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#1
Adugan

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 I dont know if DA3 will be a "gather your forces" kind of game like everything BW made pre-DA2 was, but I have a suggestion for the game if it is. 

I hated how in ME3 you did a bunch of random fetch quests for numbers on a console that determined if everyone got gruesomely butchered/incinerated/vaporized or the galaxy got saved. There was no feeling of leading great forces to save the galaxy from destruction. 

DAO was a little better in that regard with the cutscenes leading to the fight with the darkspawn/archdemon showing legions of soldiers marching and the random encounters of mages/dwarves/elves/knights you met on the road that were marching to Redcliffe. However, there still was no big battle. There were quarters where you met a dozen soldiers and helped them kill darkspawn. Even the archdemon battle had only one big boss to fight, with some random darkspawn fodder.

However, none of these games had that epic battle where everything was at stake. I really wanted ALL my forces fighting on one bit battlefield. Think King Arthur and the battle at the end to get an idea of what I am thinking of. It would be great if everyone I recruited to fight would be on the field, with a legion of dwarf warriors, elven archers, human knights and mages, and maybe even golems/werewolves/templars/whatever assisting. 

Thoughts?

Modifié par Adugan, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:22 .


#2
Vandicus

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Do you mean a cinematic or actual battle?

#3
Adugan

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Vandicus wrote...

Do you mean a cinematic or actual battle?


An actual battle where you could run around and cut enemies down, the whole thing would have to be manually won by your forces and you killing each enemy. I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 

#4
Daerog

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Adugan wrote...

 I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 


While that is a problem, most of the people fighting would just be background animations anyway. That is, unless you are asking to be able to waltz to any part of the battlefield, which I would consider asking too much if wanting to have hundreds of animated and interactable npcs in one area.

It did feel like the PC was just fighting in skirmishes that made up a major battle, not in a major battle itself. I don't have a problem with what has happened in the liberation of Denerim and the battle of Kirkwall, but to be in the middle of a major battle would be interesting, with many allies and enemies surrounding you.

Edit: Although, aren't we trying to stop the war and not try to make it any worse than it already is? Or are we actually choosing a side to fight for and participate fully in this insane war?

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:34 .


#5
Vandicus

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Adugan wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Do you mean a cinematic or actual battle?


An actual battle where you could run around and cut enemies down, the whole thing would have to be manually won by your forces and you killing each enemy. I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 


Eh, I doubt it. 

#6
Adugan

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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Adugan wrote...

 I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 


While that is a problem, most of the people fighting would just be background animations anyway. That is, unless you are asking to be able to waltz to any part of the battlefield, which I would consider asking too much if wanting to have hundreds of animated and interactable npcs in one area.

It did feel like the PC was just fighting in skirmishes that made up a major battle, not in a major battle itself. I don't have a problem with what has happened in the liberation of Denerim and the battle of Kirkwall, but to be in the middle of a major battle would be interesting, with many allies and enemies surrounding you.

Edit: Although, aren't we trying to stop the war and not try to make it any worse than it already is? Or are we actually choosing a side to fight for and participate fully in this insane war?


I know the entire thing would be too much, but have maybe a few dozen soldiers fighting and you could run around and do what you want in that space. I dont know if you played The Witcher 2, but imagine the curse in act 2 where you ran through the battlefield it created new soldiers to fight and plased out the ones you werent attacking. 

#7
Vandicus

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Adugan wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Adugan wrote...

 I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 


While that is a problem, most of the people fighting would just be background animations anyway. That is, unless you are asking to be able to waltz to any part of the battlefield, which I would consider asking too much if wanting to have hundreds of animated and interactable npcs in one area.

It did feel like the PC was just fighting in skirmishes that made up a major battle, not in a major battle itself. I don't have a problem with what has happened in the liberation of Denerim and the battle of Kirkwall, but to be in the middle of a major battle would be interesting, with many allies and enemies surrounding you.

Edit: Although, aren't we trying to stop the war and not try to make it any worse than it already is? Or are we actually choosing a side to fight for and participate fully in this insane war?


I know the entire thing would be too much, but have maybe a few dozen soldiers fighting and you could run around and do what you want in that space. I dont know if you played The Witcher 2, but imagine the curse in act 2 where you ran through the battlefield it created new soldiers to fight and plased out the ones you werent attacking. 


Ah, well the situation becomes a bit different if its not necessary to process the combat of hundreds of DA units individually. 

#8
Adugan

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Vandicus wrote...

Adugan wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Adugan wrote...

 I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it. 


While that is a problem, most of the people fighting would just be background animations anyway. That is, unless you are asking to be able to waltz to any part of the battlefield, which I would consider asking too much if wanting to have hundreds of animated and interactable npcs in one area.

