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[KiwiQuiche]

Obvakhi wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...
Samara
A nearly thousand-year-old alien, and a member of an ancient monastic order following a strict honor code. None of that screams "cleavage window and heels" to me. She is supposed to be a mystic warrior and if the designers wanted to make her more feminine there are other ways to do that. I don't understand why character designers seem to think feminine= cleavage and heels

I find it funny that people complain about Samara's cleavage while Thane's chest is exposed just as much as Samara's... yet no one blinks an eye.

Oh come on, Thane has nowhere near as much hanging out as Samara; also he has a medical reason to have his chest exposed for more oxygen ventilation, so he kinda has an excuse.

[Lazengan]

fun fact:

a lot of artists are female

Kind of half the artists who draw sexualized costumes and characters are female
(see the actual difference between male artists and female artists is that female artists actually understand human anatomy, and males either don't or exaggerate for the lulz; see bayonetta)

All the bloody dress mods on Skyrim Nexus are made by female modders. All Fanart on Deviant Art have female authors

[Steelcan]

Exactly what FemShep should have looked like.  It took me forecer to find a decent picture of Sarah Palmer though......  They are all head shots.

And she is even voiced by Jennifer Hale

Modifié par Steelcan, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[o Ventus]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Oh come on, Thane has nowhere near as much hanging out as Samara; also he has a medical reason to have his chest exposed for more oxygen ventilation, so he kinda has an excuse.

Is this actually mentioned in-game? Regardless, it's clear the artist's intent with Thane. Especially since they've gone on record and explicitly said he was constructed first and foremost as a love interest.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:32 .

[Reth Shepherd]

Since you didn't read GreatBlueHeron's link about why cups are impractial, here is the transcript.

I believe most readers of fantasy (and some historical) fiction would be quite familiar with the depiction of women's breastplates with two separate bulges--one for each breast--as shown in some of the designs on this page (note that I'm NOT specifically blaming this armorer for the designs, especially in light of the clarification you'll see on top of the gallery if you follow the link). In this post, I'm going to discuss why this design is not a good idea on the practical level.


First and most importantly, having two breast-bulges on a solid breastplate would create a concave channel just over the wearer's breastbone. Most blows that strike the breast-bulges on the inner halves (i.e. the halves facing towards the center of the chest) would naturally get deflected into this channel. This becomes a serious problem when the armor has to deal with a powerful upwards thrust; the presence of the channel would tend to direct the thrust towards the middle of the chest and up beneath whatever throat protection the wearer had at the time, whether it be a bevor or a gorget or an aventail. An experienced fighter might actually be able to see this opportunity and exploit it as soon as he/she could engage the breastplate's wearer in a close-range thrusting fight with sword or dagger.

Compare this with a conventional breastplate design where the armor's rounded surfaces are built to deflect all blows in an outward direction. The design doesn't render it absolutely impossible for a thrust to get redirected under the wearer's throat defenses, but at least the likelihood of such an unfortunate event would be much, much lower than if the wearer had a breastplate with two breast-bulges. Moreover, many conventional breastplates (such as the works of Anton Pfeffenhausser displayed here) possess a pronounced vertical keel designed to deflect the opponent's thrusts away from the centerline of the wearer's body--which also means away from the wearer's throat.


As if that wasn't enough, twin-bulged breastplates ignore the anatomical makeup of the female breast itself. To make a long story short, the breast largely consists of fat and modified sweat glands (for the production of milk, that is), and hence it's not nearly as solid as a comparable mass of muscle. So all but the largest breasts can be bound quite flat against the woman's chest without occasioning too much discomfort. In turn, this means a fighting woman probably isn't going to need a breastplate with a chest profile larger than one worn by a fighting man of a similar height and general body shape, and therefore it's quite likely that the woman would simply fit into the man's breastplate with the aid of some padding to make up the slack in the waist and shoulders.


