230 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Feneckus wrote...

Adepts and Engineer have far weaker durability than Infiltrators.

This is not true.  Fitness is racial, not by class.  And certain adepts get damage reduction.  The only Infiltrator with any durability boosting skill is the Salarian.  A skill he shares with the Salarian Engineer, who isn't really any less durable.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
I was a noob once.

I used to think silver was damn hard. Then I played some Gold. Playing Gold with a non infiltrator was just out of the question, I couldn't have handled it.

Now I got better, I can carry 3 bad players with pretty much every class, I can kill stuff just as efficiently as a GI with a lot of classes, but I know all the advantages you get while playing an Infiltrator. I exploited all those advantages at one point because it was the only way I could extract on Gold on a regular basis. I know what I'm talking about. I was horrible when the game came out.

And here is your problem right here. You are expecting other players to even want to get better. Most are here to simply enjoy the game, you are taking it a bit too serious.

I was the exact same as you until a friend of mine got me to try Adepts on Gold and from there I decided I wanted to get better with everything. The majority of players on this game will never have the ability to use most if not all classes at a high level. Why take away their crutch? I would much rather have them play an Infiltrator and be somewhat decent than to play something else and be absolutely terrible and make me do that much more work in the game. Don't like Infiltrators? I am fine with that, but no need to nerf them when you can just avoid playing with them.

I really don't enjoy playing Infiltrators that much myself anymore, but really don't care if someone else does. Again, it is a game and we are all just looking to have fun.

Understood, but many people enjoy playing a game in large part because of the skill element involved.  If the rules of chess were tweaked so that your average 5-year-old could beat a Grandmaster, then this would ruin the game for many chess aficionados.  I personally don't enjoy games where just anybody can play and with little practice or time invested are capable of playing high levels.

Games have difficulty levels for a reason.  Higher levels of difficulty generally aren't intended for novices.  This makes the game better for everyone.  Nobody needs an overpowered class to enjoy this game.  You can have plenty of fun playing with any number of characters at the appropriate difficulty levels.

On the other hand, I can't have fun playing a game in which player skill is increasingly trivialized.

capn233 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Adepts and Engineer have far weaker durability than Infiltrators.

This
is not true.  Fitness is racial, not by class.  And certain adepts get
damage reduction.  The only Infiltrator with any durability boosting
skill is the Salarian.  A skill he shares with the Salarian Engineer,
who isn't really any less durable.

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:39 .

[capn233]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

[Operator m1]

Feneckus wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

The majority of players on this game will never have the ability to use most if not all classes at a high level. Why take away their crutch? 

I never said I wanted BW to nerf Infiltrators again. I realize many people would be upset and would quit playing, which would be a terrible idea since the game is slowly dying. Besides, I'd rather have a semi-competent Infiltrator in my lobby than a useless Engineer.

What I did say was that the game would have been better off without infiltrators. Then it would have made sense. Engineers would have been the best tech users, Soldiers would have been about DPS, Krogans would have been the best melee characters, Sentinels would have been the toughest to kill, no unnecessary nerfs, maybe Sabotage would have a decent cooldown, a Turian Soldier wouldn't feel bad about how pathetic his proxy mines are compared to the GI/SI, etc ...

There's a difference.

This was the closest thing you could do next to directly incite a nerf vs. anti nerf debate by labeling a class hurtful to the game (when in truth, more of the blame belongs to the vocal minority here because bioware listens to them, resulting in the geth engineer/turian havock issue).

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

This.

The only infiltrators that qualify as durable are SI, and TGI.

Modifié par Operator m1, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[DarkseidXIII]

Nerf ducks want nerfs because they're nerfducks. Also because they're a-holes. They're just cycling back around. Its been nerfed already.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

[NavySEALCommand]

Operator m1 wrote...

NavySEALCommand wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

To go along with that list must be the power cooldown time.