It did feel like the PC was just fighting in skirmishes that made up a major battle, not in a major battle itself. I don't have a problem with what has happened in the liberation of Denerim and the battle of Kirkwall, but to be in the middle of a major battle would be interesting, with many allies and enemies surrounding you.

Edit: Although, aren't we trying to stop the war and not try to make it any worse than it already is? Or are we actually choosing a side to fight for and participate fully in this insane war?


I know the entire thing would be too much, but have maybe a few dozen soldiers fighting and you could run around and do what you want in that space. I dont know if you played The Witcher 2, but imagine the curse in act 2 where you ran through the battlefield it created new soldiers to fight and plased out the ones you werent attacking. 


Ah, well the situation becomes a bit different if its not necessary to process the combat of hundreds of DA units individually. 


There would have to be an active troop count going where the more you killed the bigger advantage your side got, since they would start outnumbering and overwhelming the opposition. So they would still have to be processed as numbers, but not individual units. 

#9
SafetyShattered

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I agree with you OP, I don't personally believe Bioware would do that. But I'd like it if they would.

#10
Sable Rhapsody

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Adugan wrote...
There would have to be an active troop count going where the more you killed the bigger advantage your side got, since they would start outnumbering and overwhelming the opposition. So they would still have to be processed as numbers, but not individual units. 


World of Warcraft does precisely this in http://www.wowwiki.c...e battlegrounds[/url]; as one side kills commanders and captures strategic locations, a number representing the other side's "reinforcements" ticks down.  It's certainly doable, it's just a question of whether DA3 can do it.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 décembre 2012 - 10:52 .


#11
Wulfram

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There are technical issues to having loads and loads of characters on the battlefield. Even the numbers for Denerim caused a lot of issues. There's a reason all the big crowd scenes were pre-rendered.

And scaling the battle down to the extent that it would work effectively in an RPG risks making it seem like no more than a minor skirmish.

#12
Sable Rhapsody

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Wulfram wrote...

There are technical issues to having loads and loads of characters on the battlefield. Even the numbers for Denerim caused a lot of issues. There's a reason all the big crowd scenes were pre-rendered.


You don't necessarily have to load a bunch of characters to give the impression of a large battle.  There's a level in Diablo 3 where you're fighting on top of some ramparts above a huge ground battle.  You don't see the soldiers--in fact, you can barely see anything other than a few siege machines.

But you can hear the screaming and fighting, feel the ramparts shake and crumble, dodge huge fireballs from the artillery, fight through smoke, etc.  It gives an impression of scale with fewer resources than loading a bunch of models.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:06 .


#13
Adugan

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are technical issues to having loads and loads of characters on the battlefield. Even the numbers for Denerim caused a lot of issues. There's a reason all the big crowd scenes were pre-rendered.


You don't necessarily have to load a bunch of characters to give the impression of a large battle.  There's a level in Diablo 3 where you're fighting on top of some ramparts above a huge ground battle.  You don't see the soldiers--in fact, you can barely see anything other than a few siege machines.

But you can hear the screaming and fighting, feel the ramparts shake and crumble, dodge huge fireballs from the artillery, fight through smoke, etc.  It gives an impression of scale with fewer resources than loading a bunch of models.


Thats actually a really good example, I loved the demonic siege engines from that level. 

#14
nightscrawl

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There are technical issues to having loads and loads of characters on the battlefield. Even the numbers for Denerim caused a lot of issues. There's a reason all the big crowd scenes were pre-rendered.


You don't necessarily have to load a bunch of characters to give the impression of a large battle.  There's a level in Diablo 3 where you're fighting on top of some ramparts above a huge ground battle.  You don't see the soldiers--in fact, you can barely see anything other than a few siege machines.

But you can hear the screaming and fighting, feel the ramparts shake and crumble, dodge huge fireballs from the artillery, fight through smoke, etc.  It gives an impression of scale with fewer resources than loading a bunch of models.

This is essentially what you have at Ostagar before you enter the Tower of Ishal. I think that can work well maybe once a game. If the Battle for Denerim was done the same way as Ostagar it would have been boring.

However, the OP seems like he/she does want a huge open battle that is displayed on the screen, not merely the feeling of a huge battle...

Adugan wrote...

An actual battle where you could run around and cut enemies down, the whole thing would have to be manually won by your forces and you killing each enemy. I am sure that PCs and next gen consoles will have the processing power for it.



Other than PC resource issue, which I'm sure would be a problem, as you not only have hundreds of units, but you also may have several custom and unique units consisting of the PC, all of the followers, and any relevant named NPCs; fight mechanics is an issue as well.

How many units does the player control? Do you only control your PC and 3-4 followers? What about the other 5 followers? Might there by typical AI used for them, as in the final battles in DA2? Do you control ALL forces, everywhere, like Starcraft? The graphics for Starcraft certainly aren't very detailed, which is appropriate for the type of game it is, allowing you to have hundreds of units and siege machines on the screen at once.