Of course we shouldn't forget to take account of how plate armor is supposed to fit against the body. Breastplates are called "breastplates" for a very good reason: it covers the breast. The waistline on a correctly-fitted breastplate actually doesn't lie on the modern trouser waist (i.e. around the navel), but slightly higher at the bottom of the ribs (that is, the position known as the "natural waist") This marks the very bottom edge of early cuirasses like the Churburg model shown here; later breastplates with articulated faulds (such as the two 15th-century examples shown here) have an additional section below made to protect the kidneys and the hips, which extends down to approximately the height of the hipbone. This feature tends to make a male wearer's torso look a little shorter and his legs a little longer than they really are, but one one hand it's necessary to preserve the armored man's freedom of movement--a lower position for the waistline and/or bottom edge would prevent the man from bending naturally at the waist--while on the other it has the side effect of making the male breastplate perfectly wearable by women, because its high-waisted design places the inevitable chest bulge (note that I'm talking about a singular bulge, not two bulges) in a good position to accommodate the woman's breasts if she were about as tall as or slightly taller than the man for which the breastplate was designed. Further examples of male breastplates with globose chests that would have easily accommodated a woman's torso inside can be seen in this page about 16th-century Imperial armors attributed to the armorer Kolman Helmschmied and this article on the decoration of European arms and armor in the 15th and 16th centuries. Additionally, this picture displays a reproduction armor in the 16th-century Maximilian style, while this image gallery shows a high-quality replica of a 15th-century armor in action; these last two examples give particularly good illustrations of how the chest bulge on their breastplates would fit against the body of a living wearer.

A second aspect of fit that would be worth examining is how closely the armor lies against the wearer's body. High-quality harnesses of plate were obviously made to an exact fit for the customer, which would make it easy for an experienced armorer to build a female armor with just some minor tinkering upon the proportions of a perfectly ordinary male armor. And yet, by the second half of the 15th century, the state of both metallurgy and the economy in Europe had improved to such a degree that plate armor could be produced in larger quantities and at lower prices than ever before. This led to an increasing trend for ordinary soldiers (below the pay grade of men-at-arms) to wear relatively cheap munitions-grade plate armor, principally on the upper half of their bodies. These munitions-grade pieces, being mass-produced rather than individually fitted, were generally made a bit large so that all but the burliest soldiers would be able to wear them without modification; most soldiers thus found their armor somewhat oversized, but for the most part they coped easily by wearing enough padding and/or additional clothing to provide a snug fit for the armor. A woman would have been perfectly able to use the same approach. In fact, if she weren't flat-chested, she would probably have had an easier time hiding her breasts in a munitions-grade breastplate than in the largely unarmored dress of later soldiers!


In conclusion, a female warrior who wants to wear a solid breastplate isn't going to need anything more than a male breastplate sized for a man of about the same height as her. It's hard to find better proof of this idea's practical and aesthetic advantages than these suits of armor . Even medieval artists seem to have understood the principles because this 15th-century depiction of Joan of Arc shows her in male armor without any fear of contradiction!


Edited to add: I've recently been informed (thanks, Matthew Amt!) that ancient Greek and Roman muscle cuirasses actually had a similar fit to medieval European breastplates in that their "waistline" lay noticeably higher than the wearer's navel, so the anatomy depicted on the cuirass was vertically "squashed" compared to the wearer's actual musculature. The pteryges (a skirt made of leather strips) hanging from the bottom of the cuirass) might have been meant to hide this feature in addition to providing a modicum of protection to the thighs. 

[KingZayd]

o Ventus wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...
Samara
A nearly thousand-year-old alien, and a member of an ancient monastic order following a strict honor code. None of that screams "cleavage window and heels" to me. She is supposed to be a mystic warrior and if the designers wanted to make her more feminine there are other ways to do that. I don't understand why character designers seem to think feminine= cleavage and heels

I find it funny that people complain about Samara's cleavage while Thane's chest is exposed just as much as Samara's... yet no one blinks an eye.

