120 réponses à ce sujet

[Roflbox]

bobobo878 wrote...

Cutlasskiwi wrote...
Mature

Oh god, please don't go there.

*BodEdit: Image removed per Site Rule #6*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 05 décembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

eroeru wrote...

I wouldn't agree with this, even if I agree that "RPG mechanics" is the main thing that's wanted to be discussed here.

It's pretty plausible that you can have a game that has RPG mechanics, yet implements complexity differently, given that dumbing-down would mean it has something to do with complexity. Hmm... does it?

That would depend entirely on the definition of "RPG mechanics", which supports its inclusion in Shorts's list.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Choice vs Illusion of Choice.

Are you sure you mean choice? Or choice consequence?
Those are two different things.
Ah, this is a topic for the actual thread, isn't it.

The fact you had to ask what I meant is kinda the point of me suggesting it in the first place, heh.

It's an excellent suggestion.  I've never really understood what the "illusion of choice" was, as I don't see how it isn't obvious when you do or don't have a choice.  So clearly my defintion of the term doesn't match that of others.

[Dominus]

Role-Playing game would be the big one. It's the conversation that you hope would go somewhere, but tends to run around in a loop or get derailed. I'd be up for attempting a civil argument on the subject. I'd expect most people have a fair idea about what is and isn't an Action RPG(or so I would assume from what I've seen). Immersion is something I'd probably fight over - at least for more modern games, RPG or not. GoG/Indie Games, not as big of a deal.

Outside of 'mature' and a couple others, UpsettingShortShorts got the major ones, I think.

Modifié par DominusVita, 06 décembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[Volus Warlord]

Player character development.

Non-player character development.

Retcon.

Porno.

Randomization vs. Customization.

Skank. (No matter how obvious it seems, people always seem to disagree on a character's sexual morals.)

Character Detail vs. Faction Detail.

Character Integrity

Character Plausibility

Character Fan Support/Memorability (Some characters are well known and respected for years while others are quickly forgotten. Why?)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Gameplay.

[MerinTB]

This may be the most Quixotic undertaking I've ever witnessed...

and having been the instigator of more than a few such endeavors myself, this is indeed saying something.

Nevertheless, I wholeheartedly endorse Upsettingshorts's intentions.

Terms to define:

role
game
mini-game
mechanics
role-playing
role-playing game
role-playing game mechanics
loot
experience
experience points
attributes
character
player character
player-agency
romance
casual
hard-core
story
plot
genre
(and I'm not kidding on the following)
definition
fact
opinion

For language to work we need to have agreed upon common meaning for words. When everyone has their own "definitions" for words, or "opinions" on what words mean, facts get lost and communication is impossible.

[MerinTB]

Oh, and yes, "illusion of choice" - unless used properly (which I never see it used) it is a meaningless phrase.

Let's definitely get THAT one squared away, too.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

Is Black Ops II an RPG? Choices affect story...

[nightscrawl]

My word is "casual," I'll also vote for "illusion of choice" that has already been mentioned, because I think that is important, although the phrase seems rather straightforward to me.

Also going with a phrase that was used at PAX East: "decisions that matter." I think this is different from "choices that matter" that you already have listed, which I will discuss in the thread.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I would, however, like to take issue with the suggestion that discussions are ever derailed by semantics.  Those semantic arguments don't derail discussions; they add clarity to discussions.

Oh Sylvius... *pat*

Modifié par nightscrawl, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Graphics, as in how graphics (what a game achieves visually, from a technical perspective) are distinct from style/art direction.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:42 .

[Xewaka]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Graphics, as in how graphics (what a game achieves visually, from a technical perspective) are distinct from style/art direction.

Ooh, this is a good'un.

[RedArmyShogun]

J. Reezy wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

OK, the one most argued-over term that I absolutely want to vomit every time I see is:

Canon

OMG. Absolutely infuriating. I don't think I've ever seen that word thrown around so much as when I started coming to BSN. And it's clear that a lot of people don't actually know what it means.

But, I digress.

*image removed per Site Rule #6*

That one has two N's silly.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 09 décembre 2012 - 11:43 .

[Naughty Bear]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

happy_daiz wrote...

OK, the one most argued-over term that I absolutely want to vomit every time I see is:

Canon

OMG. Absolutely infuriating. I don't think I've ever seen that word thrown around so much as when I started coming to BSN. And it's clear that a lot of people don't actually know what it means.

But, I digress.

*image removed per Site Rule #6*

That one has two N's silly.

*image removed per Site Rule #6*
?

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 09 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art
cannon: A mounted gun for hiring heavy projectiles
Canon: A Japanese multinational company

It's not that hard. Now stop derailing the thread.

[Roflbox]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
 Now derail the thread.

Derail you say?

*image removed per Site Rule #6*

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 09 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art
cannon: A mounted gun for hiring heavy projectiles
Canon: A Japanese multinational company

It's not that hard. Now stop derailing the thread.

