354 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
The IT doesn't make any sense. Here is why:

..........yeah, that one drew tumbleweeds and crickets the first time you posted it. It doesn't get any funnier (or any more accurate, for that matter) with age.

The truth hurts doesn't it?


Well, at least from my perspective it's damn hilarious.

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Oh yeah, sure, why don't you go nitpicking on someones grammar instead of writing a counter argument?

Cut me some slack, English isn't my first or primary language. But thanks for the correction though. I'll edit my original post.

Hey, I'm helping you out.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

And your post was a critical farce anyway, so why expect a serious counterpoint?

[Seboist]

Maxster_ wrote...

You know, resurrection is bad plot device even for fantasy. Well, at least good written fantasy, for that matter. 

Yeah, even by fantasy standards the writing in this series is pretty damn bad. ME3 with it's derpy crucible plot makes your average Zelda game look like a literary masterpiece. In those games Link actually knows what the triforce actually is and what it does.

I'd rather have Link in charge of saving the galaxy than this idiot..

Modifié par Seboist, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[The Heretic of Time]

What bothers me the most about IT is that it's apologetic for hack-writing.

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
The truth hurts doesn't it?

Well, at least from my perspective it's damn hilarious.

Truth?  LOL - I didn't see any truth in your post, just the usual bad-writing opinion in the form of a badly-written satire.

Ha - actually, that IS pretty hilarious, come to think of it....

[Seboist]

dreamgazer wrote...

Someday they'll realize that not taking the bait is the best way to avoid these conversations.

They sure won't learn that from you.

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
The truth hurts doesn't it?

Well, at least from my perspective it's damn hilarious.

Truth?  LOL - I didn't see any truth in your post, just the usual bad-writing opinion in the form of a badly-written satire.

Ha - actually, that IS pretty hilarious, come to think of it....

Yes, truth. 

And there you go again with the "bad-writing is just an opinion" meme. I tell you what, if ME3 isn't horribly written, than certainly you can answer my question that I asked earlier:

You claim BioWare are genius writers. So that means you have no issues with all the other contradictions of lore/continuity that the IT doesn't  explain, such as: "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity, Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays, etc.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 décembre 2012 - 10:59 .

[dreamgazer]

Seboist wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Someday they'll realize that not taking the bait is the best way to avoid these conversations.

They sure won't learn that from you.

Meh, I was in the mood.

Plus, when you start yammering on about more serious issues like mental health and suicide, it's worth taking the bait.

[archangel1996]

Yeah, joke
For a game, thinking that there is people like this
Should i be ammired about you taking here the news about that kid? Using the dead of a kid to prove a point, you are really a great person

Modifié par archangel1996, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:01 .

[pmac_tk421]

Maxster_ wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Personal feelings aside(I think the IT is dumb), I don't think they will throw in the towel. They're the really hardcore ending haters. They will never accept any ending Bioware has put out.

Except ITers are not ending haters, they are pro-enders. They think that ME3 have most genius ending of a decade.
Look into their thread, if you don't believe me.
Real ME3 haters already left, or staying for lulz, like me

I am pretty sure that I can name a few IT'ers that - without IT or no IT reveal - would go the way of Clevernoob.

Which way is that?
Well, judging from context, maybe my generalization was too broad, but i haven't seen any ITers who hate ending, and not praising it as genius writing.
Maybe you'll show me someone?

The point I was trying to make is that a lot of IT converts(not all, but some) found solace in it. What I'm refering to them hating is an ITless ending. I know that some saw it as writing on the wall and never had any reason to hate since they thought it was Bioware's intention, but many fled to it to escape what they thought was an ending they could not stand. Its a classic example of believing what you want to believe.

[hukbum]

Maxster_ wrote...
First, garbage writing of ME3 is unrelated to a bad business plan. They changed their target audience and they succeeded. And even if they'd not - game development is not like factory, sometimes there are misses even with right business strategy(meaning execution of a plan was bad).

Trying to include a new audience is no bad practice but a complicated one. In this case it might have failed, or the practice was "make more quick money with one game and keep the old audience at bay with whatever follows.".
I won't go that far and say they wanted a completly new audience and get rid of the old one (which is some kind of save money).
I don't say it was executed well, and I don't even know if that was their plan. But neither do you (except you have insight I don't have).

Maxster_ wrote...
Second, IT reveal being a bad business strategy is unrelated to my critique of ME3's garbage writing.

That was my point ... well somehow. Please keep in mind that I'm translating here, before you say something makes no sense. If you think something makes no sense just ask, I'll try to clarify.

Maxster_ wrote...
It makes absolutely no sense to release game without a "true" ending, all to release "true" ending DLC in a year, when no one who didn't liked "false" ending, will ever care about that game and company.

