611 réponses à ce sujet

[SpockLives]

This is not about being tired of a kit. This is not about disliking a kit. This is not about "adjusting" to different play-styles.

This is about nerfs that attempt to balance Infiltrators end up hurting other classes more, and leaving the Infiltrator as still the superior option in terms of raw damage output.

I.E. Geth Engineer and Turian Havoc.

Please, someone tell me that they can perform just as well with those 2 kits after the nerfs to Hunter mode and Stim Packs as they could before. Because the GI and TGI are still just as good as ever, in spite of the nerfs.

What do the OP kits all have in common? Tactical Cloak.

[Kenadian]

SpockLives wrote...

This is not about being tired of a kit. This is not about disliking a kit. This is not about "adjusting" to different play-styles.

This is about nerfs that attempt to balance Infiltrators end up hurting other classes more, and leaving the Infiltrator as still the superior option in terms of raw damage output.

I.E. Geth Engineer and Turian Havoc.

Please, someone tell me that they can perform just as well with those 2 kits after the nerfs to Hunter mode and Stim Packs as they could before. Because the GI and TGI are still just as good as ever, in spite of the nerfs.

What do the OP kits all have in common? Tactical Cloak.

Pre-nerf Destroyer had TC?

[capn233]

Jamesui wrote...

I'm starting to think the infiltrators should have been released with cloned versions of existing powers instead of shared versions. Then the support powers they get that can make them OP can be adjusted without castrating other classes in the process.

The justification can be that the tech supporting their cloak edges out the full versions of whatever powers stim packs/overload/hunter mode or whatever.

Or simply that since they are a hybrid class they shouldn't be quite as good at tech or weapons as the respective pure classes.  Except when they are able to exploit the synergy between their tech and powers.  And that should not necessarily result in game-leading damage.

[SpockLives]

Kenadian wrote...

Pre-nerf Destroyer had TC?

True, you did find an OP character that wasn't an Infiltrator.  He shared no powers with anyone else, so the nerf damaged no one else.

I guess it's simply a matter of terrible game design regarding GI, MQI, TGI, and SI (to a lesser extent). 

FQI used to be OP, but they nerfed Sabotage.  Now it isn't worth taking on Quarian Marksman.

[Evil Often Wins]

SpockLives wrote...

This is not about being tired of a kit. This is not about disliking a kit. This is not about "adjusting" to different play-styles.

This is about nerfs that attempt to balance Infiltrators end up hurting other classes more, and leaving the Infiltrator as still the superior option in terms of raw damage output.

I.E. Geth Engineer and Turian Havoc.

Please, someone tell me that they can perform just as well with those 2 kits after the nerfs to Hunter mode and Stim Packs as they could before. Because the GI and TGI are still just as good as ever, in spite of the nerfs.

What do the OP kits all have in common? Tactical Cloak.

My GE is just fine thanks, I don't feel that the Hunter Mode nerf did too much to him at all.  The Havoc on the other hand I never liked too much anyway. I do have a question though, what is the max amount of shields that stim packs can give now?

[aimimia]

I would like people to state specific reasons to why they thing the TC should(n't) be nerfed, and to what they want it. Saying something is OP or not isn't really an argument, it's a point of view. I personally suck with the GI , but others have scored me with it by over 120k+( I got 120k, they got 240k+) SO

1- state why TC Should/shouldn't b nerfed

2- State possible fixes

[Abraham_uk]

aimimia wrote...

I would like people to state specific reasons to why they thing the TC should(n't) be nerfed, and to what they want it. Saying something is OP or not isn't really an argument, it's a point of view. I personally suck with the GI , but others have scored me with it by over 120k+( I got 120k, they got 240k+) SO

1- state why TC Should/shouldn't b nerfed

2- State possible fixes

It's not the infiltrator class that should be nerfed.
It's the players. They're just too awesome!

So for the sake of balance. Please make some mistakes once in a while.
Drink some booze so that useless players can get more points.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 06 décembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Xaijin]

aimimia wrote...

I would like people to state specific reasons to why they thing the TC should(n't) be nerfed, and to what they want it. Saying something is OP or not isn't really an argument, it's a point of view. I personally suck with the GI , but others have scored me with it by over 120k+( I got 120k, they got 240k+) SO

1- state why TC Should/shouldn't b nerfed

2- State possible fixes

Did that four months ago, not really keen to write it all out again.

[SpockLives]

@aimimia, sure I'll list my solutions again.

SpockLives wrote...

My Tactical Cloak Fix:

#1 End the shortened cooldown for breaking cloak early. You get the full cooldown regardless of how long you were cloaked. Now infiltrators care about weight.  Maybe have grenades and stim packs end cloak, as well.

#2 Block all power use during cloak without picking the rank 6 evolution.  Want to cast powers while cloaked? Do it like Adrenaline Rush and pick that evolution. (The Huntress might need an exception.)

#3 Remove power damage bonus from Tactical Cloak. (Huntress will need an exception.) Infiltrators are supposed to be a "shooty" class. Don't make their powers better, too.

