354 réponses à ce sujet

[cavs25]

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

[The Heretic of Time]

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...
The way the Crucible's plans were discovered and the entire character of Kai Leng help to support his argument.
ME3 has its writing issues, even outside the ending.

Kai Leng, I'll grant you.  There is nothing redeemable about Leng's character.

There is one redeeming quality about Kai Leng and that is his voice actor Troy Baker. Hate all you want on the character, but don't hate on the voice.

Edit: This thread makes me sad.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So far I haven't seen any ITer making an attempt at adressing the points I made, they simply deny the hack-writing and keep telling themselves that BioWare are the kings of video-game writing.

A) Do you ever actually present yourself in a manner that'd make someone want to respond to you? You think they're crazy jagoffs, and you're not shy in expressing as such.

Are they really going around saying they're the "kings of video-game writing"? I've seen praise, but I haven't seen proclamations of pure perfection and utter dominance. Creating an opinion that's so damn binary is one of the big issues around here: it's hack writing, and those who say otherwise simply think they're faultless geniuses and have no experience with other writing; it's brilliant writing, and those who think otherwise are blind fools. What's wrong with being somewhere in the middle---and, more importantly, what's wrong with being an abstract thinker and accepting some of the writing's faults?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[TheProtheans]

I dunno some of them called it fantastic, a very strong word.

[IronSabbath88]

dreamgazer wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So far I haven't seen any ITer making an attempt at adressing the points I made, they simply deny the hack-writing and keep telling themselves that BioWare are the kings of video-game writing.

A) Do you ever actually present yourself in a manner that'd make someone want to respond to you? You think they're crazy jagoffs, and you're not shy in expressing as such.

Are they really going around saying they're the "kings of video-game writing"? I've seen praise, but I haven't seen proclamations of pure perfection and utter dominance. Creating an opinion that's so damn binary is one of the big issues around here: it's hack writing, and those who say otherwise simply think they're faultless geniuses and have no experience with other writing; it's brilliant writing, and those who think otherwise are blind fools. What's wrong with being somewhere in the middle---and, more importantly, what's wrong with being an abstract thinker and accepting some of the writing's faults?

Bingo.

[cavs25]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

You are confused
I wasn't even talking about you

You are trying to argue your oppinion and most of the time you do it without letting it get out of hand
Plus I agree with plenty of things you say.
I don't think Bioware has amazing writers
I give the fans all the credit for coming up with something like the IT.  For making something like that out of the mess that the ending was/is.  I wished that Bioware implemented it because I just want an ending that makes sense, but do I think they will implement it? Nope
Hope doesn't hurt though

Modifié par cavs25, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:19 .

[archangel1996]

TheProtheans wrote...

I dunno some of them called it fantastic, a very strong word.

Gentlemen, report in the agenda this
 Who sayes fantastic is an heretic, who does not say fantastic is a God fearing...i am both

Anyway, my thought, the IT now is just a theory, i believe enough in it to play ME1 and 2 one more time, i don't believe enough in it to pay for Omega and Leviathan(now)
Bottom line:
If IT si proven to be right, BW will be the better team of FANTASTIC  writers i have ever ever seen
If IT is proven to be wrong BW will be the greatest bunch of bad writers i have ever ever seen

Modifié par archangel1996, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:16 .

[The Heretic of Time]

dreamgazer wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

So far I haven't seen any ITer making an attempt at adressing the points I made, they simply deny the hack-writing and keep telling themselves that BioWare are the kings of video-game writing.

A) Do you ever actually present yourself in a manner that'd make someone want to respond to you? You think they're crazy jagoffs, and you're not shy in expressing as such.

My opinion on the ITers themselves should not stand in the way of the topic at hand. I know damn well what the ITers think about me and "literalists" in general, but do I care? No. But I'm still willing to respond to them if they make a valid argument or make an actual attempt at adressing my points.
 
Has it perhaps ever occured to you that I actually write normal and usually friendly or at least neutral replies to people who actually make intelligent posts? If you get a smart-ass remark, a smug or a dismissive response from me, you probably deserve it. It's not as if the ITers aren't guilty of this behavior. They're actually the folks who usually start with it. Dorkaithain for example, who always seems to miss the point (on purpse) and tries to derail the discussion with meaningless "lol troll" posts.

