.

I did a duo with stardusk, and I cloaked near 3 assault troopers. They all instantly stopped shooting at me and walked away. Stardusk was on the other side of the map.

So damage + survivability, and of course, the damage itself leads to higher survivability; as killing something before it can kill you is a great way to stay alive.

But the Human Soldier. Turian Soldier, and N7 Destroyer can all put out more damage than the QFI.

So really all TC actually has is an aggro drop which leads to less things wanting to do terrible things to you.

Spike damage oftens trumps sustained, and the health differences kinda bear that out.

Modifié par Xaijin, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[joker_jack]

Annomander wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

I assume he was using an old 14.4 kbit dial up connection... from the moon?

I have no idea, joined end of wave 5, lagged through wave 6, then remembered I had fraps open so decided to record wave 7. Started off fine, but things rapidly went downhill....

Wow sounds like Eegah was hosting your match.

[WizeMan305]

When you do take it into consideration it is hard to balance the game when taking the Infiltrator into account. They have amazing survivability, they have high damage output, they have scaled cooldowns, and are versatile in most any situation. Every draw back to any aspect of the game the Infiltrator takes away from it.

[Xaijin]

Farosyrn wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Shadow's spike damage makes krogan look like pet frogs.

Please don't say you are trying to tell us that shadows are overpowered or anything. 'cause that would be the tombstone of credibility concerning this discussion.

Feneckus wrote...

A Geth Trooper with a Javelin + phasic
rounds can one shot everything that's not a boss, including phantoms.
And vs bosses, the Javelin is an Acolyte on steroids.

Sure thing. But doesn't that just mean the Geth Trooper is overpowered? I mean, the GI was meant to snipe the crap out of stuff, the soldier on the other hand...more like a jack of all trades.

Never even implied they were overpowered. The fact remains that a properly played shadow in a non-laggy game can pretty much remove any nonboss threat with near impunity, even with the horrendously slow SS actuation and can even slug through a squad if necessary based on melee-into-dodge DR. Let's see a krogan or batarian, supposed melee masters, do that, if for example, three phantoms are actively targeting them and no one else and they don't have optimal gear.

Infs have pretty much a very heavy hand in everything except sustained dps and repeated biotic combo detonating, and the tgi with a PPR or harrier can make pretty good run at nice if not maxed level sustained dps.

For almost every situation that ME can bring, there's an infiltrator for that™, when you'd kinda assume that's the soldier's deal for the most part. Soldiers do fine, but a higher difficulties spike damage is far far more useful than sustained fusillades, and a hell of a lot safer too, even with soft cover dancing.

Modifié par Xaijin, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[K_O_513]

Xaijin wrote...
 properly played shadow in a non-laggy game

This is the key right here. These two matter more than the kit itself...especially the former. No class is "idiot-proof" so to speak. And as we all know, in ME3, host advantage is the best advantage especially when dealing with powers like Tactical Cloak and Shadow Strike.

[Takeyama]

Seargent_Braken wrote...
Something tells me you'll find VERY few people that know what you're referencing here. (MAX is UP compared to HA, anyway. HA serve as AA, AV, AND AI all at the same time, MAX has to be one at a time, and is nowhere near as effective, anyway. Also, LAs infiltrate... )

...I remember when there were words, rather than acronyms. XD

Anyways, I've seen you play Fen...so I know how good you are. That being said, I think that's part of the problem. To me personally based on playing one, and playing with some, and seeing some of the high level guys play them in videos...I've come to the conclusion that no class is nearly so reliant solely on the player's ability than the Infiltrator. Most other classes seem to have a lot of wiggle room to fit people and excel no matter who you are...but Infiltrators have the power to be incredibly OP for the people who are good with them, (good at sniping, really high spatial awareness, etc) or...to people like me, whom really suck at sniping on consoles...well...we do quite a bit worse. I did better with the Salarian than the female Quarian, and the human I'm bipolar with...those are the only three i have at the moment...

I'm still pretty fresh and not so great at the game, but that's as much as I can deduce about this. I know I may do somewhat better the more fleshed out my manifest gets, but I still miss shots all the damn time lol. Can't kill what you can't hit. XD

[Dilandau3000]

Feneckus wrote...

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns.

Theoretically. I play off-host 99% of the time, and especially lately I've been getting the double cooldown glitch a lot.

Essentially this means I cloak, use power, shoot, get cooldown for cloak, but somehow remain cloaked. Once the cloak's duration runs out I then have to wait again for cloak's full cooldown (which is long, especially on my favourite FQI with Black Widow + HVB). And woe be me if the game ever decides to ignore my attempt to cloak and just casts sabotage without cloak, then I have to wait over 8 seconds (iirc) for the sabotage cooldown with that loadout.

