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classes with highest skill curve for use on Gold and Plat?


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#76
Feneckus

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

People trying to argue the GI is balanced. That never gets old.

Oh wait, it does.

 

People using the top 0.01% of players as standards for what is OP or not. That never gets old.

Oh wait, it does.


What makes a good player ?

Good aim ? Good situatial awareness ? Being able to kill stuff fast ? Being able to survive ?

The GI lets you have all that with hunter mode + tactical cloak + proxy mines. No skill required, the game gives you all the tools. It sure is A LOT easier to be good with a GI than with a Human Engineer.

#77
jaydubs67

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


Yeah, anytime you feel like trading in that super-high damage, aggro dump, and permanent wall hack for (lol) DR and an ever so slightly better dodge, you let me know.  Oh, and you'll have to take a downgrade in shields too if you've been using cyclonics of any level.  Bahahaha.  

#78
sonofabumdooda

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CNevarezN wrote...

People think the electric slash on the Shadow is good when in reality it's not. I spec out of that and just make her all melee. With the right equipment you can one shot any mook, including phantoms.


melee shadow is lovely...if you're going to chop heads do it right.
for gods sake don't do it it plat though
hacking away at atlas arses takes way too long

#79
iOnlySignIn

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I say the Vorcha Engineer.

#80
Grunt_Platform

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Anybody else remember when every other player on Gold was a GI?

But seriously, any build without shield bonuses is going to be harder to play. But GI is one of those kits that's only as squishy as you want it to be. High base shields, and the ability to see through walls make it really really easy to compensate for Hunter Mode. Sure, you can build a squishy GI that requires lots of skill and has more payoff than other classes, but the easier to play builds are still really really effective.

#81
Deerber

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Feneckus wrote...

People trying to argue the GI is balanced. That never gets old.

Oh wait, it does.


I'm not arguing that GI is balanced, honestly. I still think it's too powerful. Its squishiness doesn't make up for the ability to kill an atlas in one talon clip, or around.

I'm just saying that it needs some skills to be used effectively, at least on higher difficulties. Which is the reason why it will never be as overpowered as the Ghost, which instead is a no-brainer. Even post-nerf.

#82
xcrunr1647

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HolyAvenger wrote...

I skip HM on my GE and he's plenty survivable and dishes out enough damage on gold/plat.


6/4/6/6/4, defensive turret, chain overload, speed & vision HM with a ULM GPSMG sidearm and a GPS primary...

My GE destroys all. Cerberus and Geth in particular are an absolute joke. 

#83
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*

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Feel this is relevant:

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

OPness = Player's Skill x (Weapon + Equipment + Kits - Lag)
= (Jay_Hoxtatron + Lord_Sirian) x (PPR's DPS + Best Equipment + TGI + GI - Huge Lag)
= (∞ + ∞) x (1376 + 1000 + 2000 + 2000 - 5000)
= ∞ x 1373
= ∞
=>Skill matters



#84
Guest_Air Quotes_*

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Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


DR is just that. DR. You're still getting hit. Wallhack let's you avoid getting hit all together + TC. And GI speed


Honestly, I'm not that good of a player and still wallhack isn't that much helpful to me. I can easily know where the enemy is without it anyway. It's helpful, sure... But not that much.


Enginner placed a turret by that ladder you chose to clib down, you didn't see it - you're dead. With GI - you will not even go down there. 

#85
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*

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Feneckus wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

People trying to argue the GI is balanced. That never gets old.

Oh wait, it does.

 

People using the top 0.01% of players as standards for what is OP or not. That never gets old.

Oh wait, it does.


What makes a good player ?

Good aim ? Good situatial awareness ? Being able to kill stuff fast ? Being able to survive ?

The GI lets you have all that with hunter mode + tactical cloak + proxy mines. No skill required, the game gives you all the tools. It sure is A LOT easier to be good with a GI than with a Human Engineer.

 

Rapidly losing respect for you Feneckus.

Really? "No skill required"? I'm sure Jay and Sten will be glad to hear their speedrun records required no skill to do. And that just any old scrub could do them because they were using two "easy mode/no skill classes".

#86
NuclearTech76

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Melee specced GI, Drellguard, Fury are all difficult. FQE for me because I still cannot make her work.

#87
xcrunr1647

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EvanKester wrote...

Anybody else remember when every other player on Gold was a GI?

But seriously, any build without shield bonuses is going to be harder to play. But GI is one of those kits that's only as squishy as you want it to be. High base shields, and the ability to see through walls make it really really easy to compensate for Hunter Mode. Sure, you can build a squishy GI that requires lots of skill and has more payoff than other classes, but the easier to play builds are still really really effective.