Why not? The casual gamer is gone anyway, only fans (of some sort) will buy DLC for a singleplayer game. I don't say that I like a practice like that, but it works, as you've said yourself. Maybe not the way they planed but it works.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I can't help but think of the ITers as being like the Prophet of Truth near the end of Halo 3. "In a moment Bioware will release the DLC, and all who believe shall have their perfect ending!"

[The Heretic of Time]

archangel1996 wrote...

Yeah, joke
For a game, thinking that there is people like this
Should i be ammired about you taking here the news about that kid? Using the dead of a kid to prove a point, you are really a great person

What is your problem? Seboist was simply stating the truth: there really are people who commit suicide over trivial matters such as video-games or anime series. Seboist simply states that he wouldn't be suprised if some ITers (he didn't name any specific ITers) would be capable of foinh something similar.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:08 .

[Maxster_]

hukbum wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
First, garbage writing of ME3 is unrelated to a bad business plan. They changed their target audience and they succeeded. And even if they'd not - game development is not like factory, sometimes there are misses even with right business strategy(meaning execution of a plan was bad).

Trying to include a new audience is no bad practice but a complicated one. In this case it might have failed, or the practice was "make more quick money with one game and keep the old audience at bay with whatever follows.".
I won't go that far and say they wanted a completly new audience and get rid of the old one (which is some kind of save money).
I don't say it was executed well, and I don't even know if that was their plan. But neither do you (except you have insight I don't have).

I'm judging from their reaction to ending outrage(arrogance, insults, bans), ME3 sales, DLC success, and horrible writing of ME3 in general.
There is enough indirect evidence to support my point, and you have none. So, oour positions in this debate are not equal 

Maxster_ wrote...
Second, IT reveal being a bad business strategy is unrelated to my critique of ME3's garbage writing.

That was my point ... well somehow. Please keep in mind that I'm translating here, before you say something makes no sense. If you think something makes no sense just ask, I'll try to clarify.

Ok.

Maxster_ wrote...
It makes absolutely no sense to release game without a "true" ending, all to release "true" ending DLC in a year, when no one who didn't liked "false" ending, will ever care about that game and company.

Why not? The casual gamer is gone anyway, only fans (of some sort) will buy DLC for a singleplayer game. I don't say that I like a practice like that, but it works, as you've said yourself. Maybe not the way they planed but it works.

Because there is no need to.
They have DLC plan, they have plans for ME4 - and it is clear they are not planning to bring back old fanbase. Also, if they release "true" ending - that means that game was falsely advertised. Implications.

[jijeebo]

People still genuinely believe that an IT DLC is coming out?

... Sweet baby Jesus.

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
And there you go again with the "bad-writing is just an opinion" meme. I tell you what, if ME3 isn't horribly written, than certainly you can answer my question that I asked earlier:

You claim BioWare are genius writers. So that means you have no issues with all the other contradictions of lore/continuity that the IT doesn't  explain, such as: "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity, Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays, etc.

I'm sure there's a question in there somewhere, I'm just not seeing it.

And I'M not claiming anything, other than the fact that I enjoyed the sotory and continue to enjoy it.  YOU'RE the one claiming bad writing, so (as the literalists keep telling me) the burden of proof lies on you.  All you've given me so far is a series of individual (and to be honest, rather pathetic) nitpicks which do not reflect in any way on the story as a whole.

Episodic of fiction develops over time, and often moves away from it's original themes, ideas and premises.  This is true with even the most highly regarded storytellers, in any media and any genre.  Show me any work of popular fiction that doesn't have internal inconsistencies and continuity errors.

Better still, show me a work of fiction of your own which compares more favourably.  You have the right to criticism, of course.  But unless you prove you can do better, I have the right to laugh your opinions off as the petty-mindedness of a keyboard warrior.  If you can't do that, show me a consensus of critical opinion that matches and agrees with your own.

I'll be waiting.

[hukbum]

Maxster_ wrote...
I'm judging from their reaction to ending outrage(arrogance, insults, bans), ME3 sales, DLC success, and horrible writing of ME3 in general.
There is enough indirect evidence to support my point, and you have none. So, oour positions in this debate are not equal 

Ok, yes, you're right. They have a crappy marketing department, that's for sure.

Maxster_ wrote...
They have DLC plan, they have plans for ME4 - and it is clear they are not planning to bring back old fanbase. Also, if they release "true" ending - that means that game was falsely advertised. Implications.

Actually there was an article about that. Something about back to the roots or something.
About "true" ending - from a marketing (please see read statement about that again ^^) point of view the game wasn't falsely advertised. People who bought the game got an ending. Not what thought it would be but, yeah, the game ends somehow.

