230 réponses à ce sujet

[UnknownMercenary]

I don't want it to be nerfed but it's hard to deny that other classes suffer when Bioware tries to keep infiltrators in check.

[Feneckus]

billy the squid wrote...

So Infiltrators have higher sustained DPS than a damage specced AR soldier or the Destroyer, Turians equipped with high level ARs and Marksman, especially with the previous racial buffs?

Definitely true for the GI/SI/TGI/QMI. Don't know about the others.

As to durability well you mentioned 2 classes, yet ignored the Demolishers supply pylon, Geth turret specced for shields, Reave, Energy drain, Justicar's bubble and the Krogan's Barrier. I don't use either class much so I don't comment further. But if they are that over powered then why not mention Soldier, Sentinels and Vanguard. Surely if they were inf. Would outclass them in terms of durability as well.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges.

An Asari Infiltrator has an easier time staying alive than an Asari Adept.
Same thing for Human Infiltrator/Human Engineer

[capn233]

Feneckus wrote...

Same thing for Human Infiltrator/Human Engineer

It's because Cryo Blast is OP, clearly.

edit: and we already hashed out durability and survivability on the last page.

Modifié par capn233, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[Operator m1]

UnknownMercenary wrote...

I don't want it to be nerfed but it's hard to deny that other classes suffer when Bioware tries to keep infiltrators in check.

-People think GI/TGI are OP.

-They cry enough.

-Bioware listens to whiners.

-Stuff gets nerfed.

It's not the fault of infiltrators alone. The more vocal people are, the more stuff gets nerfed. Bioware acted on the sheer amount of complaining. If people didn't complain, it would be far less likely to be labled as a problem to be delt with in some way. 

Modifié par Operator m1, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[Tybo]

Just gonna throw this out there:

I don't think Infiltrators are terribly overpowered compared to Soldiers or Vanguards (in general).

But take any engineer or adept. Now imagine if you could replace one of their powers with Tactical Cloak. Wouldn't this be much much stronger? The fact that many infiltrators share powers with these means buffing these powers also buffs Infiltrators, so they can't be buffed too much. That is my only issue with tactical cloak.

[Feneckus]

Operator m1 wrote...

-Bioware listens to whiners.

Please.

Don't be stupid.

If they did listen, they'd have nerfed Geth a long time ago.

Instead of giving them even more stagger.

[capn233]

tyhw wrote...

But take any engineer or adept. Now imagine if you could replace one of their powers with Tactical Cloak. Wouldn't this be much much stronger? The fact that many infiltrators share powers with these means buffing these powers also buffs Infiltrators, so they can't be buffed too much. That is my only issue with tactical cloak.

Yes.  It should not grant weapon and power damage bonus at the same time.

If you could clean sheet design Tac Cloak, you might be able to code separate bonuses for power and weapon damage, or leave out one or the other entirely until you get to an evolution granting that bonus.  You could even make it so that the choice at Rank 4 was Weapon or Power Damage.  There could also be a case made that cloak should give no innate melee bonus, unless you take a specific evolution.

Since this is a ground up redesign, you could retool the recharge mechanics so that minimum cooldown is modified by Power Recharge Speed.

There isn't a lot to be done with the evolutions as is.  At least if you don't have the will to retool many powers and some weapons (which probably should happen anyway...).

[billy the squid]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...


Because it really isn't obvious.  You say a Krogan Soldier shouldn't be able to out DPS a Ghost.  Then what should he be able to do better?  Melee?  Who cares if you aren't doing damage?  Putting yourself in close range while doing second-rate damage is not really doing anything meaningfully better than the Ghost.  And as far as the Krogan being a tank, I'd rather have the ability to instantly recharge shields any day of the week.  Turian Ghost has better survivability than the Krogan Soldier, assuming you're using and refilling Stim Packs.  So that's the real problem - these Infiltrators that can essentially do everything better than their counterparts.