Claymore SI is still a potential top 5 kit in the game. 

ED makes life so much easier sometimes. 

#88
Deerber

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Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

... too long...


One question: do you use GI much? Cause I've been learning how to use a talon GI lately, so I used him a lot.

Sure, his shields are not bad. But whenever someone thinks about "squishy" and "tanky" in this game, he only thinks about shields. You know what?

Health has got a part in that, too. Believe it or not.

So yeah, humans and whatever else that has got no way to regenerate health/shields (not many kits, actually, if you think about it, and they all have full dodge capabilities, while GI only has a stupid sidestep...) might have (slightly) less shields.

But once its shields are down, a GI on platinum goes down by 2 swarmers. Yeah, you read it right. 2 swarmers hit you after you were shieldgated? Better use an ops pack, or ask for a revive already.

You walk on a bit of ravager blood by mistake, after being shieldgated? Not even the time to use the ops pack, it's either gel or revive.

So yes, GIs need a bit of know-how to work. I always thought they didn't, but I started using them a lot lately, as I said, and realized they do.

Still a lot less than drellguard, but they do.


Health drops much faster than shields and doesn't regen for most characters. Shields do. High base shields ------> High base health that doesn't regen. 

And so what if you have high shields, but that hunter snuck up on you. You will go down. With GI - you're much more safe. 


I'm not arguing that health is more important than shields. I'm arguing that it should have a share when people talk about how squishy or tanky a kit is. Say, 30% share.

Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


DR is just that. DR. You're still getting hit. Wallhack let's you avoid getting hit all together + TC. And GI speed


Honestly, I'm not that good of a player and still wallhack isn't that much helpful to me. I can easily know where the enemy is without it anyway. It's helpful, sure... But not that much.


Enginner placed a turret by that ladder you chose to clib down, you didn't see it - you're dead. With GI - you will not even go down there. 


I didn't see it, I heard it.

#89
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*

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Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


DR is just that. DR. You're still getting hit. Wallhack let's you avoid getting hit all together + TC. And GI speed


Honestly, I'm not that good of a player and still wallhack isn't that much helpful to me. I can easily know where the enemy is without it anyway. It's helpful, sure... But not that much.


Enginner placed a turret by that ladder you chose to clib down, you didn't see it - you're dead. With GI - you will not even go down there. 

 

You're a Krogan Sentinel or a Novaguard.

You go down the ladder, tank the turret and destroy it, then continue on your merry way.

#90
Deerber

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


DR is just that. DR. You're still getting hit. Wallhack let's you avoid getting hit all together + TC. And GI speed


Honestly, I'm not that good of a player and still wallhack isn't that much helpful to me. I can easily know where the enemy is without it anyway. It's helpful, sure... But not that much.


Enginner placed a turret by that ladder you chose to clib down, you didn't see it - you're dead. With GI - you will not even go down there. 

 

You're a Krogan Sentinel or a Novaguard.

You go down the ladder, tank the turret and destroy it, then continue on your merry way.


You can "tank" it as a drellguard too, if you know how to do it :whistle:

And with lots of other kits.

#91
xcrunr1647

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Oh and let's not forget comparing them to classes that get DR (Drell, Krogan, Volus), Health regen (Vorcha), shield regen (Volus, Asari, Drell, Human) and/or superior dodge moves (Drell, Vorcha, New Turians, Asari, humans, Volus).

Sure, if you set the goalposts wherever you want, you can make a convincing argument for anything.


DR is just that. DR. You're still getting hit. Wallhack let's you avoid getting hit all together + TC. And GI speed


Honestly, I'm not that good of a player and still wallhack isn't that much helpful to me. I can easily know where the enemy is without it anyway. It's helpful, sure... But not that much.


Enginner placed a turret by that ladder you chose to clib down, you didn't see it - you're dead. With GI - you will not even go down there. 

 

You're a Krogan Sentinel or a Novaguard.

You go down the ladder, tank the turret and destroy it, then continue on your merry way.


If you don't hear it then it's your own fault, as someone else already said (I'm paraphrasing).

#92
Feneckus

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

Really? "No skill required"? I'm sure Jay and Sten will be glad to hear their speedrun records required no skill to do. And that just any old scrub could do them because they were using two "easy mode/no skill classes".


Great players being able to take the GI to another level is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

The GI does allow some players to play at a level that's simply not theirs.

#93
d_nought

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Throwing in my hat for sound whoring as well. One of the reason I don't like playing with TV speakers.

