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Women Gamers and the style of the female crew


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#301
StayFrosty05

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So nobody is going to point out James' 12-pack abs or his car sized arms? How about Jacob, who's chest is higher-rez than his face? Or Thane, who was literally made to be a love interest? What about Steve, Kaidan, and MShep, the latter of which is literally a male model.

Like earlier, is it somehow less sexist when it's the men who are objectified? Why do only 2 other people in this thread even acknowledge the point and the hypocrisy surrounding the sexualizatiom of the genders? Everyone seems to be crying foul over Miranda's heels and suit, but James' Michelangelo chest gets a free pass?

None of those characters save Thane walk around with a lot of exposed skin or impractical battle outfits.

You'll notice that nobody's been complaining about Tali or Kasumi either, for the same reason.


Thank you Cthulhu...I do note your comment was ignored though....too hard basket maybe?

As for my own thoughts....James wears Armor in Combat, no Conan knickers for him when shooting the bad guys (the equivalent of Samara's and Jacks outfits).....Jacob, just ewww.....:sick:....yes his out fit was as bad as Miranda's, though at least he isn't quite dumb enough to wear heels into battle, he does still look almost as ridiculous as the ME skimpy battle ladies though, I will give you that one.....Thane, a small square hole exposing a modicum of green skin, so what.....What about Steve and Kaidan, did I miss something? Kaidan wears real Armor in combat and Steve isn't a combateer and just wears the standard issue rolled sleeve shirt with Army Cargo's.....As for Sheps face, I never found the default attractive at all, so, sorry it means little to me.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 07 décembre 2012 - 07:59 .


#302
Sable Rhapsody

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I don't mind if outfits are revealing or sexy (for male or female characters) as long as it fits with the character concept. And IMO that was fine in ME1 and 2 (with the exception of Samara).  

I did take issue with Ashley's jumpsuit armor in ME3. If she'd been the kind of character who would wear lighter, more form-fitting armor, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but I never got any indication that the change in armor was due to a change in character. That came off as simple pandering.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 07 décembre 2012 - 08:33 .


#303
RinuCZ

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o Ventus wrote...
So nobody is going to point out James' 12-pack abs or his car sized arms? How about Jacob, who's chest is higher-rez than his face?
...

Well, I already spent time explaining what's wrong about James' design in a different thread some time ago, so it seemed like repeating myself. I did point out Jacob who I don't think I have ever used as an argument in ME3 threads.

#304
sH0tgUn jUliA

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KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So nobody is going to point out James' 12-pack abs or his car sized arms? How about Jacob, who's chest is higher-rez than his face? Or Thane, who was literally made to be a love interest? What about Steve, Kaidan, and MShep, the latter of which is literally a male model.

Like earlier, is it somehow less sexist when it's the men who are objectified? Why do only 2 other people in this thread even acknowledge the point and the hypocrisy surrounding the sexualizatiom of the genders? Everyone seems to be crying foul over Miranda's heels and suit, but James' Michelangelo chest gets a free pass?


Okay since you keep bringing it up.....

James has been scoring steroids. It's obvious. Do I complain about his wearing a tee shirt? No. Why? I see muscley guys in tight tee shirts every day, and he's usually working out like those guys are. I don't give them a second look anymore.

And Jacob's abs? I wish they'd put as much effort into his character.

I think the pro-wrestling trope is being used for character design for both sexes. The big muscle bound ******. Except James isn't dumb; he just doesn't know jack, and he's the first to tell you. But do you guys complain about the truck sized Marcus, Dom, Baird, and company in Gears of War? No.

And the reason it's not brought up is this: A guy goes out of the house like that no one says a word. A guy goes into the supermarket and gets a six pack of beer like that no one says a word.

A woman goes out of the house dressed like Miranda, Samara, or one of the others and what does she hear? w****.


From who? I've heard women say that sort of thing more often than men.


And your point is?

#305
AkodoRyu

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o Ventus wrote...

So nobody is going to point out James' 12-pack abs or his car sized arms? How about Jacob, who's chest is higher-rez than his face? Or Thane, who was literally made to be a love interest? What about Steve, Kaidan, and MShep, the latter of which is literally a male model.


