354 réponses à ce sujet

[archangel1996]

Zardoc wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Well, IT is an interpretation of events that happen in game in ME3. So moving forward if something in game points away from IT and has no room for interpretation or flat out 'splains everything otherwise then yeah. Until then, it's a solid interpretation of events.

IT is based on circumstantial evidence at best. Nothing even remotely solid. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

dreamgazer wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

IT'ers saying they liked the ending is such crap.

If you do not like the ending without Indoc-headcanon, you do NOT like the ending.

It's that simple.

I like how the ending forces the player to consider and reevaluate the story's themes, the feasibility of the options, and the psychology of the Catalyst---which plays into literal, non-literal, and indoctrination viewpoints. 

Not that simple.

The ending at face-value does all of that (minus indoctrination, which it dispels to anyone who understands indoctrination).

What's your point?

[ElSuperGecko]

Zardoc wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Yes yes yes, we get it, you're an entitled whiner who thinks Bioware owes you something and are upset that other people actually enjoy the game, we get it.

As I said, these people doth protest too much.

lol

Oh look, there's another one!

HYR 2.0 wrote...
IT'ers saying they liked the ending is such crap.

If you do not like the ending without Indoc-headcanon, you do NOT like the ending.  It's that simple.

And another!

Look, guys - I get that the sight of other people enjoying and discussing the game, the endings and the themes contained within apparently causes you some sort of horrific emotional distress, but honestly - we can't help you with that.  It's something you're going to have to work out on your own.

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The ending at face-value does all of that (minus indoctrination, which it dispels to anyone who understands indoctrination).

What's your point?

Point being that I appreciate some of the fundamentals of the ending's structure and thinking, flawed as they may be, no matter which outlook people opt to take: the moral and ethical stances, the forward-thinking nature of what synthesis appears to prevent, and whether they're in the realm of applicable to this universe.  Hence, I like the foundation, and what it does to the player's perception on surface and meta levels. 

And it actually doesn't dispel indoctrination "to anyone who understands indoctrination", or else it wouldn't have built the interest level that it originally generated (and apparently sustains in some form).  But, I'm aware of your paradigm-shifting viewpoint on the topic.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:43 .

[AlanC9]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'm sure that some people will try and insist that ME4 will validate IT, with the definition of 'what IT is' morphing as it often has to suit the theory.

Mind you, this will be particularly true if Bioware chooses Destroy as a continuation canon, because the IT-ers who were already going 'every answer but Destroy is wrong' will construe a Destroy-canon as validating that claim.

Going back a few pages; this idea strikes me as being the optimal solution for Bio. Players who find Control or Synthesis to be superior choices don't hate Destroy as much as Destroy fans hate Control and (especially!) Synthesis. Put the IT fans on top of that, and you've got quite a few players from whom this is the best option, and the ones for whom it isn't the best option aren't being that badly hurt by the choice.

Even though my Sheps generally pick Control, I think a Destroy universe would be fun to play in. The only downside for me will be having The Twilight God running around the forums proclaiming that he was right all along (since IT-Con will no longer be disprovable), but I can live with that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 décembre 2012 - 06:55 .

[JBPBRC]

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

[archangel1996]

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

Modifié par archangel1996, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[dreamgazer]

AlanC9 wrote...

The only downside for me will be having The Twilight God running around the forums proclaiming that he was right all along (since IT-Con will no longer be disprovable), but I can live with that.

I haven't seen old TTG around these parts recently, so who knows if that'd happen.

People do tend to move on to other things.

[MegumiAzusa]

archangel1996 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

I seriously laughed reading this.

[TheProtheans]

archangel1996 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

Well you obviously don't like the literal version.

[JBPBRC]

archangel1996 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

One voice among many my friend, you may not buy another game, but it doesn't mean other people won't stop in their belief if they're truly dedicated to the idea.

[dreamgazer]

archangel1996 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

(sigh)

[archangel1996]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I could see the true hardcore believers in IT thinking that every game after ME3 is some kind of indoctrinated dream in Shepard's mind if it suits them.

If IT isn't proved to be right i will noy buy another BW game, we are not stupid, you know?

I seriously laughed reading this.

Yeah, i have to buy every DLC, arm pack and game even if i don't like something right? Money grows on trees after all

[Zardoc]

archangel1996 wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Well, IT is an interpretation of events that happen in game in ME3. So moving forward if something in game points away from IT and has no room for interpretation or flat out 'splains everything otherwise then yeah. Until then, it's a solid interpretation of events.

IT is based on circumstantial evidence at best. Nothing even remotely solid. 

Ironic, coming from you.