Are they really going around saying they're the "kings of video-game writing"? I've seen praise, but I haven't seen proclamations of pure perfection and utter dominance.

Now you're just nitpicking again. You know damn well what I meant. How often do we see the words "BioWare", "genius" and "writing" being used in the same sentence  by ITers? Quite often. Some of them really do claim that Mass Effect +  the IT is the pinnacle of video-game writing and you know it.

 

What's wrong with being somewhere in the middle---and, more importantly, what's wrong with being an abstract thinker and accepting some of the writing's faults?

Are these ITers somewhere in the middle? Are these ITers abstract thinkers who accept some of the writing in Mass Effect is just bad?

[The Heretic of Time]

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

You are confused
I wasn't even talking about you

I'm not confused. You are. You were talking about me.


"When will the people who don't believe in the IT..."

^
That's me. I'm one of those people.

[hukbum]

You gotta love stereotyped thinking ...
Some = all, yeah, right ...

[ElSuperGecko]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

What do you want me to say? Seriously, what you're asking is similar to asking someone to back up the statement that the sky is blue.

The majority opinion would say the sky is blue (unless of course you live in Manchester, where it's perpetually grey). What's the majority opinion on the Mass Effect series? And does it match your own?

I already gave you examples of bad writing in in Mass Effect 3. What more do you want?

"Ah yes, Reapers" - false sense of security. Geth driven off. No hard evidence that the Reaper invasion was anything other than a Geth assault. Also: standard plot device - Shepard needs to continue their campaign.

"Derperus Sith Empire" - we encounter Cerberus in ME1, and are told by a deliberately evasive Anderson that they are a black ops group gone rogue - however, even then this does not tie in with the connections and resources they have (they have multiple bases in multiple systems, are researching into alien intelligences and mind control, and are able to abduct an Alliance Admiral). In ME2, we learn they are a much larger, more powerful and extremely well-funded organisation. The progressively large role they take isn't surprising, and they also serve as a plot device - being the traitors from within. Could it have been done better? Yes, of course, removing Leng would have been a great start, but it's hardly bad writing.

"Prothean Demise" nothing was retconned. We were given exposition and context by Javik. The Reapers still took the Citadel and wiped out the Prothean Empire's seat of government in one fell swoop. The Protheans were a united empire, however - united by force - and the resistance was still heavy (we fought them system by system, world by world). You may not personally like the way the Prothean Empire's fall was elaborated upon, but that's opinion, not bad writing.

"The Reapers not shutting down the Citadel Relays" the Citadel was originally used as a trap to wipe out the central government - and the heaviest resistance - in one fell swoop. The Reapers know the galaxy is uniting against them. They also know the Citadel is the key to using the Crucible. They are simply using it as a trap once more, but in a different manner. They use it to luring our fleets to Earth, where their forces are gathered. We cannot win this conventionally, remember? Look at the "refuse" scenario - the trap has worked. The Reapers have won. Shutting down the Relays is not bad writing - simply proof of the Reapers arrogance and confidence in their own ability.

See? All opinion. Your nitpicking doesn't prove "bad writing" any more than my own opinions prove Bioware are genius writers. But, as stated earlier, I'm not claiming any such thing, so the burden of proof isn't on me. You have no irrefutable proof of bad writing, and no general consensus to that effect. What do ya got, other than personal opinion?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[cavs25]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

You are confused
I wasn't even talking about you

I'm not confused. You are. You were talking about me.


"When will the people who don't believe in the IT..."

^
That's me. I'm one of those people.

"stop harassing those who do"
I don't beleive you are one of those people
I even underline the key word in the sentece just so there isn't a misunderstanding
Ease off the attitude
You are on the internet, and trying to act smug or hard just makes you look silly.  

[archangel1996]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

My opinion on the ITers themselves should not stand in the way of the topic at hand. I know damn well what the ITers think about me and "literalists" in general, but do I care? No. But I'm still willing to respond to them if they make a valid argument or make an actual attempt at adressing my points.
 