If I have a -200% cooldown, yet can still retain a 3 second cooldown because I break cloak using a power, AND be able to get a shot of with the damage boost, thats not something that seems to be balanced with the other classes capabilities that induce a short damage burst (i.e. Adrenaline Rush, Marksman). If that were to be changed, I think it would fit the Infiltrators role far better, while not making the Infiltrators useless.

I hope you're not implying there's no tradeoff for a heavy loadout on an infiltrator.

I dare you to do anything outside of using it as a damage steroid with -200% recharge speed and tell me there's no tradeoff.

AR and marksman do different things as damage steroids. Don't compare apples to oranges and call for balance.

There is a trade-off for anything and everything you can possibly imagine you can do in this game.

Also, why should Infiltrators be able to run a -200% cooldown effectively?

Leave that to the Soldiers (which is what it should be), while the Infiltrators run more stealth and hit and run tactics, where the Tactical Cloak damage boost could be utilized for a big one time damage boost or could be active for a long period of time, allowing for you to move around the map or capture an objective.

The Infiltrator (or any class for that matter) should be able to do this: www.youtube.com/watch

[Cyonan]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

That'd be a better comparison for something like Tech Armour, which actually protects the user.

TC grants you more survivability via avoidance(they can't shoot you if they can't see you), but I wouldn't say it actually makes you more durable. Your effective health and shields are still just as high as they would be without Tactical Cloak.

[billy the squid]

Feneckus wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

With all due respect, that's total BS. I'd rather trust my in-game experience than theoritical numbers.

UKStory135 wrote...

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

Not really. The GI, SI, QMI and TGI can do that with ammo powers.

Besides, tech combos do what ? 250 damage ? Now compare that with a BW/Javelin/Harrier/Claymore boosted by Tactical Cloak.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

The SI has energy drain. The GI has Hunter Mode and proxy mine. And they all have Tactical Cloak.

capn233 wrote...

Durability was the only weakness, until the Ghost.

Adepts and Engineer have far weaker durability than Infiltrators.

unclemonster wrote...

Feneckus...the real problem is that you are too good...
so you have trouble seeing things from a NOOB (or even AVERAGE-above average player perspective)
you are in a very small percentage of elite player base.

I was a noob once.

I used to think silver was damn hard. Then I played some Gold. Playing Gold with a non infiltrator was just out of the question, I couldn't have handled it.

Now I got better, I can carry 3 bad players with pretty much every class, I can kill stuff just as efficiently as a GI with a lot of classes, but I know all the advantages you get while playing an Infiltrator. I exploited all those advantages at one point because it was the only way I could extract on Gold on a regular basis. I know what I'm talking about. I was horrible when the game came out.

So Infiltrators have higher sustained DPS than a damage specced AR soldier or the Destroyer, Turians equipped with high level ARs and Marksman, especially with the previous racial buffs?

In terms of burst DPS I don't think anyone is really arguing that given the nature of the type of weapons often found on Infiltrators.

I wouldn't use the point of Ammo powers to determin whether a kit is overpowered or not. It should be held on it's own and compared like for like with another not throwing in ammo powers and gear etc. as the BSN does not consist of the vast majority of the player base, however much we may wish it to be. There are a few hundred of us that regular the forums, maybe. when you can check the leaderboards for the ranks to determine how many players there actually are. Whether they play actively is another matter entirely.

I would say that the issue is, the 40% / 80% universal damage boost to both weapons and powers. That is the only issue still remaining with Tac cloak after the previous nerf. It should be one or the other not both, personally I would lean on the side of the damage boost being weapon damage only, to stop the Inf. outclassing most engineers with the exception of the GE and Destroyer, those being the only ones I frequently use.

Soldiers hold their own in terms of firepower with an Inf. an Engineer doesn't when it comes to an 80% damage boost to overload it instantly becomes a power which will systematically beat anything an engineer can throw out without stacking gear and equipment.

Nor should you mix tech combo damage and weapon damage to seperate issues which have nothing to do with one another.