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
Yes yes yes, we get it, you're an entitled whiner who thinks Bioware owes you something and are upset that other people actually enjoy the game, we get it.

As I said, these people doth protest too much.

lol

Oh look, there's another one! 

HYR 2.0 wrote...
IT'ers saying they liked the ending is such crap.

If you do not like the ending without Indoc-headcanon, you do NOT like the ending.  It's that simple.

And another!

Look, guys - I get that the sight of other people enjoying and discussing the game, the endings and the themes contained within apparently causes you some sort of horrific emotional distress, but honestly - we can't help you with that.  It's something you're going to have to work out on your own.

Sorry, I just find the thought of someone being deusional enough to actually believe in the IT and spout it as a fact to be both extremely sad and pathetic. It was one thing to believe in it 9 months ago, but now? 

Modifié par Zardoc, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[archangel1996]

Zardoc wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Well, IT is an interpretation of events that happen in game in ME3. So moving forward if something in game points away from IT and has no room for interpretation or flat out 'splains everything otherwise then yeah. Until then, it's a solid interpretation of events.

IT is based on circumstantial evidence at best. Nothing even remotely solid. 

Ironic, coming from you.

Yeah, we know each other so well after all

[dreamgazer]

JBPBRC wrote...

One voice among many my friend, you may not buy another game, but it doesn't mean other people won't stop in their belief if they're truly dedicated to the idea.

This is true, but---assuming it were to be a direct sequel---I suspect that number isn't too substantial.

All synthesis supporters certainly shouldn't be judged by a few of their more abstract-minded proponents, either.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

And another!

Look, guys - I get that the sight of other people enjoying and discussing the game, the endings and the themes contained within apparently causes you some sort of horrific emotional distress, but honestly - we can't help you with that.  It's something you're going to have to work out on your own.

Nice try.

If I'm fine with the ridiculous fan-love for MEHEM, I can be fine with people's contentment with indoc-headcanon.

What I do NOT like is people pissan in my ear and tellan me it's rainan. And that's people who subscribe to IT and say they like the ending. That's like someone who downloads MEHEM saying they like the ending (after MEHEM). You do not, you've changed it so drastically from what we're given at face-value that it's BS to say you like it.

It gets worse. Not only do IT'ers keep repeating this "I like the ending" nonsense, it inevitably gives way to "The ending *is* IT!" nonsense. And, worse yet, "and if you don't recognize this indisputable truth, you are a stupid plebian, and indoctrinated!" And even that would be tolerable... if it were contained. But it's not, it's everywhere. They're like an elitist group of Jehova's witness, preaching their truth while acting like total pricks towards the rest of us.

I can name names, but I think we know who they are!

IT was tolerable before EC because it was treated like what it is: headcanon. After it, any IT supporters with an iota of sense intact left. What's left are extemists that can't see it any other way/refuse to (that's called "indoctrination," by the way).

dreamgazer wrote...

Point being that I appreciate some of the fundamentals of the ending's structure and thinking, flawed as they may be, no matter which outlook people opt to take: the moral and ethical stances, the forward-thinking nature of what synthesis appears to prevent, and whether they're in the realm of applicable to this universe.  Hence, I like the foundation, and what it does to the player's perception on surface and meta levels. 

And it actually doesn't dispel indoctrination "to anyone who understands indoctrination", or else it wouldn't have built the interest level that it originally generated (and apparently sustains in some form).  But, I'm aware of your paradigm-shifting viewpoint on the topic.

And I reject with the idea that any interpretation is valid interpretation. Bioware's diplomatic statement therein is hollow. IMO, there *is* a right and wrong way to interpret things. For example, there's an EC slide where Jack is standing at a graveyard, and you only get it if you sent her students to the frontlines. You can interpret it as her just being there to remember people who died in war, and you're free to see it any way you want, but I would call it wrong.

[dreamgazer]

Zardoc wrote...

Sorry, I just find the thought of someone being deusional enough to actually believe in the IT to be both extremely sad and pathetic.

Nicely done.

[Charlieblacko]

As a believer of IT i'm quite willing to hold my hands up and let it go if its not elaborated on in the final DLC for ME3. Although I will be dissapointed they wasted such potential for an ending.

Modifié par Charlieblacko, 06 décembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[ref]

Faithfully believing and liking IT are not the same. I like IT, it fits with the lore perfectly and is the only way to explain lots of 'plot holes' in the series. Shepard not being indoctrinated is already one considering how much exposure he has had to Reaper stuff.

Anyways, I've always felt BioWare has just produced lower quality games ever since DA2. I genuinely believe IT was not what they had in mind for ME, and the ending we got is just a result of timeline issues, rushes, changing the original ending and poor writing. ME3's ending also in my opinion was not the only thing wrong with it in terms of poor writing quality, I'd argue lots of ME3 is plagued with it.

