120 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

People still can't read the OP or understand the point of this thread ...

this is gathering terms to be debated about definitions...

NOT the thread to start tossing out your own personal definitions. That comes later.

Shall I fetch the bullwhip or cattleprod sir?

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'll add another:

Control vs. Freedom

Often when I talk about player control, people respond as if I'm talking about player freedom. So established definitions would be nice.

Sylvius did you ever finish that wiki page? I only mention it because it would be nice to have a clear idea what you think about Control vs. Freedom.
I am not attacking. It's just that you tend to have an abtract perspective to everything. I think I am saying that right.
To try and use a sports analogy. There are Patriots fans and there are Ravens fans. Then Sylvius is cheering for the football.

P.S.
I also and am in full support of a sylvius "what is a RPG to me" wiki page.

[Selene Moonsong]

Let's get it on topic..

[Selene Moonsong]

Role Playing: a Definition

To act out the role of a character

To represent in action; acting out the emotions and feelings of a character.

These two definitions (can be found in Merriam-Webster) describes the essence of role-play. In short, I define role-play as to act out or play the role of a character. 

The medium or platform does not matter, this can refer to games or theater.


Elements of role-playing:

Story arcs, plots, and sub-plots are the primary role-playing elements. Without them, you have nothing more than a rather bland excuse for going out and defeating enemies to gain enough points to advance to the next level. 

Choice is an element of role-playing and is about decision making from the character’s perspective and has an impact on other characters and events that shape the story arcs plots, and sub-plots.  Choice is not about deciding how to expend points on skills and abilities except when a specific ability or skill directly affects the character’s persuasiveness. 

Non role-playing elements:

Choosing things like armor, weapons, classes, skills, etc., are primarily game mechanics for advancing a character’s ability to perform in things like combat more efficiently and are not required for role-playing. This also includes customization of weapons armor, etc. and are purely game mechanics.

Summary:

Many “CRPG’s” are not what I would consider as RPG’s at all, based on my above expressed opinion. Even though they may have story elements to move them along, they do not rely on story as much for the entertainment  value as they do with action, be it combat, driving, flying or whatever.

So, for me anyway, role-playing means being drawn into the character’s world with compelling plot, sub-plots, and story arcs, where my character’s interactions can shape the over-all events and story.

Modifié par Selene Moonsong, 10 décembre 2012 - 12:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Strictly speaking, "on topic" would be listing terms, not defining them.

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed. I'm thinking I'll compile some words and work out the actual discussion post tonight or tomorrow, have a final this evening but after that I don't see why not.

Seeing as to how this thread had a tendency to get off topic, I am keeping the backup plan of simply starting a private discussion group in the event that thread goes completely off the rails, and anyone who has contributed here in a meaningful (even momentarily misguided) fashion will receive an invite.

[MerinTB]

I am eager for the debate to start.

I wanted to do this is a semi-official way on In Genre for some time now, and never got the initiative to get started.

Where this goes will be very instructive.

[Cutlasskiwi]

MerinTB wrote...

I am eager for the debate to start.

Where this goes will be very instructive.

Indeed. 

It's a very interesting concept.

[Orian Tabris]

Gatt9 wrote...

The only reason there's any confusion is because LARPSers have been trying to define themselves as RPGers for nearly 40 years, and the better part of the Playstation generation has never actually played a PnP RPG so they really don't know what an RPG is,  they just assume that if a video game company says it's an RPG it is.

I have never played a pen-and-paper RPG before, and I know exactly what a roleplaying game is. And I am part of the PlayStation generation, having played SEGA (not actually owning one) until my parents bought me a PS in 1995 (or 6). It's a game where you play the part of a character, delving into their likes and dislikes, their opinions and how they react to, and partake in, the world that they live in. Apparently I'm not one of the better part, which either means I'm a lesser member of the PS generation, or I'm one of a small number of people who do know what an RPG is. Sadly, if what you say is true, then I'm the latter (one of the few who do).

I am always questioning whether or not an RPG is an RPG, especially after seeing IGN horrible top 100 line up, not including ME1, 3 or DA2, and including some horrible excuses for RPGs, leading me to believe they just ran out of games they thought were RPGs. F.Y.I. (IGN) Final Fantasy games are not roleplaying games, they are adventure games of varying description. There are sometimes roleplaying portions, like how Tidus responds to Lulu's conversations about him and Yuna (or Lulu), but they never really matter in the grand scheme of things.

On topic, I'm just gonna list a bunch of terms that I feel need discussing, whether or not Upsetting or others have mentioned them (just to reinforce important ones, and hopefully bring up some, people haven't thought of).
Immersion
Reactive
Gameplay
Realism
Choices (how they should/n't affect future events; not what it means, 'coz we know what it means)*
Dumbing down
Artistic integrity
Action RPG
Tactics
Good and bad story writing (as far as games are concerned -  it should be pretty simple, but this is the BSN)
Critical (the difference between being concise and being just downright mean)
Spiritual successor
Dark fantasy (this needs the biggest attention, I think, as far as the Dragon Age series is concerned, because Origins felt a little like a dark fantasy, e.g. Ser Otto, Hespith, the opening with Duncan, the Archdemon, but DA2 only had the lyrium idol, Merrill's and Leandra Hawke's storylines as far as dark fantasy)

* We may have different opinions on what choices are, but they usually come down to depending on the character, or the player's ability to follow through with their character's likely choices. Whether choices matter or not, comes into confusion, I think, and people need to understand that choices won't always play a part in the reactive portion of a RPG, due to: time, resources and ability to fit into an already packed game (as BioWare always fits so much into their games, as it is).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Orian Tabris wrote...