As to durability well you mentioned 2 classes, yet ignored the Demolishers supply pylon, Geth turret specced for shields, Reave, Energy drain, Justicar's bubble and the Krogan's Barrier. I don't use either class much so I don't comment further. But if they are that over powered then why not mention Soldier, Sentinels and Vanguard. Surely if they were inf. Would outclass them in terms of durability as well.

well the stim pack nerf was always coming that was a given an inf running round with 4000 max shields should have set alarm bells of before release. Problem is Durability? So Krogans with Rage mode, Barrier, Fortification on Geth troopers. The 100% shield boost from AR on soldiers. The heavy shield and health buffs to Turians to compete with Krogan and Batarians. Vorcha blood lust heath regen does not count as durable then, and it doesn't match an infiltrator? Really?

Tac cloak in terms of shifting attention gives you a little extra edge, in that slipping round a corner and using tac cloak shifts attention for all of 2 seconds before you cancel, fire and everyone starts shooting at you again. HM grants situational awareness at the expense on half your base shields and if you don't know what you're doing you're going to spend half the match face down after a Phantom decided to give you an enema with her sword.

Yet we've all seen enemies blind fire at your location and 5 seconds isn't going to create some game altering move where your team is overwhelmed I can achieve simmilar results by running to another part of the map and hiding as the rest of the team keeps shooting and draws aggro to them. In addition to wall hacking rockets, curving Atlas shots, stun locking Prime blasts which curve like they've been thrown by an Australian curve cricket bowler. You're representing things far more simply than they are and it's disingenuous. Not to mention Primes being able to see you, the magical x ray vision of dragoons, and splash damage which makes cloak irrelevant.

As to adepts, that issue is more akin to the Biotic powers, I felt, have been left behind somewhat as our manifests have become more filled. I mean, do a choose a Turian Sol. with a Mrk V Harrier or a Geth Inf. with a mrk VI Black widow, or I could choose an adept... Naaaaah. But then again that's just probably me as I tend to be crap with  power classes and mainly stick to Soldeirs, Inf, and Sentinels with a few exceptions.

In short, yes Inf. are a jack of all trades. And beat some classes in other aspects and not in others. The only issue I have with cloak after the previous nerf I reitterate is the 40% 80% universal damage boost to both powers and weapons. That's it. It should be limited to weapons.

Start mucking about with cooldown times and weight capacity as some people are, clearly they've never tried to use a Javelin, we'll be back shotgun inf. spam again. Although being able to fire a power cloak and fire another power due to the mechanics is stupid and should be fixed. That is not a class OP issue it's a Bioware coding issue and renders the second option on Tac cloak moot, unless you're suggesting that is a reason for a nerf because Bioware can't fix it's own mistakes.

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:02 .

[oXTheReverendXo]

Feneckus wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Feneckus...the real problem is that you are too good...
so you have trouble seeing things from a NOOB (or even AVERAGE-above average player perspective)
you are in a very small percentage of elite player base.

I was a noob once.

I used to think silver was damn hard. Then I played some Gold. Playing Gold with a non infiltrator was just out of the question, I couldn't have handled it.

Now I got better, I can carry 3 bad players with pretty much every class, I can kill stuff just as efficiently as a GI with a lot of classes, but I know all the advantages you get while playing an Infiltrator. I exploited all those advantages at one point because it was the only way I could extract on Gold on a regular basis. I know what I'm talking about. I was horrible when the game came out.

So when TC was better than it is now, you used it to help you ease into Gold. So did I. So did a lot of the other Gold/Plat regulars who are on the forum now. Many--if not most--of us did this before the TC was nerfed originally.

I'm sure many of the players playing now are doing the same thing, without the even bigger TC bonus we had when we did it. Why not allow them the same advantages we had?

The source of your problem (it seems, anyway) is the fact that other characters get the shaft when they share a power with an Infiltrator that BW decides gives that Infiltrator an unfair advantage. I agree that that is a problem. Instead of calling for a nerf to TC, however, why not call for BW to balance the characters' powers separately? We know from Arc Grenades that they can be different. BW made Arc Nades between QMs and the Demo the same. They weren't initially.