#94
Fortack

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Every character that lacks in boss killing will suck to some extent on Platinum b/c Platinum is boss-mode (aka terrible design). On Gold every kit is good when played to its strengths which is possible on Gold (aka good design).

And yeah, skill >>> everything else for sure. But that does not change the fact that there are kits that are a lot more potent than others. The difference is relatively small on Gold, but quite large on Platinum thanks to how BW designed that PoS "difficulty" level :(

#95
Guest_Lord_Sirian_*

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Feneckus wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Really? "No skill required"? I'm sure Jay and Sten will be glad to hear their speedrun records required no skill to do. And that just any old scrub could do them because they were using two "easy mode/no skill classes".


Great players being able to take the GI to another level is irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make.

The GI does allow some players to play at a level that's simply not theirs.

 

Rubbish. Just like your claim about the GI being able to kill 2 Atlases before a HS could drop one Atlas' shields was rubbish.

#96
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chipsandwich wrote...

Throwing in my hat for sound whoring as well. One of the reason I don't like playing with TV speakers.

 

Air Quotes probably thinks that players who listen to turrets being set up are hackers who use 3rd party software to see through walls. 

Just like he thinks players who solo Plat in 35 minutes are hackers too.

#97
xcrunr1647

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I don't understand why so many people are still complaining about the GI when the TGI is the clear ZOMG EZ-MOADE class right now, even after the slight nerf it got yesterday.

#98
jaydubs67

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Deerber wrote...

One question: do you use GI much? Cause I've been learning how to use a talon GI lately, so I used him a lot.

Sure, his shields are not bad. But whenever someone thinks about "squishy" and "tanky" in this game, he only thinks about shields. You know what?

Health has got a part in that, too. Believe it or not.

So yeah, humans and whatever else that has got no way to regenerate health/shields (not many kits, actually, if you think about it, and they all have full dodge capabilities, while GI only has a stupid sidestep...) might have (slightly) less shields.

But once its shields are down, a GI on platinum goes down by 2 swarmers. Yeah, you read it right. 2 swarmers hit you after you were shieldgated? Better use an ops pack, or ask for a revive already.

You walk on a bit of ravager blood by mistake, after being shieldgated? Not even the time to use the ops pack, it's either gel or revive.

So yes, GIs need a bit of know-how to work. I always thought they didn't, but I started using them a lot lately, as I said, and realized they do.

Still a lot less than drellguard, but they do.


I used to use the GI a lot, back in the day.  I needed it.  I ran it through the Krysae days.  I ran it through the Piranha days too.  Now I just run it for certain challenges, like the Javelin and Krysae (which is much better than people seem to think).  But yes, I've been "around the block" quite a few times with the GI.  

I'm currently doing the GE challenge in Machine Mastery, so I know that health matters.  But it matters a whole lot less than shields, since if you take health damage a few times, you're down to a single bar.  And health gate is health gate, no matter how much health you have.  

There are a lot of reasons I think the GI is OP.  There's the fact that he has undeniably some of the best damage in the game, and undeniably some of the best utility skills (cloak and wallhacks).  There's the fact he has decent shields with consumables, as discussed.  There's the fact that whenever people do speedruns or solos, he's inevitably one of the more popular choices.  There's the fact that when I, or any of my friends picks up a GI (w/ cyclonics) for a game, we suddenly do significantly better, even if the previous game is with a class we're more familiar with.  There's the fact that so many people, both that I know and on the boards, use him as a "go to" class.  The very idea that there are "go to" classes suggests an imbalance.  

Okay.  It's not as braindead as kroguard and shield boosters vs geth.  Or the TGI superman (haven't tried him post stim nerf).  But it's a lot, lot easier to do well with than most classes out there if you are using cyclonic modulators to counter it's supposed squishiness.  Most of the people who try to argue it's balanced are either in serious denial, are "doing it wrong," or are disengenously trying to preserve an OP class without simply saying "I like it being OP."  

#99
xcrunr1647

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Lord_Sirian wrote...

chipsandwich wrote...

Throwing in my hat for sound whoring as well. One of the reason I don't like playing with TV speakers.

 

Air Quotes probably thinks that players who listen to turrets being set up are hackers who use 3rd party software to see through walls. 

Just like he thinks players who solo Plat in 35 minutes are hackers too.


Pfft. I solo Platinum in 15 minutes. 

With a predator. 

On a level 0 Drell Adept. 

In my dreams, anyway. 

#100
CNevarezN

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Being aware of one's surroundings is the most important thing in this game. Anyone can shoot, anyone can cast powers but if you're not aware of your flank, or that unguarded ladder, or your 6 then you're going to die. That's what it basically boils down to. Wether you're a GI or not.