I have never played a pen-and-paper RPG before, and I know exactly what a roleplaying game is. And I am part of the PlayStation generation, having played SEGA (not actually owning one) until my parents bought me a PS in 1995 (or 6). It's a game where you play the part of a character, delving into their likes and dislikes, their opinions and how they react to, and partake in, the world that they live in.

When you say "delving", do you mean learning what they are, or deciding what they are?

For example, the player has almost no control over the preferences or personality of Cloud in FF7.  Playing FF7 involves a lot of watching Cloud deal with problems, but basically no instances where the player gets to decide anything on Cloud's behalf.  How he feels and what he wants are determined by the game, not by the player.

That's a fundamental divergence from PnP games (and western CRPGs).

[wsandista]

PC

Linear

Character Relationships

Combat(from a thread a while back, one poster claimed that DAO did not have combat)

Player Skill vs Character Skill

Scaling

Meta-gaming

I would say Immersion would be a good term to discuss, but I find it to be mostly used as a buzzword to signal approval or disapproval for a feature when "just 'cuz" isn't elegant enough.

Modifié par wsandista, 11 décembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Immersion
Casual/Hardcore
Mature
Player Agency

And yes, artistic integrity.

[Dominus]

For example, the player has almost no control over the preferences or personality of Cloud in FF7. Playing FF7 involves a lot of watching Cloud deal with problems, but basically no instances where the player gets to decide anything on Cloud's behalf. How he feels and what he wants are determined by the game, not by the player. That's a fundamental divergence from PnP games (and western CRPGs).

It's strange. before I visited here, I never would've held a second thought about such a thing. Replaying older games, particularly JRPGs and Adventure games, the lack of "manifest destiny" is becoming an irksome experience. To the game's credit though, it had more dialogue opportunities than the previous(going from memory).

[MerinTB]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
When you say "delving", do you mean learning what they are, or deciding what they are?

For example, the player has almost no control over the preferences or personality of Cloud in FF7.  Playing FF7 involves a lot of watching Cloud deal with problems, but basically no instances where the player gets to decide anything on Cloud's behalf.  How he feels and what he wants are determined by the game, not by the player.

That's a fundamental divergence from PnP games (and western CRPGs).

Have you played any FF games? I wasn't aware that you had.

However, I agree with you. As much as I enjoy the few FF games I've played, I would not consider 
"learning about" a character to be RPing.

With apologies to the OP...

I agree.  And I think there's a fundamental divide between roughly two camps of gamers -
- those who think that, even in something like DA:O or Daggerfall, you are playing a character created by the game designers and just learning who he or she is
- and those who think that, even in something like Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol, you are creating your own character and making choices for the character based on how you envision them

So, for one group, you are just uncovering, or learning, about your character you were given... and the other group sees it at you deciding and shaping who the character is.

I think that's a bridge that will be almost impossible to cross for most.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

I'll edit this out then, in case you're still, um, gathering terms...

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 11 décembre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Have you played any FF games? I wasn't aware that you had.

FF7.  It was my one and only foray into JRPGs.  I had just acquired a PSX, I was told that FF7 was the one game I needed to have, and I hated it.

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...

I think that's a bridge that will be almost impossible to cross for most.

I think it's more of a continuum of expected/desired/acknowledged collaboration between game designers and players, rather than an easily differentiated approach.  Which is why defining the associated terms is going to be kind of messy.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 décembre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

MerinTB wrote...

With apologies to the OP...

I agree.  And I think there's a fundamental divide between roughly two camps of gamers -
- those who think that, even in something like DA:O or Daggerfall, you are playing a character created by the game designers and just learning who he or she is
- and those who think that, even in something like Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol, you are creating your own character and making choices for the character based on how you envision them

So, for one group, you are just uncovering, or learning, about your character you were given... and the other group sees it at you deciding and shaping who the character is.

I think that's a bridge that will be almost impossible to cross for most.

The holy grail of game design is the game that serves both camps well.

But as I am firmly in one camp, I will continue to advocate for features that support my playstyle.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
With apologies to the OP...

I agree.  And I think there's a fundamental divide between roughly two camps of gamers -
- those who think that, even in something like DA:O or Daggerfall, you are playing a character created by the game designers and just learning who he or she is
- and those who think that, even in something like Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol, you are creating your own character and making choices for the character based on how you envision them

So, for one group, you are just uncovering, or learning, about your character you were given... and the other group sees it at you deciding and shaping who the character is.

I think that's a bridge that will be almost impossible to cross for most.

The holy grail of game design is the game that serves both camps well.

But as I am firmly in one camp, I will continue to advocate for features that support my playstyle.

That "holy grail" is as mythical as the artificate that said term is named after, or as idiotic to persue as "mainstream audiences" for movies or "independent voters" in an election.

Make a stand.  Say what you are, define yourself, be the best "that" that you can be, and people will appreciate your efforts.  It won't be for everyone, but those it is for are excited and supportive if you do it well.  If you try and appeal to everyone, at best you'll succeed at maybe not completely turning off most people.

Trying to appeal to two diametrically opposed groups equally means you satisfy neither.

Modifié par MerinTB, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

Will get around to compiling a list and making a new post relatively soon.

[Selene Moonsong]

 Extracting a list of words (only) from my previous post:

Role-playing Elements:

RPG
cRPG
Story arcs
plot
sub-plot
choice 
Interaction


Non Role-playing Element Terms Sometimes Used in advertised cRPGs:

Customization
Armor
Weapons
Character class
Character skills 


Other terms often used:

Immersion (any game can be immersive)