Or the fact that Jacob's clothes are just as tight as Miranda's. I guess sexualiZing a man is less sexist than sexualizing a woman.

I guess Cerberus likes their tight uniforms.

[Obvakhi]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...
Samara
A nearly thousand-year-old alien, and a member of an ancient monastic order following a strict honor code. None of that screams "cleavage window and heels" to me. She is supposed to be a mystic warrior and if the designers wanted to make her more feminine there are other ways to do that. I don't understand why character designers seem to think feminine= cleavage and heels

I find it funny that people complain about Samara's cleavage while Thane's chest is exposed just as much as Samara's... yet no one blinks an eye.

Oh come on, Thane has nowhere near as much hanging out as Samara; also he has a medical reason to have his chest exposed for more oxygen ventilation, so he kinda has an excuse.

Then why doesn't Kolyat have the same thing?...

[Obvakhi]

Steelcan wrote...


Exactly what FemShep should have looked like.  It took me forecer to find a decent picture of Sarah Palmer though......  They are all head shots.

And she is even voiced by Jennifer Hale

Keep that **** away from ME.
I suggest you stick to Halo then if you want them to wear tin cans so badly...
Each game has their own style... and I prefer it to stay that way. Since ME1, the armors have been skintight(the light armors looked like wet suits).

Also, do NOT compare video games to real life... it just doesn't work that way.

Modifié par Obvakhi, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:39 .

[Steelcan]

Obvakhi wrote...

Steelcan wrote...


Exactly what FemShep should have looked like.  It took me forecer to find a decent picture of Sarah Palmer though......  They are all head shots.

And she is even voiced by Jennifer Hale

Keep that **** away from ME.
I suggest you stick to Halo then if you want them to wear tin cans so badly...
Each game has their own style... and I prefer it to stay that way. Since ME1, the armors have been skintight(the light armors looked like wet suits).

Also, do NOT compare video games to real life... it just doesn't work that way.

My point is that female soldies in video games do not have to have their breats prominently displayed.  It is a diservice to the characters and fans.  Halo just does it better than ME

[StayFrosty05]

Lazengan wrote...

fun fact:

a lot of artists are female

Kind of half the artists who draw sexualized costumes and characters are female
(see the actual difference between male artists and female artists is that female artists actually understand human anatomy, and males either don't or exaggerate for the lulz; see bayonetta)

All the bloody dress mods on Skyrim Nexus are made by female modders. All Fanart on Deviant Art have female authors

Dress mods yes....revealing mods no....they are mostly male modders....Note how few revealing outfits there are for male characters....reveal for female characters far outweigh reveal for male characters.....but that's not stock/vanilla game....a higher standard of professionalism should be expected from gaming companies. I have absolutley no issue with revealing outfits, my modded Skyrim is quite naughty at times....but I would expect equal handling of male and female charcters in a stock game, whether that be revealing/sexulized or not.

Modifié par StayFrosty05, 07 décembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[o Ventus]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

I don't care how the women characters are dressed as long as it's a game I can ejnoy. Even if they weren't wearing any clothes, I couldn't care less It's just a game.

Finally, someone else with this viewpoint. As a male, I don't freak out when Vega appears topless with his truck sized biceps, shouting "Sexist!". The appearance of the character in a game is minor at best, pointlessly nitpicking at worst. It doesn't break your ability to play the game, nor does it break your ability to enjoy the game. You may as well be complaining about the ME3 Avenger being designated as the M-80 instead of the X-80 that it was in ME2.
I know the issue is brought up with good intentions, but really, who gives a damn? The men are sexualized just as much as the women, but literally nobody seems to care. 
/tangential rant

[spirosz]

o Ventus wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...

I don't care how the women characters are dressed as long as it's a game I can ejnoy. Even if they weren't wearing any clothes, I couldn't care less It's just a game.

