120 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

That doesn't change what an RPG is,  no more than the large number of people who think a tomato is a vegetable means it's a vegetable.

A tomato is a vegetable.  It's also a fruit.  Fruits are a subset of vegetables.

<SPONTANEOUS HEAD EXPLOSION>

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art
cannon: A mounted gun for hiring heavy projectiles 
Canon: A Japanese multinational company

It's not that hard. Now stop derailing the thread.

Please don't get into the discussion of the actual definitions here. We're just trying to collect definitions in this thread to later be defined.

I defined the offtopic terms - we can get into canon again later - so the trolls would leave.  They will probably come back though.

We have met the troll. And he is us. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[naughty99]

Role Playing Game: a game in which you play a role by doing what you think your character would choose to do

Role: a playable character concept, which can be highly detailed or limited to a more basic scope

Role Playing: doing what you think your character would choose to do. For example:
- responding to NPC dialogue in the way you think your character would respond
- going where you think your character would want to go
- making quest choices you think your character would choose
- allying with factions you think your character would want to join

Pen and Paper or Tabletop RPG: a role playing game played by a game master and a group of at least one or more players, using pen and paper to keep track of characters, events and locations, in which the game master plays the role of the NPCs and monsters

Videogame RPG: a videogame which incorporates some elements from pen and paper RPGs and provides at least a minimum framework for roleplaying

CRPG: computer role playing game

Live Action Role Playing: a form of role-playing game where the participants dress up in costumes and physically act out their character's actions

Stats: data about your character tracked by game software in the case of videogame RPGs and tracked by the GM or players in the case of PnP RPGs

Action RPG: marketing term used to describe certain linear action videogames like Diablo and Torchlight which have fantasy setting and some influence from tabletop RPGs, but are not role playing games

Modifié par naughty99, 07 décembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[MerinTB]

Hey, 'shorts, when are you updating the list? Or is that what you are going with?

I know I gave a ton, but I seriously think "illusion of choice", if nothing else, seriously needs to be added.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

And still my previous post is the best reply to this topic!

Modifié par Legatus Arianus, 08 décembre 2012 - 06:45 .

[naughty99]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You know, I was thinking about this, and i think the Collector base decision would be illusion of choice--because even if you blow it up, TIM still has it in his base. You make a choice, but you don't really. Something that is NOT illusion of choice would be the Council in ME1&2--even if you don't see the new Council in ME2, the game does not override your choice. I may be wrong.

Which is all the more reason why we need the "defining stage."

In my view, the idea of importing save games and whether or not some details from your save affect a playthrough in a completely different game is not exactly relevant.

In PnP games, illusion of choice happens all the time, and it's an important tool for the GM to help keep the game fun for all the players. For example, let's say some low level players somehow manage to enter an area of a dungeon the GM had populated with high level monsters. There are two doors in a hallway, one leads to some interesting clue about a quest the players are working on and the other leads to a dragon who will easily slay the entire party. In that scenario, many GMs will probably swap out the rooms regardless of which door the players choose, or replace the dragon with some other enemy who would be better matched.

In this sense, videogame systems which implement leveled enemies, scaled loot, random encounter tables, modified to match the player's level, or whether the player has completed a particular quest, killed a particular NPC, etc., are also intended to tailor the player's experience in the same way a GM might frantically replace half the monsters in a dungeon when he realizes they are too easy or too hard for the players.

Modifié par naughty99, 08 décembre 2012 - 08:24 .

[Serillen]

Player agency, while it isn't used as often as the others on the list its usually something that devolves the conversation into what people mean by it.

[Get Magna Carter]

Roleplaying game?
1) a P'n'P game such as Dungeon and Dragons in which players take on the roles of characters making decisions based on that character's personality and whose ability to achieve a task other than strategy/tactics/puzzle solving and similar (which are taken directly from the player's ability) are determined by statistics defined for that character which can be improved when the character gains experience points and "levels up".
2) a video game that seeks to emulate the p'n'p game.  There is a dispute as to which features from the p'n'p games are a neccessary part of the definition - normal suggestions are that it could be the gain in power through experience points, the stats determining ability or the making of decisons based on the character's personality 

Action RPG?
A videogame rpg which is not turn-based (as the P'n'P games are) but instead have combat in real time (e.g. press button to swing sword)

Choices that matter?
Alternative ways of resolving a situation which have a significant effect on later events in the game and these differences remain to the end of the game

Immersion?
meaning 1)  a solid object submerged into a liquid
meaning 2) metaphor -an engaging world and characters that can hold a players immagination.  This form of immersion is possible in other media such as books.
meaning 3) metaphor -the ability of a player to imagine themselves as being their character in the game - first-person perspective and vibrating controllers anre linked to this 

Reactivity?
in a game context - the level to which the game world and people in it react to the player's past and current actions

Roleplaying?
when a player imagines their character's point of view and makes the character's decisions based on that character's personality

Dumbing down?
simplifying or reducing (or removing) the tactical and strategic elements(including character statistics) so a player can finish the game with minimal thinking.

Streamlining?
making things quicker - could be done by combining 2 menus on a single screen, but more often done by dumbing down

[bussinrounds]

naughty99 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

You know, I was thinking about this, and i think the Collector base decision would be illusion of choice--because even if you blow it up, TIM still has it in his base. You make a choice, but you don't really. Something that is NOT illusion of choice would be the Council in ME1&2--even if you don't see the new Council in ME2, the game does not override your choice. I may be wrong.

Which is all the more reason why we need the "defining stage."

In my view, the idea of importing save games and whether or not some details from your save affect a playthrough in a completely different game is not exactly relevant.