Because a soldier with the same DPS sustained as a Ghost, but more shields health, damage reduction and better regen is not going to cause a problem? That was the design of a Krogan, to be a tank, if you don't favour the design then that's not an issue of the Inf. balance vs the soldier as a class it's one kit has emphasis on another area. If you want to compare the DPS abilities then compare it to classes which really are designed around that the Turian. Sol. Human Sol. Destroyer etc. You are also comparing the one kit, the Ghost which has the durability that inf. as a class lack. So nerfing the Tac cloak in that aspect solves nothing.

The stims were always an issue no one is arguing that. Hence they got toned down. Not sure why they hit the damage boost as it hurt the Havoc more than the Ghost. It's not as if it was going to reign in the Ghost's damage anyway. 

Modifié par billy the squid, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:46 .

[billy the squid]

Feneckus wrote...

billy the squid wrote...

So Infiltrators have higher sustained DPS than a damage specced AR soldier or the Destroyer, Turians equipped with high level ARs and Marksman, especially with the previous racial buffs?

Definitely true for the GI/SI/TGI/QMI. Don't know about the others.

As to durability well you mentioned 2 classes, yet ignored the Demolishers supply pylon, Geth turret specced for shields, Reave, Energy drain, Justicar's bubble and the Krogan's Barrier. I don't use either class much so I don't comment further. But if they are that over powered then why not mention Soldier, Sentinels and Vanguard. Surely if they were inf. Would outclass them in terms of durability as well.

You're comparing Apples and Oranges.

An Asari Infiltrator has an easier time staying alive than an Asari Adept.
Same thing for Human Infiltrator/Human Engineer

I think point 1 is the issue of the ability to gain 80% damage to powers and weapons, whilst abulsing the mechanics of the cloak system to ignore the power recharge issue. It's a coding issue rather than a class is OP issue. I don't believed that bioware would have intended it to work like that. And short of nerfing the Tac cloak damage into the ground it can't be fixed outside a patch.

I don't think it is really. 

the Fitness specs are racial whilst the Asari Justicar has the reave and bubble powers. I also explained the issues of Tac cloak, detection and the false premise of aggro dumping. When things go wron and Inf has an edge as it can get out of a tight spot easier than another class. But if you are suggesting that it is simply more survaivable by dint of the fact it has Tac cloak. then I'd refer to the previous points and the ability of the Justicar to sustain more damage and have powers that increase durability.

You can't select the Huntress and state it's OP because it survives more than an Adept, yet ignore the Justicar for the above reasons, if you are doing that?

[Kenadian]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Kenadian wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Aekshin wrote...

So, while from a shooter game point of view the infiltrator could be perceived as OP, you are playing now an RPG and this type of games have different rules and classes. Each class has is unique role with strength and weaknesses.

The problem is, Infiltrators have no particular weaknesses. 

They have the best burst DPS AND sustained DPS.

They have better tech powers than engineers.

They arguably have better survivability than Sentinels.

They're better melee fighters than Krogans. Even a Melee Huntress is more effective than a Krogan.

The Huntress has the strongest biotic power in the game.

So not only do they have no weaknesses, other classes have no particular strengths because infiltrators are the best at pretty much everything. The only thing they lack is AOE damage for the most part.

Infiltrators are supposed to have the highest burst DPS, that is their primary role. As far as Sustained DPS goes, Cyonan has already shown that there are several Soldiers that have as high or higher sustained DPS, which is as it should be.

Their powers might hit harder, but the Engineers are better at setting off combos.

With exception of the Ghost, I don't see how their survivabilty is any better than the Sentinels.

Yes, the Huntress's DC is powerful, but it can only be active on one target at a time and can not stack.

Though there is an argument that the GI and a Ghost with a high-level UR AR are both OP, there isn't for the rest of them at all.

So which characters have higher Burst DPS than the Infiltrator?  The problem is right there in the sentence.  There are several Solders that have as high or higher sustained DPS.  EVERY Soldier should have higher sustained weapon DPS than Infiltrators.

