120 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

A lot of terms get thrown around this forum and often threads are completely derailed into arguments over their meaning.  What I propose is a thread (based upon a list of terms we will generate here) where such discussions over the meanings of terms is the topic.  

Ideally - though I have no expectations that the discussions will always follow this mold - we will engage in a dialectic to attempt to come up with consistent terminology with which to have discussions over various Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc related issues.

Why?  Well, it's kind of frustrating to - for example - have a discussion on these boards regarding a concept like "choices that matter" when it seems every poster in the thread has his or her own idea of what those are.  Furthermore, since the term is used in the context of what is typically a heated argument over preferences, those terms become loaded.  By that I mean, if I have a preference for a certain kind of choice (they matter to me) then my definition for a choice that matters is intrinsically and inseperably linked to those preferences within the context of the argument.  If I budge from it, I lose the argument.  This is true for most people in most threads on most subjects.  This actively prevents healthy discussion and I'm as guilty of contributing to the issue as anyone.

The thread will, hopefully, simply limit itself to trying to define terms for the sake of clarity.  For example, "choices that matter" might more usefully be broken up into two or more terms such as "narrative choice" (basically, branching stories, choosing endstates, etc) and "character choice" (an opportunity to define your character's personality).  Whether or not one or the other matters more to any of us - again hopefully - won't be the subject of debate.

Why do we need a planning thread?  To collect terms.  What are some terms whose meanings are hotly debated on the forums?

Roleplaying game?

Action RPG?

Choices that matter?

Immersion?

Reactivity?

Roleplaying?

Dumbing down?

Streamlining?

Once we get a list that I think is somewhere near comprehensive I'll start the discussion thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2012 - 11:37 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Oh yeah this will end well

Oh well while I am here I move to have the word "Immersion" removed from any future topics or discussions as I am sick of Elder Scrolls fans throwing around the word to describe everything regardless of whether or not it is relevent to the feature in question.

[Naughty Bear]

Not required but to me, these make games qualify as an RPG.

Choices along with consequences

Dialogue trees when conversing with party members or other people.

**** load of stats and skill trees. Think of borderlands 1 and 2, Fary Cry 3 and Dragone Age Origins where you actually see the stats lose or gain points depending on what you are using and where you allocated the points too.

I like Far Cry 3 stats but I dislike that you can have all the unlocks, I prefer you making a choice between one or the other. Think Mass Effect 3.

loot. I love Borderlands for this. Comparing which one is the best and making a choice between cater speed or more damage.

I can not stress this enough. Character customisation. It's and RPG for a reason. Your playing a role, one I prefer where players choose which role like Skyrim. Be it a begger, bard or murderer.

any game that has one or two of these, I consider it a 'light' RPG.

Modifié par Naughty Bear, 05 décembre 2012 - 01:57 .

[Naughty Bear]

I don't understand why this is a 'taboo' topic?

[upsettingshorts]

Naughty Bear wrote...

I don't understand why this is a 'taboo' topic?

It's not.  It's simply an acknowledgement that semantics often derails topics and an attempt to try and fix this.

In any case this is not the thread for discussing each term, just listing terms that often lead to disagreements.

The discussion thread comes next.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2012 - 02:19 .

[spirosz]

This will go places. Ahaha.

[bmwcrazy]

Artistic integrity.

[spirosz]

For me personally, it's depends on how the game allows you to customize the protagonist. For example, KOTOR and Jade Empire were pretty linear in the sense of story or dealing with the "choices" you make, that doesn't personally define an RPG for me. It's the way I'm able to shape the character throughout the story, be it stats, dialogue choices, appearance, it all depends on what the game lets you do.

Skyrim for example, I've "role-played" different types of character (basically they have a whole story behind them) that will look at the world differently and approach certain things differently, even though, the story itself basically stays the same. Will he or she join the thieves guild, does they hate the Thalmor, blah blah. Even though it's an open world specific game, I find it suits my needs for an RPG.

I guess with the ME series, the whole "choices matter" aspect never really conflicted with the RPG elements in the sense, that I was able to shape my Shepard the way I wanted to, at least in the first two games, and I knew the story was always going to be Bioware's story and not our story.