It's great if you enjoy the ending, but from a critics point of view, it is horribly written. It manages to do almost everything you should never do when constructing an ending.

[Maxster_]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Extended Cut came and told us about what happens after in some detail, leaving Shepard's perspective. Those who haven't given up then probably never will, not unless Bioware comes out and says IT isn't true, which they won't. If you can dismiss ten minutes of ending cutscenes as unreal, nothing will convince you.

Exactly.

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

And I reject with the idea that any interpretation is valid interpretation. Bioware's diplomatic statement therein is hollow. IMO, there *is* a right and wrong way to interpret things. For example, there's an EC slide where Jack is standing at a graveyard, and you only get it if you sent her students to the frontlines. You can interpret it as her just being there to remember people who died in war, and you're free to see it any way you want, but I would call it wrong.

And I respect your viewpoint, since I don't believe that any and all interpretations apply here either (I've read enough reductio ad absurdum examples around here to try and strengthen that viewpoint, don't worry).

I reject the notion, however, that some alternate, non-literal interpretations weren't intended, though. A literal battle of wits through the Citadel; a figurative decision chamber from beyond the grave; a surreal trip through Shepard's mind while fighting the grasp of indoctrination. Those all fit into the same space, and it ain't all that complex of a design if you've experienced some science-fiction films and books.

[AlanC9]

dreamgazer wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

The only downside for me will be having The Twilight God running around the forums proclaiming that he was right all along (since IT-Con will no longer be disprovable), but I can live with that.

I haven't seen old TTG around these parts recently, so who knows if that'd happen.

People do tend to move on to other things.

Good point. That means I'm even better off if Bio goes this route.

[Maxster_]

Seboist wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

The literal ending outright contradicts the lore. 

Yet you ITers have no issues of other contradictions of lore/continuity like "ah yes reapers", Derperus Sith Empire, Prothean demise being retconned from a surprise decapitation strike to not having embraced diversity, Reapers no longer caring about using the citadel to shut down the relays, etc.

Face it, you guys are butthurt that your wish fulfillment power trip came to an abrupt end with the ending and are now desperately trying to cope with it with your "theory".

Yeah, IT exists on a presumption that EAWare capable of genius writing. And this presumption, of course, obviously false.
And this is why any evidence of bad writing is outright dismissed. 
They are just like sect, deluded fanatics, praising EAWare for nothing.

[ElSuperGecko]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
If I'm fine with the ridiculous fan-love for MEHEM, I can be fine with people's contentment with indoc-headcanon.

What I do NOT like is people pissan in my ear and tellan me it's rainan. And that's people who subscribe to IT and say they like the ending. That's like someone who downloads MEHEM saying they like the ending (after MEHEM). You do not, you've changed it so drastically from what we're given at face-value that it's BS to say you like it.

It gets worse. Not only do IT'ers keep repeating this "I like the ending" nonsense, it inevitably gives way to "The ending *is* IT!" nonsense. And, worse yet, "and if you don't recognize this indisputable truth, you are a stupid plebian, and indoctrinated!" And even that would be tolerable... if it were contained. But it's not, it's everywhere. They're like an elitist group of Jehova's witness, preaching their truth while acting like total pricks towards the rest of us.

I can name names, but I think we know who they are!

IT was tolerable before EC because it was treated like what it is: headcanon. After it, any IT supporters with an iota of sense intact left. What's left are extemists that can't see it any other way/refuse to (that's called "indoctrination," by the way).

That's your opinion of IT'ers, that's fine, you're entitled to it - but of course you're wrong, because you're attempting to generalise us and failing miserably.

I follow IT.  I have my own interpretation of it, and my own interpretation of the endings.  Does that mean I hate the endings from a literal point of view?  No, of course not.  I simply think there's more intended and more going on than what we immediately and initially see.

Your comparison with MEHEM is flawed.  MEHEM is an entirely fan made product.  It is not something that was given to us by Bioware.  When I discuss the Indoctrination Theory, I look to what Bioware has given us - the codex entries, the conversations, the background of the series.  I don't look to anything that exists outside the material itself.  I've never seen MEHEM, nor do I intend to, because it has nothing to do with the story Bioware gave us.

Now you can throw around insulting phrases like "extremists" and "elitists" and even "total pricks" if you want, but no-one's coming knocking on your door.  If you throw your weight into a thread with IT in the title, then you've only got yourself to blame.  Like it or not - the endings were intended to inspire debate and speculation, that's all that's happening with IT.  You have your interpretation, we have ours.