Now you may balance the game because Infiltrators cannot do everything better than everyone else.

Why grant exceptions to the Huntress?  Because her cloak is bugged and only gives power damage bonus, not weapon damage.

I'm ok with Infiltrators being good with powers OR weapons, not both.

Modifié par SpockLives, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Feneckus]

megabeast37215 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

How would the majority of you guys feel if you couldn't cast powers out of Tac Cloak ever? It would be JUST for weapon damage, and Infiltrators wouldn't get the free stagger out of their power to setup easy headshots. It would also force Tac Cloak to compete with other cooldowns.

It's an idea...

Feneckus... I'd really like to hear your opinion on this. Could the TC fix be this simple? The implications are far reaching...

It's a pretty good idea. That would make them care about weight and their powers would be exactly the same as the other classes. A GI would have to wait to unleash hell on a target he just debuffed, just like the Turian Soldier.

The Shadow would get screwed big time though. 

[Abraham_uk]

I take it I don't have much time left.
I must exploit the overpoweredness of the infiltrator before the nerfs come in full force.


Heck it's only a matter of time before the warp + incendiary ammo combination get's balanced.

[aimimia]

SpockLives wrote...

@aimimia, sure I'll list my solutions again.

SpockLives wrote...

My Tactical Cloak Fix:

#1 End the shortened cooldown for breaking cloak early. You get the full cooldown regardless of how long you were cloaked. Now infiltrators care about weight.  Maybe have grenades and stim packs end cloak, as well.

#2 Block all power use during cloak without picking the rank 6 evolution.  Want to cast powers while cloaked? Do it like Adrenaline Rush and pick that evolution. (The Huntress might need an exception.)

#3 Remove power damage bonus from Tactical Cloak. (Huntress will need an exception.) Infiltrators are supposed to be a "shooty" class. Don't make their powers better, too.

Now you may balance the game because Infiltrators cannot do everything better than everyone else.

Why grant exceptions to the Huntress?  Because her cloak is bugged and only gives power damage bonus, not weapon damage.

I'm ok with Infiltrators being good with powers OR weapons, not both.

I like you sir, definatly three things I would agree upon

[xJNPSx THE WAGN]

     I think the base damage bonus to everything should be removed, but a 100% bonus to snipers be added to compensate at rank 6. Rank 4 could be small damage bonus, say 10%, or
duration. They could still be potent snipers, as they should be, but let soldiers be the ones who make shotguns/pistols/AR shine.

     Infiltrators (aside from ghost/huntress) should be snipers. They can use shotguns, but just not as good as say a soldier. This would also make the duration bonus more appealing. Then they could, you know, actually infiltrate. I think we have been so blinded by the massive damage bonus that we forgot we are turning invisible.

Modifié par xJNPSx THE WAGN, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[ISHYGDDT]

aimimia wrote...

I would like people to state specific reasons to why they thing the TC should(n't) be nerfed, and to what they want it. Saying something is OP or not isn't really an argument, it's a point of view. I personally suck with the GI , but others have scored me with it by over 120k+( I got 120k, they got 240k+) SO

1- state why TC Should/shouldn't b nerfed

2- State possible fixes

I think I said this in one of the other 12 threads, but anyway

1.  I don't think the weapon damage component of TC should be nerfed.  This is what makes infiltrators efficient boss killers, and I think that this is the niche they should aim to fulfill.  
2.  No use of powers while cloaked, unless you take the bonus power evolution.  I think that's the only necessary change.

[landylan]

If you can't use powers while cloaked, we'll end up playing all the infiltrators the same.

[capn233]

How many powers do you get to use under cloak with Bonus Power, if you break the ability to use a power under vanilla cloak? This matters to the Shadow at least as much as the other infiltrators.

[Sinapus]

Feneckus wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

How would the majority of you guys feel if you couldn't cast powers out of Tac Cloak ever? It would be JUST for weapon damage, and Infiltrators wouldn't get the free stagger out of their power to setup easy headshots. It would also force Tac Cloak to compete with other cooldowns.

It's an idea...

Feneckus... I'd really like to hear your opinion on this. Could the TC fix be this simple? The implications are far reaching...

It's a pretty good idea. That would make them care about weight and their powers would be exactly the same as the other classes. A GI would have to wait to unleash hell on a target he just debuffed, just like the Turian Soldier.

The Shadow would get screwed big time though. 

Some of us take advantage of the cooldown shortening to run from point to point under duration cloak. Taking that away because you find the damage specialists getting a bonus for cloaking and immediately firing too annoying for you will only result in duration cloak users getting screwed worse with the even higher cooldown times.

Hm. Let me see... another bunch of whingeing starts about the "OP" damage TC can provide and the "reasonable" solution will once again screw those who don't use the "OP" damage options.

No sale.

[Schw4ng1n]

This thread reminds me of a previous thread...

Annomander wrote...

Usually goes something like this...

Lord_Sirian    14:35:45
pfft

[KroSent vs GI discussion...]