Please don't get into the discussion of the actual definitions here. We're just trying to collect definitions in this thread to later be defined.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Gatt9]

I'll bite.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Why do we need a planning thread?  To collect terms.  What are some terms whose meanings are hotly debated on the forums?

Roleplaying game?  I'm assuming that you mean a video game,  so this one doesn't need defined.  It's a computer implementation of a PnP ruleset or a PnP feasible ruleset.  The only reason there's any confusion is because LARPSers have been trying to define themselves as RPGers for nearly 40 years,  and the better part of the Playstation generation has never actually played a PnP RPG so they really don't know what an RPG is,  they just assume that if a video game company says it's an RPG it is.  That doesn't change what an RPG is,  no more than the large number of people who think a tomato is a vegetable means it's a vegetable. 

Action RPG?  Diablo 1 and 2.  An RPG with real time combat and behind the scenes dice rolls.  The anti-example is Skyrim,  it's not an ARPG it's action-adventure,  because it's purely skills based and the Character does not exist,  it's simply an avatar for the Player.

Choices that matter? - Choices with definite in game impacts that open/close meaningfull paths.  Fallout 2 is a good example.  The anti-example is Mass Effect 2 and 3.  Where your choice doesn't make any difference,  the same things happen regardless.

Immersion? - Industry buzz-word that means absolutely nothing.  It's completely impossible for a video game to "Immerse" you because you're still staring at a screen with a wall behind it,  and all other directions remain unchanged.

Reactivity? - Not real sure how this is up for debate.  It's the level of response a game has for player action.

Roleplaying? - LARPSing.  It's the situation where the player self-immerses,  rather than directing the actions of a character.

Dumbing down? - The removal of most/all complexity in order to aquire a mass market (That never actually happens) with the false assumption that anything more complex than "Push button" means people won't buy it.  The Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 are good examples,  Mass Effect 2 is another.

Streamlining? - Removing unneccessary complexity that existed only for the sake of being complex.  A good example would be AD&D's THAC0 system,  it was counter-intuitive and could be implemented in better fashion (As 3rd edition ultimately did).

[Gatt9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

This is very amusing.

But anyway, something I think could have value, is RPG mechanics. What are RPG mechanics?

I don't know if you're wanting your discussion to head thataway, but it's probably a contested issue, no?

*Thinks of ME and inventories and weapon variants*

That is a worthy question.

An RPG mechanic is a mechanic that minimizes Player skill to the greatest extent and emphasises Character skill to the greatest extent.  Since the focal point of an RPG is the Character,  RPG mechanics are those mechanics that create the interface between Player and Character.

The remainder is the RPG system,  which is highly variable.  For example,  it's entirely possible to have a completely level-less RPG and be an RPG.  It's entirely possible to have an RPG devoid of meaningful choices and be an RPG,  Nethack is a good example.

But it's not possible to have Player Skill be the centeral focus,  because then the Character doesn't exist.  The Character becomes an Avatar for the Player,  moving it into (At best) LARPS area where the Player self-inserts into the game instead of assuming a defined Role.  That has always,  and will always,  be the defining difference between an RPG (Character) and LARPS (Self insertion).

The central focus of any,  and every,  RPG system is the Character.  So the mechanics of an RPG are what facilitates that focus.

[nightscrawl]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I've boldened and red-ded the subjective part.

AHH my eyes!

[Sylvius the Mad]

Gatt9 wrote...


Action RPG?  Diablo 1 and 2.  An RPG with real time combat and
behind the scenes dice rolls.  The anti-example is Skyrim,  it's not an
ARPG it's action-adventure,  because it's purely skills based and the
Character does not exist,  it's simply an avatar for the Player.

While this isn't the place for this discussion, thank you for not requiring player skill in your action RPG definition.  Take Dungeon Siege, for example.  There's no player-skill component in Dungeon Siege's combat at all, but since the game is nothing more than one gigantic linear combat-fest, it was nearly universally viewed as an action RPG - presumably because the other traditional components of roleplaying games (like any non-combat decision-making) were absent.

Definitions that require player skill are dated - to today, but that doesn't change that they are dated.

Roleplaying game?  I'm assuming that you mean a video game,  so this one doesn't need defined.  It's a computer implementation of a PnP ruleset or a PnP feasible ruleset.  The only reason there's any confusion is because LARPSers have been trying to define themselves as RPGers for nearly 40 years,  and the better part of the Playstation generation has never actually played a PnP RPG so they really don't know what an RPG is,  they just assume that if a video game company says it's an RPG it is.  That doesn't change what an RPG is,  no more than the large number of people who think a tomato is a vegetable means it's a vegetable.

A tomato is a vegetable.  It's also a fruit.  Fruits are a subset of vegetables.

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art
cannon: A mounted gun for hiring heavy projectiles
Canon: A Japanese multinational company

It's not that hard. Now stop derailing the thread.

Please don't get into the discussion of the actual definitions here. We're just trying to collect definitions in this thread to later be defined.

I defined the offtopic terms - we can get into canon again later - so the trolls would leave.  They will probably come back though.