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[DullahansXMark]

RoundedPlanet88 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...
Dammit! I told them to de-cloak first!

Were you sure that they were there? or were they cloaked 20 feet  away and insisting that they were helping with the hack?

We'll have to wait until a Dragoon wave to be sure. They'll see him if he's there.

[RoundedPlanet88]

DullahansXMark wrote...

We'll have to wait until a Dragoon wave to be sure. They'll see him if he's there.

*wince* too true

[Farosyrn]

Annomander wrote...

Farosyrn wrote...

Why don't we just make this some sort of CoD thing...only difference in kits & classes should be the looks! No powers, no skilltrees, just the weapon and your triggerfinger.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, cloak is far too powerful a tool as it currently stands. Feneckus raised some brilliant points.

No matter what way you look at it, infiltrators (take your pick) are the best characters at EVERYTHING.

Ghost: better damage than most soldiers, and survival than a krogan sentinel.

GI: better melee damage than a krogan, better damage output than any soldier.

Huntress: great biotic, will become RIDICULOUSLY overpowered versus virtually everything once the fools @ bioware HQ add 80% damage bonus. Ohai there, Miss "I one clip a possessed praetorian with a reegar".

I know what you're saying, I simply disagree with you; the way cloak works -and you make it a point to explain that in detail whenever the issue about cloak comes up- it's not an I-Win button. The invisibility is very meh - it is definitely great to switch positions, which is where it is meant to shine (unless you're up against Geth, that is. Then you are just stunlo..., err, screwed).
The damage bonus is what snipers need to work - or is there a non infiltrator kit you equip sniper rifles on just because they are genuinly the best choice? And I mean a real sniper-sniper, not a stasis-sniper, all though I guess that would be too lame for you anyway, which it is.
And yes, an infiltrator does more damage than a soldier under certain circumstances. Which is what he is supposed to do - play him smart, hit hard, don't get shot, in close quarters or from afar. Soldiers just work differently: With a destroyer you stand behind your right hand corner and grill everything with a PPR. That's something entirely different.

Huntress...well, yes. I do understand your concern regarding the buffed huntress. It's been my favourite character over the last week, and I don't need no stinkin' damage bonus that will leave everybody screaming bloody murder (literally, harr!). As for the reegar + warp + incendiary 'exploit', that's almost as lame as missile glitching. Same thing on a Valkyrie, though.

Already gave my opinion of GI melee. Just not really PUG viable. Yes, that does count for something in my opinion.

Ghost, no argument from me there. That's always been the class I would take out after a really, really bad day, just because I knew nothing could go wrong however crappy I played.

And complaining about the SI...seriously? The guy is fine. Not like the Krogan Vanguard for example. I really hope you never, ever touch that guy, because that would really make me doubt the integrity of your anti-infiltrator campaign...

[OblivionDawn]

This was a topic of much debate and little consequence back in the early days of ME3MP.

And now it's of little debate, and even less consequence.

[Dalis918]

DullahansXMark wrote...

doozerdude wrote...

Old infils were fine, problem is, all the new kits are a little more powerful than the old ones (with a few exceptions), and this seems to be exponential with the infils. It's the NEW infils that ruin everything

Good point. Did the Human Infiltrator seem overpowered? LOL no. Salarian Infiltrator? He was good, but he had his ups and downs just like any other class. Quarian? She can hack synthetics, sure, but she wasn't too useful aside from that. It wasn't until the Geth came out that things got out of hand.

I resent that. I can do more than just hack Synths. I can shoot them in the head too!

[thearbiter1337]

As a QFI player

Touch my Infiltrators then i'm going after your precious KroGuards/Volus/N7 Fury/Cerb Harrier

[Samihazah]

Dalis918 wrote...
I resent that. I can do more than just hack Synths. I can shoot them in the head too!

I spot what You did there.

[Cyonan]

spudspot wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

You ignore that the main reason the Turian Soldier isn't spamming Proxy Mine is because he's using Marksman, which is a far better damage increase than Tactical Cloak is.

