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Will IT believers throw in the towel on the final DLC or when ME4 is released?


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#351
The Heretic of Time

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out? 

Ah yes, "indoctrination", the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for said character.

Your question answered itself. Control and Destroy are the opposite ends of the "What to do with the Reapers" Spectrum, so t would make sense to have people with opposite goals fight each other. Why would Cerberus help shepard destroy Reapers or Council help Cerberus control them?


Destroy and Control aren't on the opposite ends of the spectrum. :pinched: They're simply 2 different means to the same end: stopping the reapers.

The biggest concern for both parties, the Alliance and Cerberus is stopping the reapers no matter what the cost. This actually makes them allies for the time being. Seek the enemy of your enemy and you find a friend. Makes sense, doesn't it? TIM understood this in ME2, but it seems he has forgotten in ME3. Inconsistent writing for the win! :wizard:

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:05 .


#352
Hanako Ikezawa

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Another something to think about:


Why does Cerberus even fight Shepard in ME3? Why waste time on him? Shouldn't they help Shepard, or at the very least ignore him? Their goals are aligned after all, they both want to stop the reapers, the only difference is that The Illusive Man wants to control the reapers, while Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers (or at least that's what TIM assumes).

So, why is Cerberus the enemy again in ME3? Is it because of the indoctrination cop-out? 

Ah yes, "indoctrination", the cop-out plot-device being used as an excuse whenever BioWare wants to set someone up against Shepard without bothering to write an actual compelling motivation for said character.

Your question answered itself. Control and Destroy are the opposite ends of the "What to do with the Reapers" Spectrum, so t would make sense to have people with opposite goals fight each other. Why would Cerberus help shepard destroy Reapers or Council help Cerberus control them?


Destroy and Control aren't on the opposite end of the spectrum. :pinched: They're simply 2 different means to the same end: stopping the reapers.

The biggest concern for both parties, the Alliance and Cerberus is stopping the reapers no matter what the cost. This actually makes them allies. Seek the enemy for your enemy and you find a friend. Makes sense, doesn't it? TIM understood this in ME2, but it seems he has forgotten in ME3. Inconsistent writing for the win! :wizard:

I get where you are coming from, but they are opposite on how to stop the Reapers. And while Cerberus saw the potential benefits of Shepard, they were never allied with the Alliance so by the time of ME3 they perhaps saw no point in working with those who wouldn't work with them. This turned them into enemies of each other because both sides saw the other as too radical, which is shown in mE3. It would be like building something while the other person is taking it apart at the same time, it wouldn't make sense to be with that person.

#353
ElSuperGecko

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Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Yes.


Then you should have no problem proving it.  Go rright ahead.

The point, you missed it.

In ME1 the Council acknowledges the reapers existence (and how could they not acknowledge this fact after seeing Sovereign? That thing certainly isn't a geth ship!). In ME2 this got completely retconned with "ah yes reapers". Like I said: Inconsistent writing.


Just like you missed mine.  One line at the end of ME1 after having their lives saved vs the Council's stance for the rest of the game in it's entirety.  Once the debris has cleared and Geth attack is a memory, suddenly gratitude takes a backseat and politics take over.  And again, as you appeared to miss the other point as well - plot device.  Shepard needs to continue fighting the war alone.

Escuse me, but ME2 never stated that Cerberus was large by any means.  The size of the Derperus Sith Empire is not even the only issue. The fact that they got changed from a sinister shadow organisation to an army of Saturday-morning cartoon villains is also something I take issue with.


Remind me of how many Cerberus facilities we visit.  How many pies they have their hands in.  How much it cost to rebuild Shepard.  And build the Normandy MK2 for that matter.  The army in ME3 is explained multiple times - they are converting civilians into shock troops via the use of Reaper tech.  You can take issue with it all you want, but it's explained in plenty of detail.  You can call it bad writing as much as you like, but it's simply your opinion, not proof.

This is most certainly a retcon. Javik states that the Prothean empire had fallen because they lacked diversity, while in reality they would have fallen anyway because the Citadel trap was at that point foolproof and assured the reaper victory.

So either Javik is a ****** who doesn't want to admit his empire would have lost anyway, or it's a big fat retcon. Either way, it's bad writing in my opinion.


Javik was born 500 years after the Reaper invasion.  We know his character.  The Reaper victory was assured from the moment the Reapers hit the Citadel, of course it was, but the Protheans fought them to the bitter end.  We know from ME1 that the success of the Citadel trap did not immediately wipe out all Prothean resistance - Vigil tells us this itself.  How else did the Prothan scientists on Ilos manage to devise a way to get back to the Citadel and corrupt the Reaper signal?  Because they carried on fighting long after hope was lost.  Again - exposition is not a retcon.  It is elaboration.  Again, you are entyitled to your opinion, but your opinion is not proof.

They know the galaxy is uniting against them, so instead preventing that from happening by capturing the Citadel and shutting down the relays right away they're just going to take a gamble by facing an united galaxy head-on, something they have never done before? Yeaaaaaaaaaaah makes total sense...