I guess it breaks down to:
Dialogue choices

Either customizable or pre-defined character (I find Deus Ex and Witcher great RPG's)

Stats (doesn't have to be heavy) or even be there, but it's a nice touch to the feeling of "growth"

What the game gives you - if it's not loot heavy, does that dis-classify it as an RPG? Not for me.

Anyway, it's mostly just my view on the games itself - ME2 being one of my favourites, Deus Ex:HR, Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Skyrim, Fable 1 to a certain extent.

[Roflbox]

 Time to get a thread closed!

*ModEdit: Trying to get a thread closed can result in official warnings, short temp bans, long temp bans, or permanent bans*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 05 décembre 2012 - 09:17 .

[upsettingshorts]

Well Roflbox considering how this thread is only supposed to be assembling a list and has already ignored this and gone straight into discussion, maybe it should be.

[RedArmyShogun]

Oh sweet jesus not this topic again.

[upsettingshorts]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Oh sweet jesus not this topic again.

I have literally never seen this topic.

It has a specific, limited mission.  That everyone is ignoring.  Which I suppose I should have predicted.  This is clearly the job for a Group composed of people capable of reading.

This is, for the last time, a thread meant to compile a list of frequently argued-over terms.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 décembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[eroeru]

Well,

Accessability, diversity and "problem-solving gameplay" in relation to "dumbing down" and "choices". "Narrative gameplay". A game that is "punishing". Mechanics-driven games, story-driven games, "atmospheric" - for lack of a better word - games. (intristic?) Complexity.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It has a specific, limited mission.  That everyone is ignoring.  Which I suppose I should have predicted.  This is clearly the job for a Group composed of people capable of reading.
This is, for the last time, a thread meant to compile a list of frequently argued-over terms.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I told you it wouldn't work.

[RedArmyShogun]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Oh sweet jesus not this topic again.

I have literally never seen this topic.

It has a specific, limited mission.  That everyone is ignoring.  Which I suppose I should have predicted.  This is clearly the job for a Group composed of people capable of reading.

This is, for the last time, a thread meant to compile a list of frequently argued-over terms.  Nothing more, nothing less.

Which will as always break down into a "what is an RPG" pissing match. As the various values in RPG's of all sorts some people will not take as what they see as RPG. Just wait till JRPG and the WRPG groups start butting heads. Nevermind the PNP folks. If this doesn't break down by the time of the 2nd page I'll be higly surprised.

[upsettingshorts]

If it were to break down it'd be the actual discussion thread. Not this one. This is the term-compiling thread.

[happy_daiz]

OK, the one most argued-over term that I absolutely want to vomit every time I see is:

Canon

OMG. Absolutely infuriating. I don't think I've ever seen that word thrown around so much as when I started coming to BSN. And it's clear that a lot of people don't actually know what it means.

But, I digress.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 05 décembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[Dhiro]

Xewaka wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It has a specific, limited mission.  That everyone is ignoring.  Which I suppose I should have predicted.  This is clearly the job for a Group composed of people capable of reading.
This is, for the last time, a thread meant to compile a list of frequently argued-over terms.  Nothing more, nothing less.

I told you it wouldn't work.

I told him too.

In another language.

Boom.

[hoorayforicecream]

What good are terms if you have no mutually agreed-upon definitions?

[hoorayforicecream]

LiquidGrape wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

What good are terms if you have no mutually agreed-upon definitions?

Define definitions.

We must go deeper!

*image deleted per Site Rule #6*

Hoffception.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 09 décembre 2012 - 11:29 .

[addiction21]

I tried to type something in the quick reply but hoorays emmmmmm. Where am I?

[eroeru]

Are people purposefully derailing? Do you guys actually want your predictions of the thread's demise to come into being? x)
(David Hoffman is too much for these forums)

@LiquidGrape - Love to think of your post as said by Daria's Jane!

[Chromie]

eroeru wrote...

Are people purposefully derailing? Do you guys actually want your predictions of the thread's demise to come into being? x)

Yup. These threads never end well anyway.

*ModEdit: Image removed*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 05 décembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[eroeru]

Well, they could, possibly...

[upsettingshorts]

eroeru wrote...



Well, they could, possibly...

This thread could if people paid attention to the post.

You know.  The "this is just a place for listing terms" part.  

There is literally no way that could end badly.  But it could easily start poorly.  And guess what happened.