Really? 

Define better damage increase? Granted, it boosts your burst dps pretty well, but so does cloak which doesn't prevent you from firing a possibly available debuff. (That gets the damage bonus as well...)

Marksman is a 50% multiplicative DPS boost, in addition to the accuracy for certain weapons. TC is 80% of base weapon damage, plus a 25% multiplicative bonus only if taking Sniper Rifles in which case you've dropped some damage output anyway by choice of weapons class.

Turian Soldiers tend to fire Proxy Mine for the debuff before using Marksman, and Quarian Marksmen will do the same with Tactical Scan.

They're both fine damage boosts, but Marksman actually is better unless the character with TC has abilities that work in perfect synergy with each other such as the GI. TGI gets a free pass since his cloak is different and he can take a 25% multiplicative bonus on some of the best weapons in the game, the Harrier/PPR.

[DullahansXMark]

Dalis918 wrote...

DullahansXMark wrote...

doozerdude wrote...

Old infils were fine, problem is, all the new kits are a little more powerful than the old ones (with a few exceptions), and this seems to be exponential with the infils. It's the NEW infils that ruin everything

Good point. Did the Human Infiltrator seem overpowered? LOL no. Salarian Infiltrator? He was good, but he had his ups and downs just like any other class. Quarian? She can hack synthetics, sure, but she wasn't too useful aside from that. It wasn't until the Geth came out that things got out of hand.

I resent that. I can do more than just hack Synths. I can shoot them in the head too!

I meant aside from the usual Infiltrator routine, lol

[Feneckus]

dumdum2 wrote...

This is true. I would say that I am decent with the GI for an average player, if I use my GI on U/U/G when playing with randoms I usually end up between 200-250k in score. And then I can suddenly change my class to a non infiltrator class while having randoms in the game that plays with GI and/or TGI, still average around 200k in points with non infiltrator classes even though the guys who played GI and TGI should have outscored me by a huge margin. 

Remembered just now a game I had a while back with three of my friends, they are all good players (way above average) and we did Platinum Goddess Geth. In the team we had 2 Geth Infiltrators with the Pirahna and 1 Turian Ghost with the Harrier. I was playing my Human Sentinel. Guess the outcome? Human Sentinel topped the board with 40-50k more points than the second player on the board.

So what ? That's completely irrelevant.

Farosyrn wrote...


I know what you're saying, I simply disagree with you; the way cloak works -and you make it a point to explain that in detail whenever the issue about cloak comes up- it's not an I-Win button. The invisibility is very meh

It does work 95% of the time if you cloak out of sight of the enemy. Besides, worst case scenario, you "only" get 80% damage bonus and a big eff you to cooldowns. Still pretty damn good. No other class can do that.

The damage bonus is what snipers need to work - or is there a non infiltrator kit you equip sniper rifles on just because they are genuinly the best choice? And I mean a real sniper-sniper, not a stasis-sniper

Geth Trooper, Human Soldier, Turian Soldier are great snipers.

[Blarg]

Y'know what? I'm with Feneckus. As much as I outright love infiltrators, the impact they have on other classes has gone too far. TC should not have a damage bonus (in which case it would have to be set that you could not be detected at all while cloaked) and have a set cooldown, with no cancelling.

Honestly, I loved the vanguards and infiltrators of ME1. You know, the ones that didn't have BC or TC, but were rather a mix of soldier-adepts and soldier-engineers, respectively. I want that idea back more than anything. Same goes for original, non-tanky adept-engineer mixed sentinels.

[Constant Motion]

I was going to stumble into this thread to say something along the lines of, "There was a time when I thought they were a little OTT, but since the duration/damage split, they're more or less palatable. Storm in a teacup."

But, looking at the OP... yeah, you're basically right! This bit really got me. Both quotes:

Nissun wrote...

He does have a point:

Feneckus wrote...