In PnP games, illusion of choice happens all the time, and it's an important tool for the GM to help keep the game fun for all the players. For example, let's say some low level players somehow manage to enter an area of a dungeon the GM had populated with high level monsters. There are two doors in a hallway, one leads to some interesting clue about a quest the players are working on and the other leads to a dragon who will easily slay the entire party. In that scenario, many GMs will probably swap out the rooms regardless of which door the players choose, or replace the dragon with some other enemy who would be better matched.

In this sense, videogame systems which implement leveled enemies, scaled loot, random encounter tables, modified to match the player's level, or whether the player has completed a particular quest, killed a particular NPC, etc., are also intended to tailor the player's experience in the same way a GM might frantically replace half the monsters in a dungeon when he realizes they are too easy or too hard for the players.

  Man, I'm glad you weren't my GM when I played.  No wonder you support that s****y ass Beth game design.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 08 décembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[bussinrounds]

double post

Modifié par bussinrounds, 08 décembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[MerinTB]

People still can't read the OP or understand the point of this thread ...

this is gathering terms to be debated about definitions...

NOT the thread to start tossing out your own personal definitions. That comes later.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Serillen wrote...

Player agency, while it isn't used as
often as the others on the list its usually something that devolves the
conversation into what people mean by it.

Excellent suggestion.  I think there are two very distinct definitions for this being used regularly.

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'll throw one in here. Auto-dialogue.

Another good one.

[termokanden]

I regret making a discussion post. Edited out.

Modifié par termokanden, 09 décembre 2012 - 10:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...

Hey, 'shorts, when are you updating the list? Or is that what you are going with?

I know I gave a ton, but I seriously think "illusion of choice", if nothing else, seriously needs to be added.

There's no rush for this discussion, I don't think, so I'll probly go through the thread once it kinda starts to die and make a list from whatever it managed to come up with.

Will probly veto a couple along the way (yes, I'm giving myself that power) for simply being far too broad, like... "mature."

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Hey, 'shorts, when are you updating the list? Or is that what you are going with?

I know I gave a ton, but I seriously think "illusion of choice", if nothing else, seriously needs to be added.

There's no rush for this discussion, I don't think, so I'll probly go through the thread once it kinda starts to die and make a list from whatever it managed to come up with.

Will probly veto a couple along the way (yes, I'm giving myself that power) for simply being far too broad, like... "mature."

Sure, I don't think "mature" will solve anything.  It's not a gaming term that needs definition - it's either marketing jargon or a slur (immature.)

Also I listed a few that probably won't serve the purposes of your discussion (experience, attributes for example) so I won't be offended at trimming.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I'll throw one in here. Auto-dialogue.

Another good one.

Really? I didn't think Auto-Dialogue would need a definition. 

I mean, sure, its hotly debated how much should be used (or if it should be used at all) but the definition would seem pretty standard.

Well... now that I think about it, the paraphrase conversation option could be descirbed as a directed form of Auto-Dialogue, so perhaps there is merit in this definition. But it is still not one I expected to see on this list.

[upsettingshorts]

There are a few different kinds of auto-dialogue and using one term to apply to all of them leads to some confusion.

Like, Dragon Age 2 had auto-dialogue when returning fetch quests based on personality tracking. I suppose you could also include Hawke's participation, however minimal, in party banters.

Mass Effect 3 had auto-dialogue within conversations, the gist of which were to improve conversation flow by reducing the number of pauses for player input.

Also when some - not most - people say auto-dialogue in a Dragon Age 2 context, I suspect they are in reality referring to the personality tracking. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[spirosz]

Companions?

[Blastback]

Metagaming? I've seen some arguments about what it means I think...

[Wozearly]

naughty99 wrote...

In PnP games, illusion of choice happens all the time, and it's an important tool for the GM to help keep the game fun for all the players. For example, let's say some low level players somehow manage to enter an area of a dungeon the GM had populated with high level monsters. There are two doors in a hallway, one leads to some interesting clue about a quest the players are working on and the other leads to a dragon who will easily slay the entire party. In that scenario, many GMs will probably swap out the rooms regardless of which door the players choose, or replace the dragon with some other enemy who would be better matched.

Heh...if you were looking for a prototype definition on that basis, I'd go with something along the lines of "When the player is pushed towards a predetermined outcome, but is given the appearance of influencing what happens through their own decisions on the way. Its purpose is to disguise situations where the player's choices are constrained by necessity (e.g. due to the needs of the storyline, or due to game constraints)."

"The illusion of choice is a necessary feature of any computer RPG, where the player's options are not infinite. Sometimes the illusion is relatively transparent, such as when all dialogue options lead swiftly to the same end result. Sometimes the illusion can be reasonably complex, with different decisions having a discernible effect on how something is achieved, or what the end result is."

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are a few different kinds of auto-dialogue and using one term to apply to all of them leads to some confusion.

Like, Dragon Age 2 had auto-dialogue when returning fetch quests based on personality tracking. I suppose you could also include Hawke's participation, however minimal, in party banters.

Mass Effect 3 had auto-dialogue within conversations, the gist of which were to improve conversation flow by reducing the number of pauses for player input.

Also when some - not most - people say auto-dialogue in a Dragon Age 2 context, I suspect they are in reality referring to the personality tracking. 

One could even use the term to describe all of Hawke's spoken lines in DA2, as none of them are selected by the player.

I am not suggesting that definition is particularly useful, but its one someone could credibly advance.  So I think it belongs on the list.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'll add another:

Control vs. Freedom

Often when I talk about player control, people respond as if I'm talking about player freedom. So established definitions would be nice.

[MichaelStuart]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Control vs. Freedom

I would say Control is about what actions a player can do, while freedom is about what the palyer can do with those actions.
Example: Giving a player the ability to move is control. Giving a player the option to move to outside a area is freedom.