I believe the thread's title might be a bit different. I'd be interested in reading what guys have to say, but surprisingly they rarely speak out in this matter, and - here you go, it's used as the "double standard" excuse.

Go, make a topic. Discuss it from male's perspective, I certainly can't, because I'm not in their heads. Male gamers and the style of the male crew in ME games. I'd be very interested to follow.

But if you really insist:

Personally Jacob and James hit me the same way Ashley or Miranda do, but for a slightly different reason. Their builds look unfamiliar to me, I really don't see guys with such bodies around, thus it strikes me as odd, because I have no comparison, I have to stop paying attention to the fact of weird men builds and weird women outfits to finally start enjoying my game. I never find aliens in this game physically "attractive" as well.
As for female builds, simple, I am more interested in design of females than males. I look on pictures of females more often than males. I wasn't interested in a "male sex object" by now, because I simply don't know what you find as one. And when I'm judging people by looks in real life... Oh wait, I don't do that. Except for the part where I treat older than me people as authorities, I'm polite and submissive, because that's how I was raised.

I don't think in categories "why this guy is wearing ass-tight suit", but rather "why this dude looks like a giant reversed triangle?". Similary to "why does Miranda's ass looks like she had cushions attached there?"

In ME1 Kaidan and Shep, similar to Ash/FemShep/Liara, had the same, undetailed and manequinnish bodies, which are never exposed to full view, and they make their role implying there's nudity there, the rest is left to your imagination.

In ME3 Kaidan and Shep fell victims of same resources reuse, but for the full frontal view - it's something I can't take seriously again, doesn't matter if it's male, female, if there's no variety, things become sterile and I'm tending to ignore them to get over the fact - while there's a whole lot of variety between Miranda, Eva, Samara and Ashley. Doesn't mean this and everything else is not there and I can't talk about it. It helps me clarify my own confused and often superficial feelings as well.

Ooh, and two more things:
- I "liked" Kaidan in ME1 before he undressed. He had me at: "what, there are some romances in the game? Let's push the button and see what happens." And it just stay that way, I learned to appreciate him later, not in the game, but here, among other Kaidanites.
- Thane have a bare chest? Seriously? I thought it's just a part of his suit is green... Again, technical issue, I never noticed it, because the material used was no different from the rest of his clothes.

This is how the "male" part looks from my perspective.

#306
InvincibleHero

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J. Reezy wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

There are plenty of female marines in 3, Reach, ODST, etc..

Indeed...Image IPB

And there's nothing oversexualized here. Halo pulls off female marines quite well.

Very professional attire, but what are those 38 DDDs? Most "dancers" have smaller than that.

#307
Wintermist

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XCOM: Enemy Unknown does it brilliantly. Even though I don't like what they did with the XCOM title, I think they did an excellent job with the design and movement of the characters (and I like the combat).

#308
Jadebaby

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Now that I can finally give my two cents on this issue... I don't care.

I agree that the female attire has taken a slippery-slope from ME1-ME3. And certain attributes have increased in size without any apparent reason (other than marketing). But did this really surprise anyone? Considering BioWare are trying to attract as much attention to their product as possible you could go so far to say this kind of stuff should have been expected.

And instead of asking woman what they think. I think it's more important to ask people what they think about the kind of message it sends the children that they're trying to attract to the franchise.

Especially when these skimpily dressed, overtly unrealistic woman are sexable.

#309
Obsidian Gryphon

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For a lark, if they wanna go cheesy, I wished they'd taken a leaf out of this. :P :lol::lol:

Image IPB

#310
o Ventus

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

So you're saying Thane is as sexualized as Miranda, Samara and Ashley? Really?


No, I'm saying Thane is more sexualized than Samara and Miranda (you're right about Ashley). Miranda and Samara weren't created explicitly to be love interests. The intent matters just as much as the act itself. It doesn't detract from Thane being a badass, so it doesn't personally bother me.