Didn't the reapers shut down the relays in the previous cycle to PREVENT THEM FROM UNITING? Yeah, go figure.


They failed to do that in this cycle, though, didn't they?  It's already happened.  The galaxy has united.  Even so, the Reapers are confident in their superiority.  Rather than waging a war of attrition for centuries across various systems like they did with the Protheans, they have the opportinuty to break the back of Allied resistance in one go by luring them to Earth.  The Allied dfleet needs to fight the Reapers, defend the Crucible and infiltrate the Citadel all at the same time.  All the Reapers need to do is to focus on destroying the allied forces.  They have the advantage in numbers, firepower, position and hold the Citadel secure and all but inaccessible.  We're embarking on a desperate suicide mission.  It backfires, sure... but come on, when doesn't it backfire in fiction?  Didn't exactly the same thing happen in Return of the King?  Was that bad writing?

As I said earlier you can nitpick all you want, but it's nothing more than easily-refuted opinion, and doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

#354
The Heretic of Time

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
Yes.


Then you should have no problem proving it.  Go rright ahead.


Proving what?


The point, you missed it.

In ME1 the Council acknowledges the reapers existence (and how could they not acknowledge this fact after seeing Sovereign? That thing certainly isn't a geth ship!). In ME2 this got completely retconned with "ah yes reapers". Like I said: Inconsistent writing.


Just like you missed mine.  One line at the end of ME1 after having their lives saved vs the Council's stance for the rest of the game in it's entirety.  Once the debris has cleared and Geth attack is a memory, suddenly gratitude takes a backseat and politics take over.  And again, as you appeared to miss the other point as well - plot device.  Shepard needs to continue fighting the war alone.


Grattitude =/= acknowledgement

Again, you're begging the question and not addresing my points.

In ME1 the Council acknowledges the existence of the reapers. In ME2 they don't, without even a further explanation. It's inconsistent writing. I get it that it's a plot device, but a very badly-written one. BioWare should have thought this through. It's clear that they didn't. They didn't plan this stuff ahead.



Escuse me, but ME2 never stated that Cerberus was large by any means.  The size of the Derperus Sith Empire is not even the only issue. The fact that they got changed from a sinister shadow organisation to an army of Saturday-morning cartoon villains is also something I take issue with.


Remind me of how many Cerberus facilities we visit.  How many pies they have their hands in.  How much it cost to rebuild Shepard.  And build the Normandy MK2 for that matter.  The army in ME3 is explained multiple times - they are converting civilians into shock troops via the use of Reaper tech.  You can take issue with it all you want, but it's explained in plenty of detail.  You can call it bad writing as much as you like, but it's simply your opinion, not proof.


Okay, I give you a pass on this one. But there are so many more reasons why Cerberus in ME3 is handled badly.

The reason why they're antagonists in ME3 is stupid. The reason why they bother attacking Shepard over and over again is stupid. The fact that Cerberus threw their original standpoints and moral values out of the window is stupid. The fact that Cerberus was created to protect humanity now being the biggest problem for humanity is stupid. etc. etc. etc.



This is most certainly a retcon. Javik states that the Prothean empire had fallen because they lacked diversity, while in reality they would have fallen anyway because the Citadel trap was at that point foolproof and assured the reaper victory.

So either Javik is a ****** who doesn't want to admit his empire would have lost anyway, or it's a big fat retcon. Either way, it's bad writing in my opinion.


Javik was born 500 years after the Reaper invasion.  We know his character.  The Reaper victory was assured from the moment the Reapers hit the Citadel, of course it was, but the Protheans fought them to the bitter end.  We know from ME1 that the success of the Citadel trap did not immediately wipe out all Prothean resistance - Vigil tells us this itself.  How else did the Prothan scientists on Ilos manage to devise a way to get back to the Citadel and corrupt the Reaper signal?  Because they carried on fighting long after hope was lost.  Again - exposition is not a retcon.  It is elaboration.  Again, you are entyitled to your opinion, but your opinion is not proof.


You're begging the question. How does this relate to Javik's nonsense about them not being diverse enough?


They know the galaxy is uniting against them, so instead preventing that from happening by capturing the Citadel and shutting down the relays right away they're just going to take a gamble by facing an united galaxy head-on, something they have never done before? Yeaaaaaaaaaaah makes total sense...

Didn't the reapers shut down the relays in the previous cycle to PREVENT THEM FROM UNITING? Yeah, go figure.


They failed to do that in this cycle, though, didn't they?  It's already happened.  The galaxy has united. 


Oh really? So remind me: Why was Shepard racing around the galaxy in ME3 again? Oh wait, that's right, he's trying to unite the galaxy!

So yeah, you're wrong. The galaxy was far from united at the beginning of ME3. The Reapers could have prevented Shepard from uniting the galaxy if they their IQ didn't drop below zero between the previous cycle and ours. 

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .


#355
Ninja Stan

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That's enough bickering, thank you.

End of line.