611 réponses à ce sujet

[lightswitch]

I agree with the OP. Every time I play anything but a GI Raider I feel like I'm nerfing myself. Literally, I'll score 30-50k more points with a GI than I would with most other classes in the game. The damage output is just insane.
And for everyone saying the invisibility feature of cloak is broken, if you weren't so busy spamming it over and over for your 80% damage boost you would know better. It works fine. Geth see through it much easier, presumably because Hunters have *SURPRISE* Hunter Mode and let's not forget the whole Networked AI thing. Also, don't run within arms length of enemies and expect them not to see you. This is reasonable, learn to play.

[aimimia]

I think it's more o an issue of TC ignoring cool downs and giving a huge damage boost. It's also not bad on anything, so you "should" use it on every circumstance possibly. It synergizes too well with other powers. Unlike for example, proximity mine and marksman. It personally makes the game easier and more fun for me since I can use any load out on the infiltrator an still hope that I can do well.
As hard it is to say this, I would prefer that TC would suffer from cool down and the damage from TC reduced or become specialized.

[Deerber]

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

Yeah, I noticed I tend to play them less and less the more experienced I get with this game.

I agree with pretty much everything, they're completely easy mode.

But no, I don't think the game would be better without them. I think a complete rework of them would be the best thing. It wouldn't be that hard I think... Couple of ideas come to mind:

- make the TC damage bonus only work on the first bullet it's fired. And yes, a single pellet would count as a bullet. So, no freakin' shotgun infiltrators anymore. Infiltrators would retain their "SR assassination kings" feeling, the way it should be imho. And it should have no effect on powers unless specifically built for that (huntress), and in that case it should have no effect on guns.

- Fix the stupid power-abuse by making them suffer the longest of the 2 CDs.

- To compensate and to allow them more mobility on the battlefield, which should be their main feature, imho, undo the duration nerf.

That would take care of it, I think.

Modifié par Deerber, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:18 .

[SlowMerc]

greghorvath wrote...

Cohen le Barbare wrote...

zRz Tyr wrote...
Learn 2 play.

Wow, you're telling Feneckus to learn to play. I understand you might not be watching every ME3 video out there, but if there's one thing this dude can do is play.

I'd like to see other issues fixed, but you can't deny that infiltrators are freakishly powerful.

In other words: why should people care if infitrators are "freakishly powerful"?

On topic: its probably not about being outscored by an infilly in Feneckus' case... Is it about not getting "far enough ahead" in score that hurts you so much?

Because BW cares about balances and WILL nerf powers and classes that are deemed too powerful or used too much. The problem Feneckus high-lighted is that thanks to infilitrators using TC to massively boost power damage and recharge times of other popular powers, those other powers will likely also be nerfed affecting other kits as well.

In a perfect world BW would change TC so it didn't ignore weapon weight while still being useful with sniper rifle (which often does weigh a bit too much) and perhaps greatly reduce the power damage bonus. Sadly that would probably require a patch so BW is far likely to to take the easy way out by just toning down those other powers instead.

[xcrunr1647]

Zjarcal wrote...

[ryoldschool]

Feneckus has some good points as to how infiltrators cheat the cooldown system which circumvents the weapon weight penalty which is used to try to balance weapons and powers. I think he has made a good case with his examples by pointing out this abuse.

I do not feel that the game is really broken because of them, as it seems that there is still quite a diversity of kits being used ( anecdotal evidence ).

It would be interesting if Bioware could post some statistics about usage of the various kits to see if there is a real problem with diversity of kit use. I feel that kit usage is pretty much all over the place. With my friends sometimes nobody plays an infiltrator, sometimes all of us do. In PUG there is a wide range of kit usage, but I don't recall infiltrators being 1/3 of the kits used on Gold like it was before the first TC nerf.

btw, if anyone except somebody like Feneckus had made this thread he would have been called a noob and get a lot of l2p comments. Well I can see he got a lot of those comments anyway

[ShinTheZero]

Die OP, just die.
You think, that Havoc got destroyed through Stimpack Nerf? How horribly wrong.
-5% Base Damage + -2% Weapon Damage won't kill the damage output of both of them. No big deal.

[greghorvath]

Feneckus wrote...

greghorvath wrote...

In other words: why should people care if infitrators are "freakishly powerful"? 

Because any attempt at balancing the game is doomed to fail.

From a lore perspective, wouldn't it make sense if Krogans were the best melee characters ?

Wouldn't it make sense if engineers had the best tech powers ?

Wouldn't it make sense if an Adept had stronger biotics than an infiltrator-biotic hybrid ?

And classes like the Havoc have been ruined because of how dominant his infiltrator cousin was. Worst part is, it barely made any difference on the TGI.

Balancing is a farce that replaces pre-release testing and is something to keep people engaged on the forums. Releasing new characters is a tool to keep the hordes of entitled, instant gratification seeking infants in game. At the risk of sounding rude, I have to say that expecting balancing to actually be meaningful in ME3 MP is very naive.

