209 réponses à ce sujet

[xsdob]

So becasue ashley was skeptical about you after, you know, coming back from the dead good as new through some technology you don't even understand, she's a bad person?

Forgive me for liking her for showing some goddamn common sense than. If I heard my friend/lover had died for two years, than was brought back to life from something he can't explain, I wouldn't trust them much either.

Espically if it's from an orginization that's known to use sleeper agents and have some of the best of earth working for them.

Modifié par xsdob, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[Nightwriter]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Gonna do a repeat of what i said in a thread last night....

Ashley is demonized by immature Mass Effect fans as a racist bible-thumping Jesus freak b**** because it decomplexifies her.

To stereotype her is both easier and more compatible with what some fans think a young woman in a futuristic space-exploration settting "should be". Namely that such a person should be atheist, passive, and completely trust of all aliens. This mindframe makes it very difficult to actually engage in any sort of discussion regarding religion or "racial politics" in a near-future space setting.

You cannot allow Gene Roddenberry's narrow interpretation of the future to constrain the discussion and progression of far more reasonable depictions of science-fiction and the near future.

Actually I was a bit critical of Ashley's opinions in ME1 because they came from a place of inexperience and prioritized race and nationality over character and individual merit. At first I thought she might just distrust Wrex and Garrus because one was a merc and one was former C-Sec. That would have been understandable. But you ask her whether it's simply because they're nonhumans and she goes into a story about how her family was basically ruined by a confrontation with nonhumans, and she also admits that is pretty much the extent of her knowledge of aliens.

I did not think Ashley's opinions about political caution were wrong. In fact, her cynicism was proven completely justified in ME3 when the Council says that the siege of Earth is buying them time to prepare. My objections were more a matter of her making racial assumptions about members of my crew and making judgments from an imbalanced or uninformed perspective.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:23 .

[Iakus]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

iakus wrote...

The way it sounds like your Shepard handled it, yes.

Ignore her, berate her, get the salarian Councilor killed and show no real interest in convincing her you're not with Cerberus anymore.

In other words, don't pander to her.

You have a funny definition of "don't pander"

And by "funny"  I mean "scary" 

"So were you, I hope the Reapers send you to hell"

"were you"

Otherwise known as past tense, not present, so she took the time to admit that Shepard isn't with Cerberus just before she told him she hopes the Reapers send him to hell, because Garrus shot her.

So she thinks Shepard was also involved in the coup.  Shepard "was working for Cerberus"

Modifié par iakus, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:14 .

[Rafficus III]

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

[Clayless]

iakus wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

"So were you, I hope the Reapers send you to hell"

"were you"

Otherwise known as past tense, not present, so she took the time to admit that Shepard isn't with Cerberus just before she told him she hopes the Reapers send him to hell, because Garrus shot her.

So she thinks Shepard was also involved in the coup.  Shepard "was working for Cerberus"

So she still thought Shepard was working for Cerberus despites him telling her repeatedly that he isn't?

Him not shooting her.

Udina pulling a gun on another council member.

And him not shooting Udina.

That makes that comment perfectly reasonable?

Edit:

Actually that doesn't make sense to what Shepard said.

"He was with Cerberus"

"So were you".

So she did acknowledge he's not working with them.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:22 .

[Clone 071]

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

[xsdob]

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Most aliens are racist towards humans, calling us violent oppurtunistic upstarts and treating us as such. It's very noticible, espically if you let the council die.

I was always a paragon, but the fact that people exist who are not all love and tolerate with eachother I like. It's a lot more realistic.

[Steelcan]

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Wrex is very justified in his dislike of turiians and salarians as is Tali in regards to the geth.  Javik is stuck in a 50,000 year old mind set.  The last time he saw humans, mammoths were a part of our diet.

[Iakus]

[quote]Our_Last_Scene wrote...

"So were you, I hope the Reapers send you to hell"

"were you"

Otherwise known as past tense, not present, so she took the time to admit that Shepard isn't with Cerberus just before she told him she hopes the Reapers send him to hell, because Garrus shot her.

[/quote]

So she thinks Shepard was also involved in the coup.  Shepard "was working for Cerberus"

[/quote]
[quote]
So she still thought Shepard was working for Cerberus despites him telling her repeatedly that he isn't?[/quote]

Sounds like your protestations were either ineffective or not as "repeating" as you claim

[quote]
Him not shooting her.[/quote]

So Shepard got a dupe to do it for him.

