354 réponses à ce sujet

[Robhuzz]

Laforgus wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

ME6 will no doubt confirm it.

No because ME6 is the Return of Harbinger! 

Hmm that means ME4 is A New Spectre.

But who'll strike back in ME5?

[Finlandiaprkl]

If we don't get post-ending content, then I would say that IT is as canon as every other ending.

[dreamgazer]

Maxster_ wrote...

Yeah, IT exists on a presumption that EAWare capable of genius writing. And this presumption, of course, obviously false.

Eh, there are flawed pieces of writing out there that operate on a similar interpretive basis.

Can't someone think the idea is viable without thinking it's some work of genius being praised by drones?

[Seboist]

Maxster_ wrote...

Yeah, IT exists on a presumption that EAWare capable of genius writing. And this presumption, of course, obviously false.
And this is why any evidence of bad writing is outright dismissed. 
They are just like sect, deluded fanatics, praising EAWare for nothing.

Yep, these ITers believe the same people who killed the protagonist and revived him in the first  five minutes of ME2 as a cheap contrivence to fast forward two years and get him to work with Cerberus are some literary genuises. That kind of nonsense along with turning humans into goo to build a space terminator because of "genetic diversity" would get laughed off by any Sci-fi writer worth their salt.

Modifié par Seboist, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:39 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Finlandiaprkl wrote...

If we don't get post-ending content, then I would say that IT is as canon as every other ending.

fanon =/= canon

Fanon never will be canon.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Finlandiaprkl wrote...

If we don't get post-ending content, then I would say that IT is as canon as every other ending.

fanon =/= canon

Fanon never will be canon.

Does that include your own interpretation of the ending, then?

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

Yep, these ITers believe the same people who killed the protagonist and revived him in the first  five minutes of ME2 as a cheap contrivence to fast forward two years and get him to work with Cerberus are some literary genuises. That kind of nonsense along with turning humans into goo to build a space terminator because of "genetic diversity" would get laughed off by any Sci-fi writer worth their salt.

Or, it's a way of blurring the line of the protagonist's existence as 100% human, which is touched on throughout the series---and it adds an interesting bit of whimsy to the universe's scientific capabilities, similarly to Luke Skywalker's removed hand in another space opera.

Referencing "literary geniuses" over and over is a bit of a strawman, Seb.  You know that.

[Ithurael]

Charlieblacko wrote...

As a believer of IT i'm quite willing to hold my hands up and let it go if its not elaborated on in the final DLC for ME3. Although I will be dissapointed they wasted such potential for an ending.

SEE! This is what we need! If ITers truly believe that IT is bioware's intention then I really do think we all need to set some kind of measurable metric to ping against. You cannot just say "I hope they leave it open and ambiguous forever" as - with how IT works - you are left with no ending.

Honestly, for the sake of sanity I really do think that we should set down some kind of landmark that is:
- Absolute (Shep was dreaming and the ending did not actually happen)
- Definite (no subjective interpretaion or bias can show otherwise)

Basically, my qualification criteria is: After shooting the tube, shep wakes up on earth and completes the war against the reapers. That is really simple when you think about it.

Otherwise everyone will be left up in the air speculating.

Modifié par Ithurael, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Maxster_]

Seboist wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Yeah, IT exists on a presumption that EAWare capable of genius writing. And this presumption, of course, obviously false.
And this is why any evidence of bad writing is outright dismissed. 
They are just like sect, deluded fanatics, praising EAWare for nothing.

Yep, these ITers believe the same people who killed the protagonist and revived him in the first  five minutes of ME2 as a cheap contrivence to fast forward two years and get him to work with Cerberus are some literary genuises. That kind of nonsense along with turning humans into goo to build a space terminator because of "genetic diversity" would get laughed off by any Sci-fi writer worth their salt.

I never thought they'll ever outdone that, but they managed. Right from the intro of ME3, and it only got worse till the end. When they outdone even ME3 with priority:earth and Catalyst's garbage.
They are capable of wonderous achievements. They managed to nullify ME1 and ME2(whatever there were to nullify) not once but twice, and assassinated almost every character in the process. 

[Maxster_]

dreamgazer wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Yep, these ITers believe the same people who killed the protagonist and revived him in the first  five minutes of ME2 as a cheap contrivence to fast forward two years and get him to work with Cerberus are some literary genuises. That kind of nonsense along with turning humans into goo to build a space terminator because of "genetic diversity" would get laughed off by any Sci-fi writer worth their salt.