We have 55 playables atm! Wtf for? Most of them are just different combinations of the same powers... People tend to play the characters and factions  in ways they always do, so they look for the same stuff in the classes with different power combinations. The similarity in playstyle with whatever character, I am convinced, is the reason why many people have tantrums about the Geth and Collector factions. I have problems with neither and I play literally everything (okay, I admit to not playing the scimitar). I may not score top every time, but I hold my ground with any class, any weapon, any faction, any map. …except with the volus*, how people make the pudgy little bastards work is a complete mistery….

You mention sense? There are so many other blatant violations of common sense (my default example is being able to run out of ammo from one gun while having another equipped) that your examples are just grains of sand in a desert. Things that are not worth a second though, imo.

Live and let live, play and let play.

*very good new releases, btw. They require you to adapt and play differently from what you usually do. I just haven’t been able to figure them out just yet…

Modifié par greghorvath, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:37 .

[Rahmiel]

You know what I'd love to see. I'd love to see vanguards and infiltrators not all be saddled with BC and TC. Look at soldiers, engies, sents, and adepts. The entire class doesn't have one go to power, but vanguards and infiltrators do. It would be nice to see some different abilities out there for those classes.

I'm not going to say the game would be better without infiltrators, I've been using my fair share lately, but it's pretty much the same gameplay with both those classes. BC and TC just need to be on some of those classes, and not all of them.

[Dark Tlaloc]

I personally am pretty happy with Infiltrators; when played correctly, I know there's someone on my team who can kill bosses, and will have an easier time at reviving than others. Plus TC is just great from a defensive standpoint. I don't use them exclusively, but I'm glad that they exist.

[UnknownMercenary]

Deerber wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

Yeah, I noticed I tend to play them less and less the more experienced I get with this game.

I agree with pretty much everything, they're completely easy mode.

But no, I don't think the game would be better without them. I think a complete rework of them would be the best thing. It wouldn't be that hard I think... Couple of ideas come to mind:

- make the TC damage bonus only work on the first bullet it's fired. And yes, a single pellet would count as a bullet. So, no freakin' shotgun infiltrators anymore. Infiltrators would retain their "SR assassination kings" feeling, the way it should be imho. And it should have no effect on powers unless specifically built for that (huntress), and in that case it should have no effect on guns.

- Fix the stupid power-abuse by making them suffer the longest of the 2 CDs.

- To compensate and to allow them more mobility on the battlefield, which should be their main feature, imho, undo the duration nerf.

That would take care of it, I think.

I think the actual cloaking feature needs a serious reworking. I'd rather they keep the short duration, but make the AI lose track faster, and reduce the distance at which they hear you while cloaked. I see far too many randoms abuse long cloak durations to hide or run around the enemies while the rest of the team kills everything. Removing the cloak damage duration would hurt playstyles like sniper SI, unless you mean first gunshot and not first action to break cloak. I think capn233 had the right idea for seriously reducing the damage boost and making weapon/power damage one of the cloak's evolutions.

[SpockLives]

My Tactical Cloak Fix:

#1 End the shortened cooldown for breaking cloak early. You get the full cooldown regardless of how long you were cloaked. Now infiltrators care about weight.  Maybe have grenades and stim packs end cloak, as well.

#2 Block all power use during cloak without picking the rank 6 evolution. Want to cast powers while cloaked? Do it like Adrenaline Rush and pick that evolution. (The Huntress might need an exception.)

#3 Remove power damage bonus from Tactical Cloak. (Huntress will need an exception.) Infiltrators are supposed to be a "shooty" class. Don't make their powers better, too.

Now you may balance the game because Infiltrators cannot do everything better than everyone else.

Modifié par SpockLives, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[UnknownMercenary]

So, basically change it back to ME2 Tactical Cloak?

[Deerber]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

Yeah, I noticed I tend to play them less and less the more experienced I get with this game.

I agree with pretty much everything, they're completely easy mode.

But no, I don't think the game would be better without them. I think a complete rework of them would be the best thing. It wouldn't be that hard I think... Couple of ideas come to mind:

- make the TC damage bonus only work on the first bullet it's fired. And yes, a single pellet would count as a bullet. So, no freakin' shotgun infiltrators anymore. Infiltrators would retain their "SR assassination kings" feeling, the way it should be imho. And it should have no effect on powers unless specifically built for that (huntress), and in that case it should have no effect on guns.

- Fix the stupid power-abuse by making them suffer the longest of the 2 CDs.

- To compensate and to allow them more mobility on the battlefield, which should be their main feature, imho, undo the duration nerf.

That would take care of it, I think.

I think the actual cloaking feature needs a serious reworking. I'd rather they keep the short duration, but make the AI lose track faster, and reduce the distance at which they hear you while cloaked. I see far too many randoms abuse long cloak durations to hide or run around the enemies while the rest of the team kills everything. Removing the cloak damage duration would hurt playstyles like sniper SI, unless you mean first gunshot and not first action to break cloak. I think capn233 had the right idea for seriously reducing the damage boost and making weapon/power damage one of the cloak's evolutions.