It's one of the reasons why I've grown to like the Asari Huntress. I run her with a much lighter weapon loadout (depending mainly on the power bonuses) so I still get reasonable cooldowns if the cloak cooldown override doesn't work right.

So yeah, they don't give a damn about cooldowns, but only if playing as host.

[BjornDaDwarf]

Read through about half the thread, seemed like it was starting to repeat. I tend to agree that it's a brutal ability to balance around. It makes most guns/powers twice as nice as they are on any other kit. But I hadn't seen much discussion of this yet:

Why do ranks 5 and 6 seem far less valuable than the 5th/6th ranks of so many other powers? One of the other balancing issues with TC is that so much of it's value is front loaded into the first 4 ranks. It's an incredible power that only really needs 10 points to be considered the best power in the game. I'm not sure there's another power like that.

I've always wondered why it was that Ranks 4 and 6 weren't swapped. Give the choice of Bonus Power/Specialty Damage at 4, and the Duration/Damage choice at 6. Would force a lot more builds to go the full 6, taking away from other abilities/passives/fitness.

It certainly wouldn't magically "balance" everything, but it still seems like a more logical design to me.

Modifié par BjornDaDwarf, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[heybigmoney]

What the? Is it groundhogs day?

[corporal doody]

sick? nah...never really played them till the shadow came out. not my favorite class....the asari huntress spiced it up for me a bit though.

[MajorStupidity]

I have always enjoyed the rogue assassin in games and the infiltrator is the closest thing to it in ME. I enjoy the other classes dont get me wrong (I literally play everything) but the infiltrator has always had a certain charm I like. I even was an avid infiltrator player back in ME1.

The infiltrator class could certainly use some tweaking, but saying that they should be removed completely is just ridiculous.

[snackrat]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Then don't play them.

Their primary concern isn't that 'they are too powered', it is that in order to constrain their power, other classes also suffer.

Also, yes, playing with other classes that are far more powerful than you IS bad, co-op or not - otherwise there wouldn't be all that opposition to missile-glitching.

Simply saying 'don't play them' does not do anything to underline the problem. It would be valid if they were only affected if they used it - but they are affected by OTHER people using it. It would be like saying "if you don't like all the shootings, don't buy a gun". Nothing to stop anyone being shot, in fact the lack of a gun may make them more vulnerable. Blowing plumes in someone's face with a "if you don't like cigarettes, don't smoke" even though 'second-hand' smokers are more at risk and you're blowing gorram plumes at them. It's trying to deny the problem with a petty argument that doesn't even make sense.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:26 .

[BjornDaDwarf]

I was curious about the numbers so far on Annomander's Hall of Fame list for Plat Solos.

As of right now, these are the solos listed for each class:

Adepts - 7
Soldiers - 16
Engineers - 4
Sentinels - 6
Infiltrators - 16
Vanguards - 7

Only the Krogan Soldier, Destroyer, GI, Ghost, Huntress and Kroguard have hit their limit of entries.  Only the Soldiers and Infiltrators have had an entry in every single race (I'm assuming someone will do it quickly enough with the brand new Marksman). 

Makes sense, weapons rule Platinum (by and large), and those are the best two weapons classes.  It's not a perfect metric, but it does show what classes the people capable of soloing Plat favor. 

[SpockLives]

I never play Infiltrators anymore. Played Salarian during the demo. Used Male Quarian when making the jump from Silver to Gold.

Don't like any Infiltrators anymore, though.

Down with the Infiltrators! Down with the GI and TGI! Nerf Tactical Cloak!

*Fetches the pitchforks and torches.* *Prepares to storm the castle.*

Modifié par SpockLives, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:25 .

[xWARx DEMON]

Anyone else sick of whiners?

[Sovereign24]

Infiltrator's need to fall man.

[capn233]

There is some hyperbole, but a bit of truth. The design of Tactical Cloak is not good for the game really.

What do you get with cloak? Invisibility, double dip damage bonus, and cooldown insensitivity. Infiltrators do make better Soldiers and better Engineers than the respective pure classes. This is largely due to the latter two characteristics: damage bonus you can apply to a power and your weapon each cloak cycle, and the minimum cooldown which is easily abused.

Any arguments about the "utility" portion of cloak though are not worth seriously considering. I didn't like it when this talking point originated way back when the balance club decided to champion the first major change to TC. They wanted to make you choose between "utility" (invisibility duration) and damage. If you understood the game at all it should have been obvious why this wasn't going to matter much in the overall balance. Quite simply there is nothing more utilitarian in this game than damage, so it is a false choice to begin with. You never need to be invisible, and there isn't a great advantage to being invisible in most situations. You always need damage in a game though. The choice was clear. It was obvious that the base duration change was not going to seriously affect the "metagame" except for the very small effect that it would be a little more difficult for an infiltrator to run from one end of the map to the other willy nilly, and it might be harder to enable devices with poor teamwork and gameplan. That's it. Certain people pointed this out at the time this was proposed. Or at least one person did... Interestingly the Ghost's damage bonuses from all over the place made it possible to take Duration and still have chart topping damage.