If you can't control everything, how do you influence the outcome? Do you only rely on the fact that your side has your awesome, uberly geared PC and her friends, while the other side merely has NPCs with limited AI? Do you just build resources to strengthen your team beforehand, like improving armor and such a la NWN2 and DAA?

These, and more that I haven't thought of, are all things that would have to be considered before such a system could even be implemented.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 décembre 2012 - 03:08 .


#15
Wulfram

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They could have you play a Total War mod for the big battle?

#16
mitthrawuodo

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Having battles with more NPCs (say 50) would be alright but to have huge large battles like in Total War would be too hard and it could end up in a sort of horde mode.

#17
Sanunes

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What are you willing to sacrifice for something like that? I cringe thinking of something like that happening on a console because of how limited they are right now, it might change if its going to be next gen exclusive, but as of the consoles right now I really don't want another Skyrim issue when the game requires more then what the system can handle.

#18
Sable Rhapsody

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nightscrawl wrote...
This is essentially what you have at Ostagar before you enter the Tower of Ishal. I think that can work well maybe once a game. If the Battle for Denerim was done the same way as Ostagar it would have been boring.

However, the OP seems like he/she does want a huge open battle that is displayed on the screen, not merely the feeling of a huge battle...


Actually placing and animating a crapton of models would crash any machine.  At this point, I think it's more about how to emulate a huge open battle, both visually and mechanically, without making the poor computer cry spinal fluid.

Cinematics are just about the only way to actually depict a ton of soldiers.  I wonder if video games can do anything like blue-screen in the movies?  Have a bunch of pre-rendered soldiers moving around in the background while a handful of actual models move in the foreground?  I'm not even sure that's possible.

#19
Swagger7

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And here I thought this thread was going to be about democracy in Thedas....

#20
Wulfram

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Swagger7 wrote...

And here I thought this thread was going to be about democracy in Thedas....


I still think Thedas should have a few republican city states.  They're fun, and period appropriate.

#21
Swagger7

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Wulfram wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

And here I thought this thread was going to be about democracy in Thedas....


I still think Thedas should have a few republican city states.  They're fun, and period appropriate.


That could be fun, especially if they practiced Selection by Lots like Athens:
http://en.wikipedia.....28allotment.29

The PC could find her/himself accidentally elected to high office in some backwater after receiving honorary citizenship for some good deed.

#22
Adugan

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Swagger7 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

And here I thought this thread was going to be about democracy in Thedas....


I still think Thedas should have a few republican city states.  They're fun, and period appropriate.


That could be fun, especially if they practiced Selection by Lots like Athens:
http://en.wikipedia.....28allotment.29

The PC could find her/himself accidentally elected to high office in some backwater after receiving honorary citizenship for some good deed.


ThreadDerailed.jpg

#23
Rixatrix

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Adugan wrote...
I know the entire thing would be too much, but have maybe a few dozen soldiers fighting and you could run around and do what you want in that space. I dont know if you played The Witcher 2, but imagine the curse in act 2 where you ran through the battlefield it created new soldiers to fight and plased out the ones you werent attacking. 


Sounds pretty fun.  Maybe they could limit it to 20-30 enemies in view at a time with your allied units.  I'd love to be able to intervene in skirmishes, saving allies, and maybe get some trigger-able "special" messy kill moves, being the awesome hero(ine) and all. :D

#24
Brodoteau

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I always favour First Past the Post.

This reminds me of a point in BG2:Throne of Bhaal, where you are attacked by an "army" and have to fight your way through an area. It was tedious and the worst sort of wave combat. Though I suppose, if you are going to have wave combat, a giant battle is the best place to have it.
More to the point... This would be a graphical nightmare so I think that's why they don't do it. But I think it could be managable if they allowed you to "move" into different areas of the battle (think of the Map of Denerim, but instead of sections of town, it's sections of the battle)

#25
Swagger7

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Adugan wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Swagger7 wrote...

And here I thought this thread was going to be about democracy in Thedas....


I still think Thedas should have a few republican city states.  They're fun, and period appropriate.


That could be fun, especially if they practiced Selection by Lots like Athens:
http://en.wikipedia.....28allotment.29

The PC could find her/himself accidentally elected to high office in some backwater after receiving honorary citizenship for some good deed.


ThreadDerailed.jpg


"Thread Derailed", aka what happens when a thread's title doesn't match its content.


Brodoteau wrote...

I always favour First Past the Post.



BOO!  Image IPB

Personally I prefer a system that combines Mixed Member Proportional voting with Instant-Runoff Voting.


On Topic:  Yes, it would be nice if we could have a few large battles in the game.  Whether it can be done or not is a different thing altogether. 

Modifié par Swagger7, 07 décembre 2012 - 02:20 .