Yes, I meant first gunshot. I think powers shouldn't be affected by TC.

Also, I agree completely on the AI response rework, but that might need a bit of work, I think.

And I didn't bother reading through the whole thread, so I didn't see capn233's suggestion. I know, my bad... Sorry about that :happy:

[UnknownMercenary]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/343/index/15166895/12#15171122

He does a lot of good theorycrafting posts.

[RB26D3TT]

Jesus Christ, why are you kids so cranky? Why the f would you post this crap on forums? Don't like the GI? DON'T PLAY WITH IT. Don't like one on the team? KICK HIM. All this theoretical forum crap is just so annoying. This is JUST A GAME, enjoy it and don't ruin fun for others.

[greghorvath]

RB26D3TT wrote...

Jesus Christ, why are you kids so cranky? Why the f would you post this crap on forums? Don't like the GI? DON'T PLAY WITH IT. Don't like one on the team? KICK HIM. All this theoretical forum crap is just so annoying. This is JUST A GAME, enjoy it and don't ruin fun for others.

This is the tl;dr version of what I was saying.

[SpockLives]

Infiltrators are too powerful and break game balance. The Krysae and Piranha were nerfed because of Infiltrators. Nerfing them will end the gun nerfs.

[taplonaplo]

OP is 6 months late to the party.

Just cut the crap with the retarded cooldown coalescing. No amount of number tweaking will keep the class in line as long as it's there.

[Kenadian]

Deerber wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

Yeah, I noticed I tend to play them less and less the more experienced I get with this game.

I agree with pretty much everything, they're completely easy mode.

But no, I don't think the game would be better without them. I think a complete rework of them would be the best thing. It wouldn't be that hard I think... Couple of ideas come to mind:

- make the TC damage bonus only work on the first bullet it's fired. And yes, a single pellet would count as a bullet. So, no freakin' shotgun infiltrators anymore. Infiltrators would retain their "SR assassination kings" feeling, the way it should be imho. And it should have no effect on powers unless specifically built for that (huntress), and in that case it should have no effect on guns.

- Fix the stupid power-abuse by making them suffer the longest of the 2 CDs.

- To compensate and to allow them more mobility on the battlefield, which should be their main feature, imho, undo the duration nerf.

That would take care of it, I think.

This right here is an issue. There's nothing wrong with shotgun infiltrators. They represent the close-up assassin type. It should be a single shot, including all pellets.  Why in God's name would you take away the most popular play style for an entire ****ing class?

ShinTheZero wrote...

Die OP, just die.
You think, that Havoc got destroyed through Stimpack Nerf? How horribly wrong.
-5% Base Damage + -2% Weapon Damage won't kill the damage output of both of them. No big deal.

First, **** off with the "go die" comments. Second, the damage nerfs don't hurt the Ghost in anyway. The Havoc didn't need a damage nerf in anyway, however, so it adversely affects him.

Modifié par Kenadian, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:25 .

[Uh Cold]

People, they are stupid.

[Cohen le Barbare]

It'd like to see tactical cloak as a tactical advantage, not as a DPS buff power.

4a and 6a are great as I find them really close to tactics, but the others not so much. The bottom rank is all about damage output. The only one I kind of like is the melee one, since you have to be upclose, it has risks, but the sniper one is just redundant.

How about a rank that allows you to hack/disable faster, make a drone escort go faster? I realize this can't be done without a patch but I wish TC was something else.

[K_O_513]

When did all of this "I hate Infiltratorz!" stuff start? No one was complaining about any Infiltrator other than the TGI and now all of a sudden everyone is calling for nerfs? Lol

[Uh Cold]

Cohen le Barbare wrote...

It'd like to see tactical cloak as a tactical advantage, not as a DPS buff power.

4a and 6a are great as I find them really close to tactics, but the others not so much. The bottom rank is all about damage output. The only one I kind of like is the melee one, since you have to be upclose, it has risks, but the sniper one is just redundant.

How about a rank that allows you to hack/disable faster, make a drone escort go faster? I realize this can't be done without a patch but I wish TC was something else.

I remember when I used to think engineers hacked / disabled devices faster than the other classes because you know common sense from game transition.
Objective classes would be fun in ME4.

*edit*
Also nice 12 credits, I see you are saving up.

Modifié par Uh Cold, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[Feneckus]

RB26D3TT wrote...

Jesus Christ, why are you kids so cranky? Why the f would you post this crap on forums? Don't like the GI? DON'T PLAY WITH IT. Don't like one on the team? KICK HIM. All this theoretical forum crap is just so annoying. This is JUST A GAME, enjoy it and don't ruin fun for others.

Ironic considering an infiltrator did ruin the Havoc Soldier.