Again, I'm not saying I like what they did there, but the original plan could have been completly diffrent. I don't know that, you don't know that. I'm not defending them, but I keep in mind that I might be wrong.
It's up to them if I buy the next game at full price or give it a try when it's arround 7,95Eur.

But to say they can't change thier plans? Don't know, sounds like a bad business strategy to me

IT, Puzzle, whatever they come up with, it has to be good. And I think they know it (or they're just completly nuts and my theory that the catalyst was created by an apex moron will get some literal backup).

Modifié par hukbum, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:45 .

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
And there you go again with the "bad-writing is just an opinion" meme. I tell you what, if ME3 isn't horribly written, than certainly you can answer my question that I asked earlier:

You claim BioWare are genius writers. So that means you have no issues with all the other contradictions of lore/continuity that the IT doesn't  explain, such as: "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity, Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays, etc.

I'm sure there's a question in there somewhere, I'm just not seeing it.

And I'M not claiming anything, other than the fact that I enjoyed the sotory and continue to enjoy it.  YOU'RE the one claiming bad writing, so (as the literalists keep telling me) the burden of proof lies on you.  All you've given me so far is a series of individual (and to be honest, rather pathetic) nitpicks which do not reflect in any way on the story as a whole.

Episodic of fiction develops over time, and often moves away from it's original themes, ideas and premises.  This is true with even the most highly regarded storytellers, in any media and any genre.  Show me any work of popular fiction that doesn't have internal inconsistencies and continuity errors.

Better still, show me a work of fiction of your own which compares more favourably.  You have the right to criticism, of course.  But unless you prove you can do better, I have the right to laugh your opinions off as the petty-mindedness of a keyboard warrior.  If you can't do that, show me a consensus of critical opinion that matches and agrees with your own.

I'll be waiting.

If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

[dreamgazer]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

And I'M not claiming anything, other than the fact that I enjoyed the sotory and continue to enjoy it.  YOU'RE the one claiming bad writing, so (as the literalists keep telling me) the burden of proof lies on you.  All you've given me so far is a series of individual (and to be honest, rather pathetic) nitpicks which do not reflect in any way on the story as a whole.

The way the Crucible's plans were discovered and the entire character of Kai Leng help to support his argument.

ME3 has its writing issues, even outside the ending.

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

So should I take it you have no way of backing up your argument as anything other than personal opinion then? Fair enough.

dreamgazer wrote...
The way the Crucible's plans were discovered and the entire character of Kai Leng help to support his argument.

ME3 has its writing issues, even outside the ending.

Kai Leng, I'll grant you.  There is nothing redeemable about Leng's character.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:38 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

So should I take it you have no way of backing up your argument as anything other than personal opinion then? Fair enough.

Since his argument is that Bio's writing is bad, does he need anything besides personal opinion? If he does, what would that be?

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

So should I take it you have no way of backing up your argument as anything other than personal opinion then? Fair enough.

What do you want me to say? Seriously, what you're asking is similar to asking someone to back up the statement that the sky is blue. 

I already gave you examples of bad writing in in Mass Effect 3. What more do you want?

[dreamgazer]

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

So should I take it you have no way of backing up your argument as anything other than personal opinion then? Fair enough.

Since his argument is that Bio's writing is bad, does he need anything besides personal opinion? If he does, what would that be?

Nothing, really.  That kind of opinion can only be backed up by another list of opinions, perhaps a half-assed link to an academic writing website that chronicles the "Hero's Journey".

It's a shame, though that Hanar followed his statement with a proclamation that everything said in response will be nothing but the words of an apologist.  Well, gee, why even make the effort?

[TheProtheans]

ReconTeam wrote...

I can't help but think of the ITers as being like the Prophet of Truth near the end of Halo 3. "In a moment Bioware will release the DLC, and all who believe shall have their perfect ending!"

That made me laugh.

[The Heretic of Time]

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
If you think that "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity and Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays among other things are just nitpicks, than I give up. You truly are apologetic for BioWares hack-writing.

So should I take it you have no way of backing up your argument as anything other than personal opinion then? Fair enough.

Since his argument is that Bio's writing is bad, does he need anything besides personal opinion? If he does, what would that be?

Nothing, really.  That kind of opinion can only be backed up by another list of opinions, perhaps a half-assed link to an academic writing website that chronicles the "Hero's Journey".

It's a shame, though that Hanar followed his statement with a proclamation that everything said in response will be nothing but the words of an apologist.  Well, gee, why even make the effort?

Everyone who simply handwaves away that hack-writing as "it's not hack-writing" is an apologist. Everyone who actually tries to explain why  it isn't hack-writing in their opinion might be an apologist, but isn't necessarily.

So far I haven't seen any ITer making an attempt at adressing the points I made, they simply deny the hack-writing and keep telling themselves that BioWare are the kings of video-game writing.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:52 .