My friend, if it makes you feel any better, i don't think no one of us heretics gives a **** about you At least i don't

[The Heretic of Time]

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

You are confused
I wasn't even talking about you

I'm not confused. You are. You were talking about me.


"When will the people who don't believe in the IT..."

^
That's me. I'm one of those people.

"stop harassing those who do"
I don't beleive you are one of those people
I even underline the key word in the sentece just so there isn't a misunderstanding
Ease off the attitude
You are on the internet, and trying to act smug or hard just makes you look silly.  

You should have worded your post better.


Still, you're begging the question. How can one throw in the towel if one isn't even in the ring fighting?

[Angmir]

In short

NEVA

[IronSabbath88]

I guess I can be labelled an IT'er (even though I'm just aiming for an ending that makes sense now more than anything) and I personally think you can think whatever you please. Such is the beauty of the human mind and all.

Regardless, I think it's kind of silly to take the endings literally if you know anything of the context of the ME universe.. synthesis is just downright stupid on so many levels with what the first and second game have shown. So yeah, I believe that not everything is as it seems.

Indoctrination? Maybe not. Don't care either way. Just want this crap to make sense, because right now, it doesn't.

[cavs25]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

When will the people who don't believe in the IT throw in the towel and stop harassing those who do? I think that is a better question

Throw in the towel for what? I'm not even in the ring!

You are confused
I wasn't even talking about you

I'm not confused. You are. You were talking about me.


"When will the people who don't believe in the IT..."

^
That's me. I'm one of those people.

"stop harassing those who do"
I don't beleive you are one of those people
I even underline the key word in the sentece just so there isn't a misunderstanding
Ease off the attitude
You are on the internet, and trying to act smug or hard just makes you look silly.  

You should have worded your post better.


Still, you're begging the question. How can one throw in the towel if one isn't even in the ring fighting?

Nevermind bro
proceed 
I don't really give a **** about you 
you are one of those people who will end alone in life because they are never wrong and its always the other person's fault lol 

[The Heretic of Time]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

The majority opinion would say the sky is blue (unless of course you live in Manchester, where it's perpetually grey). What's the majority opinion on the Mass Effect series?

That ME3 as a whole, or at the very least some elements of ME3, such as the Crucible, the Reapers and the Starkid, are badly written.

And does it match your own?

Yes.

"Ah yes, Reapers" - false sense of security. Geth driven off. No hard evidence that the Reaper invasion was anything other than a Geth assault. Also: standard plot device - Shepard needs to continue their campaign.

The point, you missed it.

In ME1 the Council acknowledges the reapers existence (and how could they not acknowledge this fact after seeing Sovereign? That thing certainly isn't a geth ship!). In ME2 this got completely retconned with "ah yes reapers".

Like I said: Inconsistent writing.

"Derperus Sith Empire" - we encounter Cerberus in ME1, and are told by a deliberately evasive Anderson that they are a black ops group gone rogue - however, even then this does not tie in with the connections and resources they have (they have multiple bases in multiple systems, are researching into alien intelligences and mind control, and are able to abduct an Alliance Admiral). In ME2, we learn they are a much larger, more powerful and extremely well-funded organisation. The progressively large role they take isn't surprising, and they also serve as a plot device - being the traitors from within. Could it have been done better? Yes, of course, removing Leng would have been a great start, but it's hardly bad writing.

Escuse me, but ME2 never stated that Cerberus was large by any means.  The size of the Derperus Sith Empire is not even the only issue. The fact that they got changed from a sinister shadow organisation to an army of Saturday-morning cartoon villains is also something I take issue with.

"Prothean Demise" nothing was retconned. We were given exposition and context by Javik. The Reapers still took the Citadel and wiped out the Prothean Empire's seat of government in one fell swoop. The Protheans were a united empire, however - united by force - and the resistance was still heavy (we fought them system by system, world by world). You may not personally like the way the Prothean Empire's fall was elaborated upon, but that's opinion, not bad writing.

This is most certainly a retcon. Javik states that the Prothean empire had fallen because they lacked diversity, while in reality they would have fallen anyway because the Citadel trap was at that point foolproof and assured the reaper victory.