Or, it's a way of blurring the line of the protagonist's existence as 100% human, which is touched on throughout the series---and it adds an interesting bit of whimsy to the universe's scientific capabilities, similarly to Luke Skywalker's removed hand in another space opera.

Referencing "literary geniuses" over and over is a bit of a strawman, Seb.  You know that.

Sure. Cybernetic prothesis now equals resurrection.
Scifi at it's best, riight 

[Seboist]

dreamgazer wrote...

Or, it's a way of blurring the line of the protagonist's existence as 100% human, which is touched on throughout the series---and it adds an interesting bit of whimsy to the universe's scientific capabilities, similarly to Luke Skywalker's removed hand in another space opera.

Referencing "literary geniuses" over and over is a bit of a strawman, Seb.  You know that.

So, where's Shepard's crisis of mortality over it or the exploration of the impact such a groundbreaking medical procedure has on galactic society in ME2? All I saw were some cheap jokes and remarks like "I got better".

Exploration of such concepts vs using them as cheap plot contrivences is what seperates genuine sci-fi like "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" and "Gattaca" from pulp schlock rubbish like the ME sequels.

[dreamgazer]

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure. Cybernetic prothesis now equals resurrection.
Scifi at it's best, riight 

Equals? Of course not. Similar? In ways, yeah, when considering nerve communication.  

And, again, when did I say it was some pinnacle of science-fiction? You can communicate themes and smart ideas in space opera too, though. End justifying the means, in a blockbuster package.

[macrocarl]

Zardoc wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Well, IT is an interpretation of events that happen in game in ME3. So moving forward if something in game points away from IT and has no room for interpretation or flat out 'splains everything otherwise then yeah. Until then, it's a solid interpretation of events.

IT is based on circumstantial evidence at best. Nothing even remotely solid. 

It's circulmstantial in that it leaves the evidence open for more than one explanation, yes. But it actually uses in game evidence that anyone can see and hear.
Honestly it's really not that hard to see how the conenctions are drawn for the IT folks. I mean, people have taken pictures from ingame and drawn big colored circles around evidence. I'm not sure how much clearer that can be.
IT is more than just circumstantial though. It's an interpretation, meaning that not only does it attempt to take hard information in the game and make sense out of it, it also incorporates the dramatic shift in tone at the end and attempts to reconcile that as well.
Maybe you're thinking of 'circumstantial evidence' in some sort of cop show drama way? Like, it would never stand up in a court of law or something. In that case you are totally correct. But I was thinking of it more along literary lines. If you allow that line of thought IT and a more literal interpretation of events can both be correct.
As for on topic, moving forward if a future ME game has in game evidence that there is no way possible that indoc took place then, like I said before, IT will be debunked. Until then both interpretations are correct.
Hope that makes sense.

[macrocarl]

Finlandiaprkl wrote...

If we don't get post-ending content, then I would say that IT is as canon as every other ending.

Yeah exactly, in fact devs have come straight out and have said that parts of ME3 were written specifically to be open to interpretation. I really really don't get why one side or the other thinks they need to be 100% correct in order to be legit.

[Maxster_]

dreamgazer wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure. Cybernetic prothesis now equals resurrection.
Scifi at it's best, riight 

Equals? Of course not. Similar? In ways, yeah, when considering nerve communication.  

And, again, when did I say it was some pinnacle of science-fiction? You can communicate themes and smart ideas in space opera too, though. End justifying the means, in a blockbuster package.

Sure.
Result of that was utter nonsensical garbage.
Ends justified the means, indeed. 

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

So, where's Shepard's crisis of mortality over it or the exploration of the impact such a groundbreaking medical procedure has on galactic society in ME2? All I saw were some cheap jokes and remarks like "I got better".

How much of this did you want, Seb, and what kind of somber experience were you looking for?  

The crew members question whether Shepard is still really Shepard, usually upon their first meetings; there's a moment where you actively decide whether you want your Shepard considered alive or dead upon reentering the Citadel; the council reevaluates your priorities based on the fact that you've been brought back from presumed death and now align yourself with Cerberus.  Those are off the top of my head, after having not played in quite a while.  The point isn't hammered over and over because that's not Mass Effect's style of narrative (Collectors be collectin', so the Reapers can get to reapin'), but the game reminds you of that uncertainty.

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure.
Result of that was utter nonsensical garbage.
Ends justified the means, indeed. 

