611 réponses à ce sujet

[Fortack]

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm not sure I understand.  What would be the problem with Infiltrators using their powers like any other class?  Either using Energy Drain -> waiting for cooldown -> Tac Cloak - shoot, or Tac Cloak (speced for Rank 6 power use) --> Energy Drain --> shoot.  I really don't understand why Tac Cloak should grant the ability to use a power for free no matter how it is speced.

One-shot the enemies in a single cloak cycle.  Not take two shots or use a power and wait a while, then take a shot.  If infiltrators are assassins, then they should probably be able to assassinate an enemy, at least a mid-tier.  You weren't going to be "one-shotting" Hunters on up, and certainly not a Phantom.

If you are in 100% shield gate land, then if you waste time in between stripping shields and taking a shot, then they might regen 1hp of shield, and you are back to square one.

This is my speculation about why they did it.  If you look at the original classes and the game back then, you were talking about Energy Drain or Sabotage.  Neither of which also debuffed the target for more weapon damage, and neither of which was actually effective on both shields and health, and neither was effective against armor.

BW could have easily designed TC's tree in a way that meant one had to chose between extra weapon damage or casting a power while cloaked. That way the player had to chose between being good at taking out low-mid level enemies in one cloak cycle OR being highly effective at taking out the big - massive HP - enemies with a nice weapon damage boost.

[Ezlo86]

RB26D3TT wrote...

Found a video. Judging by his voice he is not legaly allowed to play this game. Nuff said.

Lol, the level of b*tthurtness is high with this one. Don't usually report, but this one was pretty stupid.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

Well, that's one way to look at it. The other way would be to ask why Stim Packs (or even Hunter Mode) behave the same way for two differently specced (purposed?) classes,. If survivability is considered the paramout reason bestowing Stim Packs on to the new Turian classes, it could very well be argued that the Havoc soldier needs more survivability than the Ghost. The reasoning behind the copy-pasting of skills this way across different classes and then to debate as if there has to be some sense of balance across those classess seems to elude my brain at the moment.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

I'd accept it if the first thing that the infiltrator used ended the damage bonus on the Tactical Cloak (all I really want is a damage bonus on my one sniper shot). But for this to work across the board, maybe there needs to be an evolution that places a choice between "damage duration" vs. "damage" (instead of, what is it now, the constant 2 seconds of damage duration?). Maybe even the cooldown need not be clipped at 3 seconds at the lower end, i.e. more the weight (in addition to how long you spend in cloak), the proportionally greater time you spend in cooldown.

Can't get a clear thought on it though. The idea of "balance" scrambles my mind - just the scale of it; can't get a clear picture of what it is even supposed to mean....

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators.

The Infiltrator as an idea is an extremely cool one to me. So decidedly disagreed.

[Tankcommander]

Planetside 2 has taken my love of Infiltrators and maximized it. So no. In ME3MP they are poorly done, yes, but in SP and in other games they are beast.

Everyone is complaining about their versatility....but that is what they are supposed to be. Their two weakness in any other game - inability to deal with vehicles and weak CQC combat - is not present in ME3. There are no enemies in which the infiltrator can't deal with in ME3.

That being said, the cloak for other games almost always works, that is, you can usually lose the enemies dogging you. In the current-state ME3, the cloak is almost pointless because most enemies ignore it. Hence why everyone goes damage.

So, if we got the vanilla cloak back, the one that worked, and then see a damage reduction for all weapons with a slight buff for snipers, it would be good. But in current state? The damage bonus is really all Infltrators have going for them.

Modifié par Tankcommander, 05 décembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Dalis918]

I'm good with anything that makes me more snipy. That's what my Infiltrator is for, that is my role, also perhaps give slight edge to picking people up while in stealth, give it a support function + sniper bonus damage and take away power damage. I also actually like the idea that classes get passive sort of benefits that befit them, Soldiers do slightly more base damage for all weapons and have more shielding, Engie's get to cause slightly more damage with their techie's and add to hacking speed more effectively, Adepts are more asplody with their biobreakers, Vanguard have slightly more shield and shotgun damage. Have these passive benefits regardless of actual spec to give incentive to actually play the class in that role, since people seem to quite often bring up Turian Ghost Infi's going all turguard on people.

Likely this post will get a degree of derision but hey, there's been lots of that in this thread already.

Note having the engie's give more hacking I tend to extend to the build 4 additional pylons objective. It's techy stuff. It gives incentive to have a mix of classes:ph34r:

Modifié par Dalis918, 05 décembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Dark Tlaloc]

Dalis918 wrote...

I'm good with anything that makes me more snipy. That's what my Infiltrator is for, that is my role, also perhaps give slight edge to picking people up while in stealth, give it a support function + sniper bonus damage and take away power damage. I also actually like the idea that classes get passive sort of benefits that befit them, Soldiers do slightly more base damage for all weapons and have more shielding, Engie's get to cause slightly more damage with their techie's and add to hacking speed more effectively, Adepts are more asplody with their biobreakers, Vanguard have slightly more shield and shotgun damage. Have these passive benefits regardless of actual spec to give incentive to actually play the class in that role, since people seem to quite often bring up Turian Ghost Infi's going all turguard on people.