So either Javik is a ****** who doesn't want to admit his empire would have lost anyway, or it's a big fat retcon. Either way, it's bad writing in my opinion.

"The Reapers not shutting down the Citadel Relays" the Citadel was originally used as a trap to wipe out the central government - and the heaviest resistance - in one fell swoop. The Reapers know the galaxy is uniting against them. They also know the Citadel is the key to using the Crucible. They are simply using it as a trap once more, but in a different manner. They use it to luring our fleets to Earth, where their forces are gathered. We cannot win this conventionally, remember? Look at the "refuse" scenario - the trap has worked. The Reapers have won. Shutting down the Relays is not bad writing - simply proof of the Reapers arrogance and confidence in their own ability.

They know the galaxy is uniting against them, so instead preventing that from happening by capturing the Citadel and shutting down the relays right away they're just going to take a gamble by facing an united galaxy head-on, something they have never done before? Yeaaaaaaaaaaah makes total sense...

Didn't the reapers shut down the relays in the previous cycle to PREVENT THEM FROM UNITING? Yeah, go figure.

[The Heretic of Time]

cavs25 wrote...

Nevermind bro
proceed 
I don't really give a **** about you 
you are one of those people who will end alone in life because they are never wrong and its always the other person's fault lol 

Wow, you know me so well. I'm impressed. How did you know I'm lonely and without any friends? You must be a genius or something, capable of mind reading perhaps. 

[RinuCZ]

Why do you make a thread about a certain group of fans? Is there a point to it except making fun of them? If it's how they want to interpret it, so be it. This is no different from "complaining about complains" threads.

[The Heretic of Time]

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out? 

Ah yes, "indoctrination", the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for said character.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[IronSabbath88]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out.

"Ah yes, indoctrination, the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for that character."

I saw a theory recently that I latched onto and truly believe has some merit.

At the end of ME2, Harbinger says "We will find another way" after the Collectors are defeated. My thinking is that the "other way" is Cerberus to help them build a human reaper. As much as you don't like indoctrination, we know that TIM had contact with a reaper artifact on Shanxi and has reaper implants so is indoctrinating him totally impossible? Not at all.

So why are Cerberus fighting Shepard? Because they're the new Collectors. They wanted Omega for a reason, and that reason has got to be the vast amount of eezo being used to create this new human reaper larvae (and we know for a fact that there's human remains scattered about the Citadel)

This would also explain why it's been moved to Earth. Easier access to more humans and Shepard will be the key to completing the reaper conciousness. 

That's my take on it anyway. See it as you will, but it makes more sense than just "oh, they were indoctrinated".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out? 

Ah yes, "indoctrination", the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for said character.

Your question answered itself. Control and Destroy are the opposite ends of the "What to do with the Reapers" Spectrum, so t would make sense to have people with opposite goals fight each other. Why would Cerberus help shepard destroy Reapers or Council help Cerberus control them?

[The Heretic of Time]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out.

"Ah yes, indoctrination, the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for that character."

I saw a theory recently that I latched onto and truly believe has some merit.

At the end of ME2, Harbinger says "We will find another way" after the Collectors are defeated. My thinking is that the "other way" is Cerberus to help them build a human reaper. As much as you don't like indoctrination, we know that TIM had contact with a reaper artifact on Shanxi and has reaper implants so is indoctrinating him totally impossible? Not at all.

So why are Cerberus fighting Shepard? Because they're the new Collectors. They wanted Omega for a reason, and that reason has got to be the vast amount of eezo being used to create this new human reaper larvae (and we know for a fact that there's human remains scattered about the Citadel)

This would also explain why it's been moved to Earth. Easier access to more humans and Shepard will be the key to completing the reaper conciousness. 

That's my take on it anyway. See it as you will, but it makes more sense than just "oh, they were indoctrinated".

While I don't think your theory for Cerberus to become antagonists is a particularily good theory, at least you do try to come up with a reason why Cerberus is the way it is in ME3, unlike BioWare, who doesn't bother to explain this at all. Omega was a missed oppertunity. I hoped to find out more about Cerberus and their motives in this DLC. Instead all we got is lots of pew-pew and nothing more. I truly have lost my faith in BioWares capability of writing a decent- and more importantly, a complete story.