No. No they shouldn't. Weapon-focused soldiers should and do.

So Infiltrator should do the highest burst DPS in the game, and they should also do the highest sustained DPS in the game, with the exception of a few Soldiers.  Sounds balanced to me.

Read that again. The "no" is to "all soldiers should do higher weapons damage than infiltrators". That's an asinine thing on the face of it. Half of the soldier class is power-oriented and does damage through intense DoT. And the half that do focus on weapons most certainly beat out TC on its own. The GI/SI and arguably the TGI out DPS these weapons classes, largely due to Proxy Mine.

[OblivionDawn]

I'm not worried about, because it's not going happen since claims against TC are unfounded.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:18 .

[Operator m1]

Feneckus wrote...

Operator m1 wrote...

-Bioware listens to whiners.

Please.

Don't be stupid.

If they did listen, they'd have nerfed Geth a long time ago.

Instead of giving them even more stagger.

They clearly mentioned they take forum feedback into consideration the day before stimpacks were nerfed in the thread discussing the soon-to-be-active changes. What exactly they listen to is up in the air, but the results are a good hint as to what.

Please.

Don't be stupid.

Counterpoint: they nerfed dragoon numbers on gold after enough of a forum outcry, with likely a little more internal testing. Your point is now invalid.

Modifié par Operator m1, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[Noipsaj]

Guy's make it SIMPLE. NOONE wants TC nerfed.... just the guy's that dont know how to play the game!!! Don't NERF it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Major Durza]

I like the Idea Bioware presented with the Huntress: Specialized cloaks, hers applies to her biotics and not weapons. I would like to see more of this, perhaps a patch that makes each infiltrator have its own cloak with its own uses such as the Huntress, more of a reason to pick one over the other.
Perhaps for instance a Human Infiltrator should have the full cloak as a reason to pick it over the SI or GI, which have TC catered to their specialties?

[yurksaa]

Why don't we report people like Fenekus who influence these outcries? He was clearly outscored on Bronze so he came here to express his rookie-level frustrations. I'm waiting for the day someone says Biotic Charge shouldn't replenish barriers.

[AsheraII]

If you want the truth: some people complain about the mere existence of cloak, camouflage and stealth mechanisms in ANY game. They have done so for ages already, including the first Thief game which happens to revolve around Stealth entirely by design and also happened to be a SINGLE PLAYER game.

Now, is Tactical Cloak OP? Definitely not. There are other classes that can get near the damage output that Infiltrator classes can make, but in a more convenient, straight forward, simpler manner. Playing an infiltrator optimally IS harder than playing any other class optimal. You can reach sub-optimal easier than with other classes, but going beyond that and reaching optimal is easier with the other classes again.

Too top those charts with an infiltrator, you'll have to work it a bit more than with another class.
There is one exception to this: the Turian Ghost infiltrator. The Ghost can reach its maximal damage output easier and more conveniently. Even easier than most non-infiltrators. However, the maximal damage output of the Ghost is LOWER than the maximal damage output of the other infiltrators. It's actually even a little bit lower than the maximal damage output of most other classes, but you'll have to play them almost *perfectly* to outperform the ghost (or have a ghost who's simply terrybad), while you can reach the Ghost's optimal performance rather easily.

So yes, it's just a matter of skill, nothing else.
But in the end, the stealth-haters will ALWAYS say Stealth or TC or whatever is OP, even if it didn't give any buffs at all, and even if they were outperformed by an infiltrator who specifically did NOT spec TC, and blindly blame the mechanic.

[randomfoo]

I think it's maybe too late in the life cycle to do what Durza suggested, but in future MP, it seems like powers just need to be unique/tweak able for each kit. It certainly would have solved so many problems and I for the life of me can't figure out why this wasn't the case (this doesn't make managing powers harder since any editing tool could easily abstract instanced powers and it can't be a performance optimization since only four powers ever get loaded in a match and the lookups for appropriate numbers are so small anyway).