[quote]
Udina pulling a gun on another council member.[/quote]

After Ash is already shot

[quote]
And him not shooting Udina.[/quote]

But with footage showing Shepard killing the salarian Councilor.

[quote]
That makes that comment perfectly reasonable?

[/quote]

Given I already find the general attitude towards Ash unreasonable?

Modifié par iakus, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[Iakus]

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

See, that's "cool" racism, so it's okay 

/sarcasm

[Clone 071]

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Wrex is very justified in his dislike of turiians and salarians as is Tali in regards to the geth.  Javik is stuck in a 50,000 year old mind set.  The last time he saw humans, mammoths were a part of our diet.

Don't get me wrong, I know Wrex and Tali reasons are justified, but it's still racism nonetheless. "Cool" racism or not, it doesn't make any difference.

As for Javik, same could be said for some elderly folk out there prior to the Civil Rights era and even the Women's Rights era in the US. They're stuck in their old ways with racism issues, and nothing will change that.

Modifié par Clone 071, 06 décembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

iakus wrote...

She wants to be sure Shepard is the same Shepard as in ME1.  Thus why seh has to "get to know him again"  She has to see that Shepard's not a puppet of the Illusive Man.

I guess I feel like the burden of proof she requests is unreasonable, especially since her foundations for suspicion are fairly slim to start with.

iakus wrote...
And in that scene, for romanced Ash at least, it's possible to still reassure her.

This is like the fourth time reassuring her. At some point she's going to have to take something I say on faith.

[justafan]

We see plenty of aliens racist against humanity, but just because Ashley likes to crack some non PC jokes, she gets attacked. She was by no means a fan of aliens in ME1, but the reason I liked her was because she presented a type of grounded person you don't really see elsewhere.

After all, the First Contact War was only 30 years ago, and at the time a human hating Turian spectre is trying to wipe out all of humanity (or so everyone thinks). Plus, I was actually surprised they had her discuss religion. It made the universe feel more real that you don't see often in scifi (which is part of the reason I loved Firefly). Overall, she was a very interesting character who got a lot of development in ME1, something a lot of Ash bashers seem to forget.

[Steelcan]

Clone 071 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Wrex is very justified in his dislike of turiians and salarians as is Tali in regards to the geth.  Javik is stuck in a 50,000 year old mind set.  The last time he saw humans, mammoths were a part of our diet.

Don't get me wrong, I know Wrex and Tali reasons are justified, but it's still racism nonetheless. "Cool" racism or not, it doesn't make any difference.

As for Javik, same could be said for some elderly folk out there prior to the Civil Rights era and even the Women's Rights era in the US. They're stuck in their old ways with racism issues, and nothing will change that.

Except JAvik didn't witness anything.  He woke up one day and wa told that the most primitive people from his cycle were now operating spacecraft.

[Clone 071]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

iakus wrote...
And in that scene, for romanced Ash at least, it's possible to still reassure her.

This is like the fourth time reassuring her. At some point she's going to have to take something I say on faith.

How about after the Citadel Coup if she's still alive, both she and Shepard are on good terms, and she gets a spot back on the Normandy? There's no questioning of loyalty afterwards.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Clone 071 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

iakus wrote...
And in that scene, for romanced Ash at least, it's possible to still reassure her.

This is like the fourth time reassuring her. At some point she's going to have to take something I say on faith.

How about after the Citadel Coup if she's still alive, both she and Shepard are on good terms, and she gets a spot back on the Normandy? There's no questioning of loyalty afterwards.

That's not really faith, is it? I'll take her back, but the thing I say to EDI about my expecting crew to follow their own judgment when receiving orders? No longer applies to Ash. I don't trust her judgment and expect her to follow her orders exactly as given.

[Iakus]

[quote]SeptimusMagistos wrote...

[quote]iakus wrote...

She wants to be sure Shepard is the same Shepard as in ME1.  Thus why seh has to "get to know him again"  She has to see that Shepard's not a puppet of the Illusive Man.[/quote]

I guess I feel like the burden of proof she requests is unreasonable, especially since her foundations for suspicion are fairly slim to start with.[/quote]

She knows she's being unreasonable.  That's why she says "I doubt anything you say could convince me"  Listen to the tone.  She's not angry about it, she's resigned.  She wants to believe, she wants to be reassured, but it's simply not in her nature to be trusting.  And she's pleasantly suprised when Shepard does.