- They don't give a damn about cooldowns. A FQI can spam Sabotage every 3s while carrying a Claymore. She can even have a Harrier or Black Widow as backup, with whatever mods, it doesn't matter. A Quarian Soldier with a Hurricane VI (178% cooldown bonus) has to wait 4.63s. And the backfire won't have that ridiculous 80% damage bonus so forget about trying to kill something with it. It doesn't even make sense to spec into Sabotage.

Same thing with proxy mines on the GI/SI. Those guys will get dozens of kills in a single match with them, while the Turian Soldier/Volus Engineer use them mainly for debuffing/crowd control, while having a longer cooldown. How is that balanced ?

This is a fact. The Turian Soldier is, well, a soldier. He is supposed to carry heavy weapons. Which can leave him with up to 7 second cooldown for his abilities. Proximity mine and Marksman have zero sinergy, while the Salarian and Geth infiltrators can use cloak and proximity mine seamlessly. That is just not fair.

For all people complain that the Geth faction's cheap, those infiltrators make a lot of things kind of redundant.

Not sure what the solution is. Changing the TC cooldown makes sense. More sense than increasing the cooldown of everything else. I think you need to keep the damage and duration split. I really like that, and it's right that they should be able to hide, or be able to line up powerful shots. It shouldn't be made less fun, just less broken.

But, yes. Good shout.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[Constant Motion]

Air Quotes wrote...

There are no real stealth mechanics in the game. No real utility from cloak. So they have to compensate it with damage buffs and other stuff.

There are, though. I can brazenly run past turrets and chill for a few seconds without getting a scratch.

Which I like. That utility should be preserved. As should the ability to gain damage bonuses from a cloak. Not sure how to solve it.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[Xaijin]

robarcool wrote...

You are opening a can of worms, just saying

He's also correct. Infiltrators were designed too strong to begin with, and are nothing like the glass cannon assassination machines they started out to be.

Behold, the "Nina" effect.

Back in the olden days of tekken, one of the senior producers had a hard on for Nina Williams. Consequently she had one of the highest character outlay budgets every time, and she literally got a version of every new technique any other character got, including brand new characters; up to and including king's reversal multi/switchthrows and a yoshimitsuesque unblocakble stab with her... hand (yes, her hand) that was actually faster and higher priority than yoshi's singature sword stab. Every unique technique that was in the game, Nina got. Every game, without fail. He even came up with a ridiculous cryo-freeze scenario so she wouldn't age.

Infiltrators are pretty much like that.

The two tenets of ME combat are don't get hit and kill things as quickly as possible. Infiltrators are pretty much top dog in both of those categories, bar none.

Strongest melee? Infiltrator.
Highest spike damage? Infiltrator
Highest burst dps? Infiltrator
Universal AoE debuff? Infiltrator
Strongest single target layered debuff? Infiltrator
With the huntress, they even get the highest biotic DoT.
Their defining power both boosts dps output AND refutes targeting and even cancels cool down penalties, and has the highest utility in the game, AND except for escorting has the highest chance of succeeding during objective waves.
Stimpacks give the TGI the ability to operate like a vanguard with none of the inherent risk. In fact, pretty much the opposite.

Essentially, they have almost all the other benefits of most other classes and very few weaknesses, most of which are compensated for with trbl trbl dmg against pretty much everything.

Modifié par Xaijin, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:27 .

[AresKeith]

No I like getting headshots in TC lol

[IronRush]

agreed!

[RoundedPlanet88]

Air Quotes wrote...

Constant Motion wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

There are no real stealth mechanics in the game. No real utility from cloak. So they have to compensate it with damage buffs and other stuff.

There are, though. I can brazenly run past turrets and chill for a few seconds without getting a scratch.

Try doing that against Dragoons. Or Hunters. 

Very doable, slightly more difficult, but still very very doable

[oO Stryfe Oo]

DullahansXMark wrote...

You still don't get it, do you, Feneckus?