Likely this post will get a degree of derision but hey, there's been lots of that in this thread already.

Note having the engie's give more hacking I tend to extend to the build 4 additional pylons objective. It's techy stuff. It gives incentive to have a mix of classes:ph34r:

I don’t mind this idea, although I think that it’s a little
late for it at this point in MP’s life cycle (I’d assume it would require a
massive patch, and would also require countless hours of play-testing). Perhaps
something they should looking into for ME4. That being said, I happen to like the
Ghost, thank you very much!

[dmurphy8A5]

Ok so here's a thought on how TC could maybe fixed or at least allow for better choice to make it a more niche ability. From what I can tell the two evos that are of the biggest debate are the duration/damage evo and the specific damage (rank 6)/extra power evo. This would take some doing but perhaps on rank 4 have a choice between damage bonus and cloak effectiveness. The cloak effectiveness would determine how easily enemies can see you, i.e. without the cloak effectiveness upgrade at close range it would do little to hide you from ANY enemy. Maybe it could slightly lower the probability of an enemy hitting you but only very slightly. Though if you chose the cloak effectiveness upgrade then you could damn near dance next to a banshee and she wouldn't have a clue. The damage bonus for this rank could be made to be specific to sniper/shotgun/AR depending on the class and remain at 80%. This way infis could still put out big damage but it would be slightly less than currently and specific to a class of weapon. This would keep with the idea of an infiltrator being a weapon expert and better than a soldier as far as DPS but only because they have focused on a single weapon type. Rank 6 could become a choice between duration and the ability to fire an extra power while cloaked. Overall this would allow for a reduction in the general power of TC but would allow for greater specialization. Though this particular mapping of these evo to the specific ranks may not be the best and could certainly be played with.

[Eelectrica]

A duration spec infiltratror should be a lot less 'visible' then a damage specced infiltrator.
They can be field medics, cap objectives etc - just like an infiltrator.
Damage is being sacrificed for utility afterall.

[Chrxna]

If it were up to me, I'd lower TC's damage bonus to 30% at most. Fortunately for most, it is not up to me.

[Kentation]

ArchFox-GX wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

I- I thought you guys liked my invisibility and sniper rifle profeciency.

[NavySEALCommand]

While I believe that Infiltrator do have a purpose to fill in the grand scheme of things that is ME3 MP, the problem is more the fact that generally all Infiltrators are superior to their counterparts, because of the reasons that Feneckus has listed.

Now, IMHO, the biggest problem with Tactical Cloak is the cooldown. I could care less about a one time damage boost (in fact, that perfectly fine for a sniper or a CQC assassin-type class), but the ability to use your powers faster than other classes that can also use a damage boost is broken,

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right. It's just that it's the easiest class to play with, so you see a lot of people use them. I don't mind when other people are infiltrators because it means that I probably won't have to revive them as often and they might help out on the 4 hack objective.

Back when Geth Infiltrator came out, it was the only class I used for awhile and it got me to start playing gold. After I was comfortable I started using other classes and now can pretty much use whatever I feel like.

I might have completely missed the point of the post because I didn't really read it, but here's my two cents.

[RoundedPlanet88]

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right. It's just that it's the easiest class to play with, so you see a lot of people use them. I don't mind when other people are infiltrators because it means that I probably won't have to revive them as often and they might help out on the 4 hack objective.

Back when Geth Infiltrator came out, it was the only class I used for awhile and it got me to start playing gold. After I was comfortable I started using other classes and now can pretty much use whatever I feel like.

I might have completely missed the point of the post because I didn't really read it, but here's my two cents.

Lol, I want your pugs then. The amount of pug inifiltrators that I see that actually acknowlledge, much less HELP with revives and objectives can be counted on one hand........With four missing fingers.......and thats cumalative since launch

[SpockLives]

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

[RoundedPlanet88]

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

Randoms unskilled? Inconcievable! surely you jest?

[Cyonan]

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

Geth Infiltrator damage output is way too high! It should be brought down to the levels of my damage output clearly. Their durability is fine, though.

Signed,

Krogan Vanguard

[Xaijin]

Liens wrote...

What if infiltrators are one and only balanced class? Others need some serious help? °,..,°

Fagnan already said as much in a thread very much like this one. The logistical work in bringing everyone else up to same level of utility and synergized throughput is out of their purview and scope.

That's just how it is.

[K_O_513]

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

But it does mean that skill, at the end of the day, will be the deciding factor more times than not. And that's the point.

[MerryMadMick]

Infiltrators have saved my ass too many times for any hate.

[TheThirdSpectre]

U MAD BRO!?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Just kidding. I like the Infiltrator class, but yes, they are responsible for some of the nerfs.