If it's a lore issue (and I doubt that it is with you), they could simply say that TC draws enough power to weaken powers that would otherwise be stronger on other classes or some such.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

That'd be a better comparison for something like Tech Armour, which actually protects the user.

TC grants you more survivability via avoidance(they can't shoot you if they can't see you), but I wouldn't say it actually makes you more durable. Your effective health and shields are still just as high as they would be without Tactical Cloak.

I'm really not interested in having a semantical discussion.  You both knew exactly what I meant.

[capn233]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

That is an imprecise analogy.

If you coat a deck with a wood sealer, it makes the wood resist damage more readily.  That would be like Fortification or Tech Armor.  If you instead put a sahde or tarp over the deck to prevent it from getting wet in the first place, you are avoiding the damage not making the deck more durable.  That is more akin to tactical cloak.

You can increase durability by increasing shields or damage protection.  Infiltrators are not superior to their racial peers in this regard.  Technically the Ghost wasn't more durable than the Havok either, but he is far removed from the paradigm of the other infiltrators which is basically average durability.  Hence my original comment.

It is possible to claim that Tactical Cloak grants equal or superior survivability relative to other classes since you can avoid fire.  Survivability is the ability to not get killed, and is really a mixture of durability and the ability to avoid fire.  This is brought to a head with the Ghost since he was the first Infiltrator to have substantially better durability than most other characters, while retaining the fire avoidance capability of other infiltrators.

edit:

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm really not interested in having a semantical discussion.  You both knew exactly what I meant.

If you didn't want to have a semantical discussion, you shouldn't have quoted my response to Feneckus without understanding what I was talking about.

Modifié par capn233, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:00 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

That is an imprecise analogy.

If you coat a deck with a wood sealer, it makes the wood resist damage more readily.  That would be like Fortification or Tech Armor.  If you instead put a sahde or tarp over the deck to prevent it from getting wet in the first place, you are avoiding the damage not making the deck more durable.  That is more akin to tactical cloak.

You can increase durability by increasing shields or damage protection.  Infiltrators are not superior to their racial peers in this regard.  Technically the Ghost wasn't more durable than the Havok either, but he is far removed from the paradigm of the other infiltrators which is basically average durability.  Hence my original comment.

It is possible to claim that Tactical Cloak grants equal or superior survivability relative to other classes since you can avoid fire.  Survivability is the ability to not get killed, and is really a mixture of durability and the ability to avoid fire.  This is brought to a head with the Ghost since he was the first Infiltrator to have substantially better durability than most other characters, while retaining the fire avoidance capability of other infiltrators.

edit:

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

I'm really not interested in having a semantical discussion.  You both knew exactly what I meant.

If you didn't want to have a semantical discussion, you shouldn't have quoted my response to Feneckus without understanding what I was talking about.

You're probably right.

[SlimJim0725]

Feneckus wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

The majority of players on this game will never have the ability to use most if not all classes at a high level. Why take away their crutch? 

I never said I wanted BW to nerf Infiltrators again. I realize many people would be upset and would quit playing, which would be a terrible idea since the game is slowly dying. Besides, I'd rather have a semi-competent Infiltrator in my lobby than a useless Engineer.

What I did say was that the game would have been better off without infiltrators. Then it would have made sense. Engineers would have been the best tech users, Soldiers would have been about DPS, Krogans would have been the best melee characters, Sentinels would have been the toughest to kill, no unnecessary nerfs, maybe Sabotage would have a decent cooldown, a Turian Soldier wouldn't feel bad about how pathetic his proxy mines are compared to the GI/SI, etc ...

There's a difference.

So that wasn't you that had a thread titled "anyone else sick of Infiltrators"? You know as well as I do that a thread like that will only bring about cries for nerfs whether you directly want them or not.