Personally, while I think that Feneckus has some good points, I think a further TC cloak is unnecessary. Good players can do very well (better than almost all lesser players using TC kits) with lots of other kits and poor players can use TC classes to get their feet wet.

Sure the Infiltrators are all-around great, but they don't have the pure DR/survivability of the Kroguard or Batguard, and the destructive power of HS w AR on weapons is as good, and the Adepts and Engineers/Sentinels are pretty insane w their AoE explosions. I like being able to pick and don't feel like I'm missing out/having less fun when I choose kits. It's just a matter of: do I want to shoot things, punch things, or explode things. (ok, for dragging horrible pugs across golds, especially for disarms, my duration specced SI is my goto, but there are other options).

Also TC has its own issues anyways - specifically, the broken decloaking at a hint of a bad connection when off-host and the constant cheating the enemy factions do to spot cloaked players.

Anyway, based on the controversy and already small player base, weakening TC just doesn't seem to be in the communtiy's best interest (playing lots of pugs, nerfing TC just isn't going to make anyone have more fun).

[Tallgeese_VII]

Without a good weapon, current infiltrator is really no more than a support class.
With really good weapons, all characters are able to perform as well as infiltrators.
Infiltrator still has huge advantage once it comes down to soloing wave & doing objective, but I don`t think this is anything to complain about in this game.

[randomfoo]

yurksaa wrote...

Why don't we report people like Fenekus who influence these outcries? He was clearly outscored on Bronze so he came here to express his rookie-level frustrations. I'm waiting for the day someone says Biotic Charge shouldn't replenish barriers.

Ha, that's not going to help your argument much. You can do a search and confirm for yourself (plenty of videos and other posts), but Feneckus is an elite player that understands the game mechanics and kits as well as anybody... And he puts forward some good points. That doesn't mean he's right, and I disagree (and laid out my reasons), but to try to say he's some scrub is laughable.

(I've just waded into this thread, but many of the people posting here on both sides of this discussion have played at least hundreds of hours if not more since the beta, so you'll have to do better if you're going to make convince anybody to take you seriously.)

[soundfx]

Its not Player VS Player, so why does the OP want a nerf?

Do you get your credits and extract?

[Tallgeese_VII]

Lathrim wrote...

Tallgeese_VII wrote...

Without a good weapon, current infiltrator is really no more than a support class.
With really good weapons, all characters are able to perform as well as infiltrators.
Infiltrator still has huge advantage once it comes down to soloing wave & doing objective, but I don`t think this is anything to complain about in this game.

Except that's totally not true. Infiltrators make bad weapons look awesome.
Please show me a video of a Krogan Soldier OSOK'ing a Brute w/ full HP on Platinum and then we'll discuss that.
By itself? No. When they have that and superior damage output? Yep.

I find other classes that rely on power to do well have their own advantage over the infiltrators.
Infiltrators are useful at making any weapon do more damage, but it`s not like good weapons do not benefit from being used together with powers other than TC.

[yurksaa]

randomfoo wrote...

yurksaa wrote...

Why don't we report people like Fenekus who influence these outcries? He was clearly outscored on Bronze so he came here to express his rookie-level frustrations. I'm waiting for the day someone says Biotic Charge shouldn't replenish barriers.

Ha, that's not going to help your argument much. You can do a search and confirm for yourself (plenty of videos and other posts), but Feneckus is an elite player that understands the game mechanics and kits as well
as anybody... And he puts forward some good points. That doesn't mean he's right, and I disagree (and laid out my reasons), but to try to say he's some scrub is laughable.



(I've just waded into this thread, but many of the people posting here on both sides of this discussion have played at least hundreds of hours if not more since the beta, so you'll have to do better if you're going to make convince anybody to take you seriously.)

It was a suggestion not an argument but ok. I don't know the people here and I don't care enough to worship certain members of the community.