[Shampoohorn]

Rad_Rage wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

But it does mean that skill, at the end of the day, will be the deciding factor more times than not. And that's the point.

The skill range of players is huge though.  In a group of players with roughly the same ability, infiltrators are odds on favorites to outperform other kits.

The very best and (and very worst:pinched:) players are probably exceptions to this, but they're playing well beyond the ability of even the game mechanics to keep up with.  And they represent about 0.01% of the community besides.

[DeathIsHere]

Feneckus wrote...

I'm sick of Infiltrators.

- First, the Geth Engineer got nerfed because of the GI's godliness. It was quite a small nerf, but it was definitely more noticeable on the GE. It didn't make any difference on the GI.

- Now, the Havoc has been nerfed because of the Ghost. He was one of the only true tanks in the game (Kroguard and Novaguard being the other ones). His damage output wasn't that great though. But because of the monstruosity known as the Ghost Infiltrator, he can still tank but not as effectively and his damage output is even lower.

Because Infiltrators are so godly, what was probably the worst soldier in the game got nerfed. Ridiculous. The pitiful buffs to Havoc Strike are completely irrelevant.

- Several weapons were nerfed specifically because of how broken they were on infiltrators (Krysae, Piranha, maybe some others)

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it.  It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

- They're the best soldiers, the best engineers and if the Huntress' cloak weren't broken, they'd have the best biotic as well. You could also argue they actually have more survivibility than Sentinels (definitely true for the GI/SI). A melee GI is a thousand times better than a melee Krogan (seriously, WTF ?). They're the best medics and the best for device/kill objectives. They also don't really care about map/enemy, they'll dominate anyone/anywhere.

ME3 would have been a much better game without Infiltrators. 

I disagree completely. Just because you don't like a class (for whatever reason) doesn't mean it's wrong for other people to like a class or that the class should be completely removed. Are some infiltrators OP? Sure. GI and TGI for certain. I don't think MQI and SI are overpowered, they don't have secondary weapon buff powers like HM/SP and actually take a bit of skill to get working effectively. They can be some of the best in the game but not overpowered/broken. If they're OP, so are some Vanguards (Novaguard and Krogaurd for sure, Slayer is close to that list).

The issue with GE and Havoc getting nerfed because of their respective Infiltrator brethren, that's the infiltrator's fault. It's Bioware's fault and it actually brings light to the fact that they need to separate these powers. It's possible (as seen with the Arc Grenades for MQs and Paladin) so they should be doing that in a patch. Because while it does hurt the GE and the Havoc that HM and SPs got nerfed, when you look at how the infiltrators were performing with those powers as they were this entire forum was begging for those nerfs. Bioware gave them those powers and they shouldn't have. To say all infiltrators should be removed from the game because of that? That's just ridiculous. I don't good you are and how sick of infiltrators you are, this is a game for everybody and it's pretty clear the consensus is against removing infiltrators.

[K_O_513]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Rad_Rage wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

But it does mean that skill, at the end of the day, will be the deciding factor more times than not. And that's the point.

The skill range of players is huge though.  In a group of players with roughly the same ability, infiltrators are odds on favorites to outperform other kits.

The very best and (and very worst:pinched:) players are probably exceptions to this, but they're playing well beyond the ability of even the game mechanics to keep up with.  And they represent about 0.01% of the community besides.

I don't believe that (nor have I experienced it). I mean, they way people on here talk about PUGs (which represent the majority of the playerbase) you would think most players are bad. Even in my own experience (I don't mean to sound like I'm gloating), players using Infiltrators are usually more useless than helpful, just as they would be with any other kit. And if you want to go by score, even TGI's and GI's (on the rare occasions that I encounter them) never outscore me.

Basically my point is that player skill is the one variable that is not equal between all. We can both have the same character specced the same way using the same equipment and weapons but that doesn't mean we will get identical or even similar results.

[khankar]

SpockLives wrote...

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...

Too much BS to shift through, but a lot of other classes can do just as well if you use them right.

Then please explain to me which other classes can be used to complete 10 minute platinum speed runs?  Because so far, it hasn't been done without Infiltrators.

The ability to outscore a random person playing Infiltrator while you are playing something else does not translate to other classes being just as powerful.  Just means random people are unskilled.

GI has a high DPS but at the expense of limited shields/health. SI has similar issues but to a lesser extent. Seems like a fair tradeoff.

[sliverofamoon]

Rad_Rage wrote...

When did all of this "I hate Infiltratorz!" stuff start? No one was complaining about any Infiltrator other than the TGI and now all of a sudden everyone is calling for nerfs? Lol

It's been this way since ME3 introduced multiplayer. It just hasn't been vocalized as loudly by the same minority until yesterday's balance changes because it made an impact on the new Turian Soldier. Things were so blissfully peaceful regarding Infiltrators for so long, I've been wondering what new nerf would bring back this s.hitstorm of people crying  to nerf TC even more than it has been already.