Infiltrators don't feel any better at being a tech user IMO than an Engineer since ammo explosions are weaker than power explosions taken to the final evolution (if they are the same as Biotic Explosions) and Engineers don't force me to pick an ammo type that can do a tech explosion (meaning I can use drill, warp, ap, explosive). Krogans won't die from 2 shots after a melee the same way a GI will if he doesn't catch everything (survivability = greater than overall damage done, it helps no one if you are down the whole game). There are maybe two Infiltrators that are actually just as good of a tank as any Sentinel and that is the SI and TGI due to ED and Stim Packs with cloak, any other Infiltrator can go down pretty easily if you make a mistake where a Sentinel could take a bit more abuse. I won't disagree about the Soldiers and Sabotage, but we will never know with Sabotage since only one character had it until recently.

[Operator m1]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

capn233 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Infiltrators are generally more durable than their Engineer counterparts b/c Tac Cloak enables one to draw less enemy attention and gunfire.

That does not make them more durable.

Ummm...yeah it does.  If you coat a wooden deck with a protective sealant, you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable.  But you have made your deck effectively more durable.

That'd be a better comparison for something like Tech Armour, which actually protects the user.

TC grants you more survivability via avoidance(they can't shoot you if they can't see you), but I wouldn't say it actually makes you more durable. Your effective health and shields are still just as high as they would be without Tactical Cloak.

I'm really not interested in having a semantical discussion.  You both knew exactly what I meant.

Yeah I know what you ment.

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
you technically haven't made the wood itself more durable

End of discussion. Can't really argue semantics on this considering how cloak doesn't really hide the user from attacking enemies over half the time.

Cloak =/= durability

Modifié par Operator m1, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[TheThirdSpectre]

Too many people think the Infiltrator is the best class in the game...they want it to balance with others.

They're not all that tanky, mabye the Ghost is and mabye not because Stim Pack has been nerfed. (Damn)

I play as the Infiltrator, Vanguard, Soldier and the Sentinel alot. Others less frequently...I carry 40% of the people I play with because they can't help themselves.


I hate Nerf Ducks...

[Kenadian]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

[capn233]

Kenadian wrote...

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

They beat out the least weapon focused infiltrator, in some situations.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

[billy the squid]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

It sounds dumb of you, if you consider something like a Krogan with rage mode and max shields, fortification and inferno grenades is a walking tank which ignores any notion of cooldown and weight. But you think he should have the same sustained DPS as the Human AR soldier or the Turian Sol. just so it can match an infiltrator. Despite being tougher than all of them?

That's why you don't make generalisations as it often leaves gaping holes which are easy to point out.

Modifié par billy the squid, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:52 .

[Operator m1]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

Sarcastically comparing different classes in damage output within a vaccum is not helping your argument.

Modifié par Operator m1, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:57 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

billy the squid wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

It sounds dumb of you, if you consider something like a Krogan with rage mode and max shields, fortification and inferno grenades is a walking tank which ignores any notion of cooldown and weight. But you think he should have the same sustained DPS as the Human AR soldier or the Turian Sol. just so it can match an infiltrator. Despite being tougher than all of them?

That's why you don't make generalisations as it often leaves gaping holes which are easy to point out.

Thanks jackass.  I see you ignored the generalization I was replying to.  Makes you look kind of biased.

[billy the squid]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

It sounds dumb of you, if you consider something like a Krogan with rage mode and max shields, fortification and inferno grenades is a walking tank which ignores any notion of cooldown and weight. But you think he should have the same sustained DPS as the Human AR soldier or the Turian Sol. just so it can match an infiltrator. Despite being tougher than all of them?

That's why you don't make generalisations as it often leaves gaping holes which are easy to point out.

Thanks jackass.  I see you ignored the generalization I was replying to.  Makes you look kind of biased.

An arse yes, but I know I can be like that already. Biased no. I already explained at length my issues with Fen's points and my issues with Tac Cloak. I'm not about to do so again. In another spat over who should have the highest sustaind DPS as clearly a Krogan Sol. should not be able to out DPS a Ghost. which is more the exception in terms of sustained DPS, due to it's damage reduction and shield boosting powers etc. I didn't realise I have to repeatedly point out the obviousness of this to several posters.