Finally, someone else with this viewpoint. As a male, I don't freak out when Vega appears topless with his truck sized biceps, shouting "Sexist!". The appearance of the character in a game is minor at best, pointlessly nitpicking at worst. It doesn't break your ability to play the game, nor does it break your ability to enjoy the game. You may as well be complaining about the ME3 Avenger being designated as the M-80 instead of the X-80 that it was in ME2.
I know the issue is brought up with good intentions, but really, who gives a damn? The men are sexualized just as much as the women, but literally nobody seems to care. 
/tangential rant

Apparently, it does break the ability to enjoy the game as people have stated countless times.

Does it do that for me?  Helllllllllll no, but you know, BSN. 

[spirosz]

Lathrim wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...

I don't care how the women characters are dressed as long as it's a game I can enjoy. Even if they weren't wearing any clothes, I couldn't care less It's just a game.

Should I start about how pointless (Miranda, Samara, EDI cameltoe are some examples) sexualization of female characters is an obvious method to attract young men (21s and younger, generally), considered disrespectful by many women, turning them away from the game and even the whole industry, thus creating the whole "female gamers do not exist" mentality many, many men and even women adopt, which once again turns women away from the industry, making developers care less and less about that section of their fanbase, therefore turning females away from gaming even more? It is just a game, yes, but it is also creating misconceptions, giving games a bad reputation, et cetera.

Oh yeah... forgot about that EDI, tbh.  Bioware cray. 

[DirtySHISN0]

Steelcan wrote...
My point is that female soldies in video games do not have to have their breats prominently displayed.  It is a diservice to the characters and fans.  Halo just does it better than ME

They don't have to, but that isn't to say Halo doesn't fall at the same stumbling block. Cortana for example "naked" all the time.

It does do it, just not as much.

[o Ventus]

spirosz wrote...

Apparently, it does break the ability to enjoy the game as people have stated countless times.

Does it do that for me?  Helllllllllll no, but you know, BSN. 

I guarantee you a number of people who cry foul over this sort of thing are blowing it way out of proportion. If it actually hindered their ability to enjoy the game, then they probably wouldn't be enjoying the game.

Well, the first 2 games anyway. Maybe not so much 3.

[spirosz]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
My point is that female soldies in video games do not have to have their breats prominently displayed.  It is a diservice to the characters and fans.  Halo just does it better than ME

They don't have to, but that isn't to say Halo doesn't fall at the same stumbling block. Cortana for example "naked" all the time.

It does do it, just not as much.

True about Cortana.  Enhanced grafikz ftw, tbhz.

[Steelcan]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
My point is that female soldies in video games do not have to have their breats prominently displayed.  It is a diservice to the characters and fans.  Halo just does it better than ME

They don't have to, but that isn't to say Halo doesn't fall at the same stumbling block. Cortana for example "naked" all the time.

It does do it, just not as much.

Cortana isn't a soldier

[aMytallica]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

Wifflebottom wrote...
Samara
A nearly thousand-year-old alien, and a member of an ancient monastic order following a strict honor code. None of that screams "cleavage window and heels" to me. She is supposed to be a mystic warrior and if the designers wanted to make her more feminine there are other ways to do that. I don't understand why character designers seem to think feminine= cleavage and heels

I find it funny that people complain about Samara's cleavage while Thane's chest is exposed just as much as Samara's... yet no one blinks an eye.

Oh come on, Thane has nowhere near as much hanging out as Samara; also he has a medical reason to have his chest exposed for more oxygen ventilation, so he kinda has an excuse.

Thane was a character designed purely to appeal to the female audience. There's no difference. Would you have felt differently if Samara had a medical reason?..

[DirtySHISN0]

Sorry, was half watching a vid.

In that case if it is solely female soldier objectivization you were talking about, Halo has none.

But on the whole it is not exempt from "sexing things up for gamers",