Right, right.  I know you're here for the lulz.  Enjoy yourself. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 06 décembre 2012 - 08:08 .

[thebigbad1013]

IT 4-Life!

Seriously, I find it quite hilarious how some people are so bothered by the people who choose to believe in the IT. BioWare has stated repeatedly that they wanted to leave the ending open to interpretation, some people interpret the ending by way of IT. Why do they have to throw in the towel? Nobody will ever be right or wrong about this...ever.

[UrgentArchengel]

As an IT "fan", I'm not, I guess, "indoctrinated" to the cause, so if it ends up being one, and not the other, then so be it. I'm willing to accept face value when it's true, but is everyone willing to accept the opposite?

[Samtheman63]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Personal feelings aside(I think the IT is dumb), I don't think they will throw in the towel. They're the really hardcore ending haters. They will never accept any ending Bioware has put out.

sigh

[Maxster_]

dreamgazer wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure.
Result of that was utter nonsensical garbage.
Ends justified the means, indeed. 

Right, right.  I know you're here for the lulz.  Enjoy yourself. 

My lulz is is irrelevant to your point being debunked, you know.
Universe scientific capabilities, is equals space magic for you. No surpise there, accepting that garbage, which have no place even in fantasy, as genius writing is equals accepting other garbage, like Crucible, Cerberus Empire, retcons, nullification of prequels, etc.
And that just supports my statement about ITers, and IT in general. 

[dreamgazer]

Maxster_ wrote...

My lulz is is irrelevant to your point being debunked, you know.
Universe scientific capabilities, is equals space magic for you. No surpise there, accepting that garbage, which have no place even in fantasy, as genius writing is equals accepting other garbage, like Crucible, Cerberus Empire, retcons, nullification of prequels, etc.

Uh-huh.  Having said none of those things, I'll bow out of the conversation---except to add that the idea of Shepard being recreated by far-out yet somewhat-detailed fantastical medicine isn't the same as "space magic", and it contains a few things to chew on in terms of the hero's place as an avatar of organic life. 

Continue, though. 

[Han Shot First]

I think the above image pretty much sums it up. They believe what they want to believe, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 décembre 2012 - 08:35 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Han Shot First wrote...
I think the above image pretty much sums it up. They believe what they want to believe, despite all evidence to the contrary.

What evidence is that, exactly?  Your own opinion? 

[Maxster_]

dreamgazer wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

My lulz is is irrelevant to your point being debunked, you know.
Universe scientific capabilities, is equals space magic for you. No surpise there, accepting that garbage, which have no place even in fantasy, as genius writing is equals accepting other garbage, like Crucible, Cerberus Empire, retcons, nullification of prequels, etc.

Uh-huh.  Having said none of those things, I'll bow out of the conversation---except to add that the idea of Shepard being recreated by far-out yet somewhat-detailed fantastical medicine isn't the same as "space magic", and it contains a few things to chew on in terms of the hero's place as an avatar of organic life. 

Continue, though. 

Sure, brain(not body) survivied atmospheric entry.
Really.
Except brain dies within a minutes without oxygen. But who cares.
And then somehow dead body was remade.
After that, facility just destroyed for some retarded reason, leaving no trace of technology of resurrection.
Plausible. Scifi.  


No, you don't said about accepting garbage writing... You just implied.

Equals? Of course not. Similar? In ways, yeah, when considering nerve communication.  

And, again, when did I say it was some pinnacle of science-fiction? You can communicate themes and smart ideas in space opera too, though. End justifying the means, in a blockbuster package.

So, you already implied that it was great writing. Which is, of course, not. Also implied, that other garbage from ME3 is also great writing.
And as i said, any evidence of bad writing is outright dismissed by ITers, because existence of bad writing in ME1 sequels destroys any possibility of IT. 

[Han Shot First]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
I think the above image pretty much sums it up. They believe what they want to believe, despite all evidence to the contrary.

What evidence is that, exactly?  Your own opinion? 

Bioware stating that they are done with the endings. For IT to be true, there needs to be DLC content that confirms it as such. That DLC isn't happening.

Finally, the Refuse ending firmly debunked indoctrination theory. If the end sequence was just a massive mind game with Shepard battling indoctrination, refusing to play along with the Catalyst should be a victory over indoctrination. Instead it ends with the destruction of every space faring civilization and the annihilation of every space faring species, including humanity.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 décembre 2012 - 09:00 .