You see! The future is all about the Infiltrators. As you have stated, Infiltrators make the best Soldiers, for they are simply better with weapons. Thanks to Cloak, they even make better Engineers when it comes to high cooldown powers. And now thanks to the Huntress, they even make better Adepts. The buggy sabotage of her Cloak is only a distraction from the goal.

And it doesn't stop there. The Shadow is the best Vanguard! Did you really think Shadow Strike was there to "be cool"? Or what of the Sentinels? Hah hah. He has been there all along. Have you ever noticed, dear Feneckus, that the Salarian Infiltrator gets loads of protection and damage output thanks to Energy Drain and Cloak in tandem?

Soldier. Adept. Engineer. Sentinel. Vanguard. These words mean nothing now. There is only one direction, one law: Infiltrators. They shall be the ascendance of the multiplayer meta-game. They will lead us into the future.

"They will succumb and ascend. Or they will be annihilated..."

[Uh Cold]

The impact they have on the rest of the characters is quite sad, the game will never reach true balance because of such oversights that BioWare looks as if to put no effort into considering.

[Sammorbai]

The infiltrator is my favorite of the six classes. I love playing sneaky classes, I love playing snipers, the infiltrator is just my favorite. But I agree, there are a couple problems with the class. The way I look at it there are two problems with the infiltrator:

1) Enemies are able to see infiltrators while they're cloaked. ME2 established that, due to the optical upgrades from the Lazarus Project, Shepard is the only one who can see cloaked enemies. The enemy shouldn’t be able to see us while we're cloaked, just like we shouldn’t be able to see a cloaked Hunter without something like Tactical Scan, Hunter Mode, or Recon Mine revealing them to us.

2) Tactical Cloak's 40% damage boost evolution. I understand the flavor, turning invisible is supposed to give you more time to aim at the enemy’s head/heart/other high-priority body part, but the 40% damage boost just isn’t working that way. Fix option #1: Tactical Cloak’s damage bonuses only apply to critical damage (i.e. Headshots, shots to the vent on the Atlas’ back, etc.) Fix option #2: only make Tactical Cloak's damage bonuses apply to sniper rifles or SMGs.  Fix option #3: make Tactical Cloak work like Zer0’s hologram ability in Borderlands 2: the longer you’re cloaked, the greater the damage bonus you get. So if you’re quick cloaking and immediately firing to dodge cooldowns you get little to no extra damage, but if you stay cloaked for the entire cloak duration to line up a perfect shot before firing then you get the full damage bonus (and likewise have to suffer the full cloak cooldown duration).

Modifié par Sammorbai, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[cubaka11]

dont play them

Modifié par cubaka11, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:34 .

[Farosyrn]

Feneckus wrote...

Farosyrn wrote...


I know what you're saying, I simply disagree with you; the way cloak works -and you make it a point to explain that in detail whenever the issue about cloak comes up- it's not an I-Win button. The invisibility is very meh

It does work 95% of the time if you cloak out of sight of the enemy. Besides, worst case scenario, you "only" get 80% damage bonus and a big eff you to cooldowns. Still pretty damn good. No other class can do that.

Not saying it isn't a good power, don't get me wrong. But at times it sounds like it's an I-win button, cloak, no one can shoot/stab/stagger you, kill all the things instantly and stuff.
95% working, though? You know what they say about 98% of all statistics, right?
Also, when you say out of sight, you mean in hard cover, with no enemies behind you on the map, even if turning their back on you, same with your flanks. Also, of course, enemies have supernatural hearing, so often when you can't run a 20 meter arc around that phantom, it will just grab and instakill you.
And against geth, which is after all 1/4 of the game, trying to use cloak as a defensive tool is just a source of frustration.


That's not a whole lot of non-infiltrator snipers. Sure, they exist. Even then, though, I daresay the geth trooper would be better off flaming all the things. Also, infiltrators are supposed to be excellent snipers. Complaining about the fact that they are is just ridiculous. Although I probably brought that on with my phrasing...