#311
Jadebaby

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Thane being created specifically to be a LI seems a bit odd considering his terminal illness and barely non-existant romance in ME3. In fact, didn't the writer who did Thane actually admit he forgot he was romancable when he wrote him? Or was that Jacob?

#312
o Ventus

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

Thane being created specifically to be a LI seems a bit odd considering his terminal illness and barely non-existant romance in ME3. In fact, didn't the writer who did Thane actually admit he forgot he was romancable when he wrote him? Or was that Jacob?


It was Thane, but Thane has a different writer in ME3 than in ME2, not that it's any excuse.

#313
Jadebaby

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I'd love a link, or did he say it at a convention? It really is terrible...

#314
o Ventus

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

I'd love a link, or did he say it at a convention? It really is terrible...


It was a tweet linked on BSN. I'm entirely certain it's present in the Thane thread (one of them) in the romance board.
When I find it I will send it to you. 

#315
Jadebaby

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o Ventus wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I'd love a link, or did he say it at a convention? It really is terrible...


It was a tweet linked on BSN. I'm entirely certain it's present in the Thane thread (one of them) in the romance board.
When I find it I will send it to you. 

Image IPB

#316
KingZayd

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

So nobody is going to point out James' 12-pack abs or his car sized arms? How about Jacob, who's chest is higher-rez than his face? Or Thane, who was literally made to be a love interest? What about Steve, Kaidan, and MShep, the latter of which is literally a male model.

Like earlier, is it somehow less sexist when it's the men who are objectified? Why do only 2 other people in this thread even acknowledge the point and the hypocrisy surrounding the sexualizatiom of the genders? Everyone seems to be crying foul over Miranda's heels and suit, but James' Michelangelo chest gets a free pass?


Okay since you keep bringing it up.....

James has been scoring steroids. It's obvious. Do I complain about his wearing a tee shirt? No. Why? I see muscley guys in tight tee shirts every day, and he's usually working out like those guys are. I don't give them a second look anymore.

And Jacob's abs? I wish they'd put as much effort into his character.

I think the pro-wrestling trope is being used for character design for both sexes. The big muscle bound ******. Except James isn't dumb; he just doesn't know jack, and he's the first to tell you. But do you guys complain about the truck sized Marcus, Dom, Baird, and company in Gears of War? No.

And the reason it's not brought up is this: A guy goes out of the house like that no one says a word. A guy goes into the supermarket and gets a six pack of beer like that no one says a word.

A woman goes out of the house dressed like Miranda, Samara, or one of the others and what does she hear? w****.


From who? I've heard women say that sort of thing more often than men.


And your point is?


I was just saying that maybe women should stop calling each other ****s?

#317
Dominus

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I am in agreement that if the "sexified" outfits can't be toned down, they should preferably be added in the alternative-outfit category if they're to make an appearance. Had EDI doned the alternate costume shortly after her "new" appearance in ME3, gripes on the sexification would've been cut severely. The plausibility of Ashley Williams adding mascara and other makeup before every mission is drastically low.

#318
kumquats

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I could care less what the NPCs look like.
But I like Miranda's catsuit. Always reminds me of Cate Archer or Emma Peel.

Catsuits are awesome, stop the hate!

#319
AkodoRyu

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I honestly never seen anyone hating at Kasumi's catsuit and guess what - it doesn't look uncomfortable, doesn't look like it's wrong size in her crotch and *gasp* has no heels!

#320
RinuCZ

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kumquats wrote...

I could care less what the NPCs look like.
But I like Miranda's catsuit. Always reminds me of Cate Archer or Emma Peel. 

Catsuits are awesome, stop the hate!

Okay. :)

Modifié par RinuCZ, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:19 .


#321
Clayless

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

And instead of asking woman what they think. I think it's more important to ask people what they think about the kind of message it sends the children that they're trying to attract to the franchise.

Especially when these skimpily dressed, overtly unrealistic woman are sexable.


Mass Effect isn't for kids.

#322
Guest_Arcian_*

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InvincibleHero wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

There are plenty of female marines in 3, Reach, ODST, etc..

Indeed...Image IPB

And there's nothing oversexualized here. Halo pulls off female marines quite well.