Lord_Sirian    14:41:28
TC doesnt cloak you

Annomander_UK    14:41:31
melee kills grant fewer points than shooting / power kills

Lord_Sirian    14:41:32
might as well rename it to

Lord_Sirian    14:41:36
tactical damage boost

[and so on]

[ISHYGDDT]

capn233 wrote...

How many powers do you get to use under cloak with Bonus Power, if you break the ability to use a power under vanilla cloak? This matters to the Shadow at least as much as the other infiltrators.

Just the one.  Admittedly, the Shadow kind of gets the raw end of the deal here, but she also has 2 unique powers that can be buffed to compensate.

landylan wrote...

If you can't use powers while cloaked, we'll end up playing all the infiltrators the same.

On the contrary, right now hardly anyone who realizes you can get a free power while coming out of cloak uses the bonus power evolution (except with the shadow.)  This change makes it worthwhile.  However the sniping evolution is also worthwhile, which means that you actually have a dilemma.  Some people might even say that they want the fitness more than a 'free' power use and stop at rank 4 like they do now without incurring any penalties.  

EDITED for Sinapus

Modifié par ISHYGDDT, 06 décembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[JGDD]

Feneckus wrote...

The Shadow would get screwed big time though. 

Think you meant the player base didn't you? There aren't as many top tier players out there abusing TC as you make it out to be and most are probably on your FL. Face it, TC works as is for a larger pool of players vs. the shiny few that can make any infiltrator into a god of destruction. I still see PUG players that can use an infiltrator with all the right stuff and eat more dirt than another skilled player using something considerably more gimped in damage output.

Thankfully, BioWare tends to use in-game analysis and internal testing to ferret out what is or is not exceeding their goals for certain classes. Honestly I don't see that many people using infiltrators that much any more.

Modifié par justgimmedudedammit, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[Sammorbai]

Lathrim wrote...

Tactical Cloak needs to be redesigned from scratch, not nerfed, buffed or left as it is.

Tactical Cloak doesn't need to be redesigned from scratch, there's already a perfectly viable Tactical Cloak design out there: the Tactical Cloak from ME2.  It had a constant cooldown regardless of whether you broke it early or ran out the full duration, so in ME3 weapon weight would matter.  It didn't allow the use of powers while it was active, so we wouldn't have the issue of it cranking the damage on Proximity Mine or Overload.  When you activated it every enemy (with the exception of the Geth Colossus, Oculus, and Thresher Maw) completely forgot you existed, stopped firing at you, and wouldn't fire at/melee/follow you until after you uncloaked.  It was the best tool possible for lining up perfect shots or relocating to a better vantage point.  In short, it let an Infiltrator do exactly what the name says: infiltrate.

As much as I love the Infiltrator as it stands, if they restored Tactical Cloak to its original base duration and changed it to match the ME2 Tactical Cloak I'd be one happy camper.  Possibly emphasis on camper.

Modifié par Sammorbai, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:54 .

[Quething]

SpockLives wrote...

My Tactical Cloak Fix:

#1 End the shortened cooldown for breaking cloak early. You get the full cooldown regardless of how long you were cloaked. Now infiltrators care about weight.  Maybe have grenades and stim packs end cloak, as well.

#2 Block all power use during cloak without picking the rank 6 evolution.  Want to cast powers while cloaked? Do it like Adrenaline Rush and pick that evolution. (The Huntress might need an exception.)

#3 Remove power damage bonus from Tactical Cloak. (Huntress will need an exception.) Infiltrators are supposed to be a "shooty" class. Don't make their powers better, too.

Now you may balance the game because Infiltrators cannot do everything better than everyone else.

Why grant exceptions to the Huntress?  Because her cloak is bugged and only gives power damage bonus, not weapon damage.

I'm ok with Infiltrators being good with powers OR weapons, not both.

I think it'd be better to give them a choice, like vanguards have. Shadows and, IDK, Ghosts could choose between melee and weapon damage, everyone else could choose between weapon and power. They are technically a tech/soldier hybrid, and if you want to build your quarian as a tech-spamming murder train that sounds reasonable to me. +80% damage on arc nades or backfire is still pretty crazy, but without the +80% Claymore blasts every cooldown to supplement, it's much nearer the reasonable kind of crazy.

Ideally actually I'd put a generic 10-15% everything boost on the first rank of both Charge and Cloak and adjust the damage of the later more specific evolutions accordingly. As a primary vanguard player I know how much the lack of that base boost is bullspit, so I wouldn't want to do the same to infiltrators.

On that same note, as a vanguard, I know how much the lack of power synergy in a class is total bullspit, too, so I'd be careful about any fix to cooldown abuse. I think the best solution is to still let powers be used within Cloak even without 6a, but to impose either the longer of the two cooldowns, or as you suggest, to use the Cloak cooldown but always impose the max cooldown instead of letting duration-in-cloak impact it. If Cloak locks out power use, you get stuck with the TSol's Proxy or the novaguard's Shockwave, and that's just bad game design.

Modifié par Quething, 06 décembre 2012 - 02:51 .