Cloak's Rank 6 Sniper Rifle Damage is a nice multiplier that is fairly unusual. Most bonuses are nice little additive bonuses. At the time they thought that reducing this number would reign in all the sniper infiltrators. I suggested that all it would do was shift more infiltrators to shotguns. And that's basically what happened. Keep in mind that at the time shield gate was still 100%, you didn't have as high a defense multiplier on Disruptor Ammo let alone Phasic, and sniper rifle base damage was relatively weak. Hence it made less sense to go with relatively poor power to weight guns. Now it is a bit different: shield gate has dropped twice, we have new or improved ammos, and the sniper rifles have largely been buffed. Personally I don't think the Rank 6 SR bonus is all that unbalanced. It only works with one class, which is largely a burst damage over sustained damage. The Ghost's AR cloak bonus is of course different. Since it has a longer bonus duration and meshes with higher DPS weapons, it is quite powerful. The bonus percentage should be reduced.

If I don't think the SR bonus makes cloak overpowered, than what does? It is the double dipping of power damage and weapon damage in the same cloak cycle and getting an 80% bonus for them. In fact, back in the old balance thread when cloak changes were proposed, I pointed this out and when asked about it said they should cut the damage 10%... and miraculously the base damage ended up losing 10%. However, it turns out I was wrong and perhaps it should have been reduced further.

The last thing to mention is the cloak minimum cooldown. I have been a fan of lengthening it for a long time. If you think the philosophy of the class should be high damage spikes (like an assassin), it doesn't make sense to let the class spam the bonus repeatedly in a short amount of time. This, along with the double dipping, leads to the highest average damage output for both weapons and tech. Not only because you are getting cycles that are only in the neighborhood of 3s, but because you can pile on the most damaging weapons and still get those rapid cycles.

If there was a serious push to bring cloak in line, the evolutions for vanilla Tactical Cloak would probably move closer to something like this:

Rank 1
Recharge: 12s
Duration: 6s
Damage: 20%
Minimum cooldown: 4s

Rank 4
Duration Evolution
Increase Duration 70% (that gives it 12s...)

Damage Evolution
Increase Damage 20% (for a total of 40%)

And then the rest can stay reasonably the same. With the exception of AR Damage, that should probably come down to 10%.

Ideally to fix it the best would require patching and a revamp of the evolution trees. I would consider eliminating the cloak bonus to power damage in the base cloak and making the Rank 4 choice between weapon and power damage.

tl;dr - learn to read

Modifié par capn233, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:41 .

[UnknownMercenary]

^^ really good analysis there

Splitting rank 4 between power and gun damage is a good idea. What if rank 5 was duration versus recharge?

[capn233]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

^^ really good analysis there

Splitting rank 4 between power and gun damage is a good idea. What if rank 5 was duration versus recharge?

If you had free reign to redesign Cloak, you could potentially even make an evolution that reduced minimum cooldown.  It would have to be at the expense of something pretty substantial in the other evolution though.

The only thing I don't like about Duration vs Recharge is that Duration sort of helps your effective recharge speed anyway.  Reason is that canceling early when you have longer duration means you have used less percentage of your duration, so you are going to be closer to the minimum than you would have been otherwise.

Modifié par capn233, 05 décembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[mgc1971]

This is a coop game.As far as I am concerned, everyone on my team should use whatever character they like.If they like

If theirchoice is an infiltrator, it's cool because they will kill things fast and probably be a great help for the team by reviving fallen teammates and doing hacking devices.I still dont get why people is trying to tell other players how this game should be played.

Some of the best players I've met love infils.Does this mean that they lack skill? NO WAY IN HELL.They take advantage of TC the same way that the Fury does with her biotic powers or the krogan with being an almost indestructible tank

Hell, from now on I feel like stopping playing my beloved soldier class ( that's what I use 90% of the times ) and switch to infiltrators only

IMO people are taking this game far too seriously, pls stop this madness and start enjoying this excellent game once and for all.

Play the game as you like, but dont tell others what to do with their game

[Grun7mas7er]

 Not going to comment on the eternal Infiltrator debate but I do agree that the Stim Pack nerf dramatically affects the Havoc's survivablilty while remaining just as effective on the TGI. Not the best balance change, I must say.