Very professional attire, but what are those 38 DDDs? Most "dancers" have smaller than that.

Some women are just born blessed (or cursed).

#323
giftfish

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The physical attributes and dress of any character in a video game, male or female, should be in line with their personality, profession, environment, etc.  Especially for an RPG.  This will ensure that the game stays immersive for the player.

That being said, my playthrough of the series went from ME2 > ME1 > ME3.  After ME2 I was surprised at the "blandness" of the armor and lack of sexualization of any of the characters in ME1.  And, I thought it was incredibly refreshing.  Everything seemed "appropriate".  Shepard and crew were in a military ship, and their dress showed that.  When they disembarked they were in full armor andn helmets.  None of the women wore too much makeup or had elaborate hairstyles. Everyone was sort of "average" for their body-type, and they were all physically in-shape which made sense. 

You could argue that there was a lack of variety in body models, but that the same time, it seemed that an effort was made to not make breasts and butts big, just to make breasts and butts big.  It was respectful to everyone.  Except Matriarch Benezia.  That was really uncalled for, I mean....wtf was that?

In ME2, character appearance took a much more central role.  Characters were on a Cerberus ship, which likely had different standards for personnel appearance.  In addition, the squad was a hodgepodge of people, so everyone had different dress.  FemShep's breasts and butt grew a small bit, but nothing too immersion-breaking.  But, FemShep notwithstanding, there were now breasts and butts everywhere!

I found it difficult to have a conversation with Samara without staring at her cleavage the entire time.  It was distracting, and it de-humanized her character, which considering she's a little bit akin to a female monk, was pretty disturbing.  Jack's outfit, while fitting her personality was just horribly impractical. There's no way those straps would have stayed in place in a fight.  Miranda's bust was a bit less distracting than Samara's, but it was still ample.  Her outfit while fine for on the ship, was also impractical for combat. If the player had LOTSB, Liara's chest grew as well.  Everyone's butt grew.

Jacob had multiple butt shots, and a catsuit, as well.  He *was* Miranda's counterpart, the problem is that most players didn't like his personality and how he was written.  BioWare could have been a bit more liberal with Thane -- had him shirtless, for example -- but for whatever reason didn't.  Like asari, drell are relatively humanoid in appearance, and I know the Thane fans would have appreciated a bare-chested shot of him like Jacob had.  I can understand BW's hesitation to go that route with Garrus, but if BW isn't afraid of makign a love scene with the very humanoid asari, they shouldn't be afraid to do the same thing with the very humanoid drell.  It seems like more oversexualization of female NPCs -- laced with a bit of favoritism.

ME3 saw even more growth of boobs and butts - -this time for FemShep even more so.  Not to mention camel toes.  The redos for Ashley and Kelly were horrible in my opinion, and seriously undermined their characters.   It was inappropriate and detracted from them as individuals.  It broke immersion.

Of course the Mass Effect series sexualized women (not to mention some of the men).  What's really sad is that it treats women SO much better than so many of the other games out there.  As a result, many folks think we should "be happy" with what we do get from BW.  it should be "good enough".

I'm sorry, but I don't settle for "good enough".

The objectification of women is deeply ingrained in our society, and it doesn't help that the video game industry is dominated by men.  I don't say that in an attempt to make men sound "evil" -- they aren't (well, some are; yeah, you know who you are :P).  However, they will lack the feminine perspective. That combined with the fact that game companies specifically market to mostly the male gender, makes it difficult to elicit change.

Once game companies like EA figure out that their customerbase (and profits) can essentially double by ALSO marketing and making games that appeal to FEMALES, then we might make some headway in this department.

Modifié par giftfish, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:41 .


#324
Necrotya

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kumquats wrote...

I could care less what the NPCs look like.
But I like Miranda's catsuit. Always reminds me of Cate Archer or Emma Peel.

Catsuits are awesome, stop the hate!


+ 7 of 9 ( btw loved Cate A.char )

#325
TheRealJayDee

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DominusVita wrote...

The plausibility of Ashley Williams adding mascara and other makeup before every mission is drastically low.