[mrs_anomaly]

Slimjim0725 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Slimjim0725 wrote...

The majority of players on this game will never have the ability to use most if not all classes at a high level. Why take away their crutch? 

I never said I wanted BW to nerf Infiltrators again. I realize many people would be upset and would quit playing, which would be a terrible idea since the game is slowly dying. Besides, I'd rather have a semi-competent Infiltrator in my lobby than a useless Engineer.

What I did say was that the game would have been better off without infiltrators. Then it would have made sense. Engineers would have been the best tech users, Soldiers would have been about DPS, Krogans would have been the best melee characters, Sentinels would have been the toughest to kill, no unnecessary nerfs, maybe Sabotage would have a decent cooldown, a Turian Soldier wouldn't feel bad about how pathetic his proxy mines are compared to the GI/SI, etc ...

There's a difference.

So that wasn't you that had a thread titled "anyone else sick of Infiltrators"? You know as well as I do that a thread like that will only bring about cries for nerfs whether you directly want them or not.

Infiltrators don't feel any better at being a tech user IMO than an Engineer since ammo explosions are weaker than power explosions taken to the final evolution (if they are the same as Biotic Explosions) and Engineers don't force me to pick an ammo type that can do a tech explosion (meaning I can use drill, warp, ap, explosive). Krogans won't die from 2 shots after a melee the same way a GI will if he doesn't catch everything (survivability = greater than overall damage done, it helps no one if you are down the whole game). There are maybe two Infiltrators that are actually just as good of a tank as any Sentinel and that is the SI and TGI due to ED and Stim Packs with cloak, any other Infiltrator can go down pretty easily if you make a mistake where a Sentinel could take a bit more abuse. I won't disagree about the Soldiers and Sabotage, but we will never know with Sabotage since only one character had it until recently.

For the most part this forum has been tons of fun for me but this surge of Infiltrator nerf threads on BSN has definitely cooled my heels on my daily gaming relaxation time (I'm ~600 hrs since release) . ME3 is shelved for awhile. I don't know if I'll come back. It is just the fact that higher profile players can influence Bioware to make changes that overall make it harder for regular players to enjoy the game. I've seen a lot of elite veteran players around here claim that things should be in fact slanted for them becuase they are the dedicated- but the reality is that Bioware needs all the noobs to play along too and all of the Bronze to intermediate players to support the system, buy copies, and participate in ME3 also. Catering specifically to the most elite players will kill ME3 multiplayer before any other game franchise will. 

[CmnDwnWrkn]

billy the squid wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

It sounds dumb of you, if you consider something like a Krogan with rage mode and max shields, fortification and inferno grenades is a walking tank which ignores any notion of cooldown and weight. But you think he should have the same sustained DPS as the Human AR soldier or the Turian Sol. just so it can match an infiltrator. Despite being tougher than all of them?

That's why you don't make generalisations as it often leaves gaping holes which are easy to point out.

Thanks jackass.  I see you ignored the generalization I was replying to.  Makes you look kind of biased.

An arse yes, but I know I can be like that already. Biased no. I already explained at length my issues with Fen's points and my issues with Tac Cloak. I'm not about to do so again. In another spat over who should have the highest sustaind DPS as clearly a Krogan Sol. should not be able to out DPS a Ghost. which is more the exception in terms of sustained DPS, due to it's damage reduction and shield boosting powers etc. I didn't realise I have to repeatedly point out the obviousness of this to several posters.

Because it really isn't obvious.  You say a Krogan Soldier shouldn't be able to out DPS a Ghost.  Then what should he be able to do better?  Melee?  Who cares if you aren't doing damage?  Putting yourself in close range while doing second-rate damage is not really doing anything meaningfully better than the Ghost.  And as far as the Krogan being a tank, I'd rather have the ability to instantly recharge shields any day of the week.  Turian Ghost has better survivability than the Krogan Soldier, assuming you're using and refilling Stim Packs.  So that's the real problem - these Infiltrators that can essentially do everything better than their counterparts.