[quote]iakus wrote...
And in that scene, for romanced Ash at least, it's possible to still reassure her.
[/quote]

This is like the fourth time reassuring her. At some point she's going to have to take something I say on faith.

[/quote]

Third actually. 

And given the next time Shepard speaks to her is at the hospital where she says she accepts that Shep's cut all ties to Cerberus.

[Clone 071]

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Wrex is very justified in his dislike of turiians and salarians as is Tali in regards to the geth.  Javik is stuck in a 50,000 year old mind set.  The last time he saw humans, mammoths were a part of our diet.

Don't get me wrong, I know Wrex and Tali reasons are justified, but it's still racism nonetheless. "Cool" racism or not, it doesn't make any difference.

As for Javik, same could be said for some elderly folk out there prior to the Civil Rights era and even the Women's Rights era in the US. They're stuck in their old ways with racism issues, and nothing will change that.

Except JAvik didn't witness anything.  He woke up one day and wa told that the most primitive people from his cycle were now operating spacecraft.

What about the geth and the "throw it out the airlock" scenario? He cares for the AI just as much as Han'Gerrel does, and that's because he experienced the same in his cycle some 50,000 years ago.

[Steelcan]

Clone 071 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Clone 071 wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Several characters in Mass Effect are racist, even the fan favorites Mordin and Wrex. Technically speaking, we're all animals so attempting to make it seem like a flagrant insult while overlooking the obvious is kind of tunnel vision.

Adding on to the fan favorite list: Javik. And to some extent in ME1, Garrus. (He did not like Tali a whole lot there.) Even Tali herself in concerns with the geth in ME1.

Wrex is very justified in his dislike of turiians and salarians as is Tali in regards to the geth.  Javik is stuck in a 50,000 year old mind set.  The last time he saw humans, mammoths were a part of our diet.

Don't get me wrong, I know Wrex and Tali reasons are justified, but it's still racism nonetheless. "Cool" racism or not, it doesn't make any difference.

As for Javik, same could be said for some elderly folk out there prior to the Civil Rights era and even the Women's Rights era in the US. They're stuck in their old ways with racism issues, and nothing will change that.

Except JAvik didn't witness anything.  He woke up one day and wa told that the most primitive people from his cycle were now operating spacecraft.

What about the geth and the "throw it out the airlock" scenario? He cares for the AI just as much as Han'Gerrel does, and that's because he experienced the same in his cycle some 50,000 years ago.

And based on what he saw in his cycle I think anybody would hate AI, he watched his species get eradicated by machines

[Iakus]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

That's not really faith, is it? I'll take her back, but the thing I say to EDI about my expecting crew to follow their own judgment when receiving orders? No longer applies to Ash. I don't trust her judgment and expect her to follow her orders exactly as given.

Turning on Udina is as big an act of faith as is ever shown in the Mass Effect trilogy.  Ash is betting her own life and the lives of the Council that Shepard is on the level here.  If she's wrong, and Shepard is setting them up, the galaxy is screwed.  

[iSousek]

I think some of you here don't understand what rascism is. There is no such thing as justified or cool rascism.

[SeptimusMagistos]

iakus wrote...

She knows she's being unreasonable.  That's why she says "I doubt anything you say could convince me"  Listen to the tone.  She's not angry about it, she's resigned.  She wants to believe, she wants to be reassured, but it's simply not in her nature to be trusting.  And she's pleasantly suprised when Shepard does.

But that's the problem.

iakus wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

This is like the fourth time reassuring her. At some point she's going to have to take something I say on faith.

Third actually. 

I'm counting Horizon. Which was the reasonable time to trust Shepard. He'd trust her if the positions were reversed.

iakus wrote...
And given the next time Shepard speaks to her is at the hospital where she says she accepts that Shep's cut all ties to Cerberus.

Which is nice, I'll admit. But it comes out kind of suddenly considering her previous comments on the matter and feelings aren't improved by the eventual standoff. While that's the one part of this whole thing I've never blamed her for, it doesn't help assuage hurt feelings from the previous interactions.

[FlyinElk212]

Why the heck is Ashley getting demonized like crazy all of the sudden?

[xsdob]

So do we ignore shepard being brought back from the dead when talking about her? And how she's the only one who reacts semi-realistically to hearing this, with shock and uncertainty?

[iSousek]

Can you guys refresh my memory a bit. You say you have confronted her four times about Cerberus ties, yet I only remember Mars mission and the resolution at the hospital scene. That makes it one, two if you count Horizon (which I don't because you are obviously forking with Cerberus at that point)