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[brushyourteeth]

I'm nitpicking here, but we have a long year ahead of us till DAIII comes out, and I think this is worth discussing.

Has anyone else felt that some of the DA companions come on too strongly? As in, they get attached rather more quickly to the protagonist than seems normal or healthy?

Compare Merrill and Leliana. Leliana, in her first few conversations with you, asks probing questions and compliments you. It's easy to see that she's eager to become friends, but she doesn't immediately presume that you are one. Merrill, on the other hand, jumps right into the friendzone as soon as she reaches the alienage. I was rather taken aback by it -- as I felt like up till then I'd been delivering some goods to Kirkwall rather than forming a strong bond with a new companion!

Then take Alistair and Anders. I know that from my very first conversation with Alistair, he took notice of the fact that I was a woman. I felt, from the conversation that flowed right away, that he was studying me to see what made me tick. Anders, on the other hand, acquired my help in attempting to rescue his friend, and promptly made a pass at me if I said even one kind word to reassure him.

Yikes!

I understood Aveline's strong attachment and protectiveness of Hawke. They'd been through a lot together in just a few short weeks. I thought Varric waited an appropriate amount of time before he presumed to act like you were best buds, but Sebastian seemed to jump the gun in that area and it kind of threw me off.

The DA:O companions seem to be largely less guilty of this than in DAII. Wynne presumed to lecture you, but that was just part of her character. In fact, one of my favorite characters ever (Sten) was intentionally abrasive and kept you at arms length, rather than owning a relationship with you right off the bat.

I realize that, for someone like Merrill, her being attached to someone quickly might be part of her characterization. And I get that. But in my case, it made me wish to back away from her slowly. It made me less interested in getting to know her better, rather than more. I felt that she and Anders were needy. That somehow a close friendship with either of them was less gratifying because it was so easy.

Now, I also realize that this is completely subjective -- that my thoughts aren't right or wrong, they just are. But I'm curious about everyone else's thoughts and impressions on the subject: did you feel that any of the DA companions came on too strongly? Did you like that, or dislike it? What improvements would you like to see in that area in future games?

Thanks!!

[jack253]

I think the main problem in DA2 is that the relationship between hawk and the companions is not played out well. There are less moments for actual dialog with the characters then in DA:O and large moments in game were we simply don't know what has happened between them. This results in the fact that when we witness a conversation with them, the relationship will have been going on for a longer period in time then we have witnessed and thus will be on a higher "level" then when we last spoke.

[Harlequin2]

I didn't actually notice anything like this, probably because I was trying to be friends with anything that had dialogue so the sooner that was done, the sooner I was satisfied.

I disagree with Sebastian though. I remember thinking that it was quite frustrating that he wasn't your friend until Act 2. In fact, after Duty he just ignores you. It was only three years later that I got to meet him! But now that you mention it, I do think Anders was a bit quick to enlist your help with his mate Karl! But even in Awakenings he was quick to attach himself to your character. Either way I don't think it's enough to start flipping tables.

[PsychoBlonde]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Has anyone else felt that some of the DA companions come on too strongly? As in, they get attached rather more quickly to the protagonist than seems normal or healthy?

Some of the party-joining stuff in DA2 did seem a little rushed/forced from my perspective, but in most cases the initial quest where you meet the companion is so short that it'd be hard for this NOT to be the case.  There's a balancing act here--I also dislike it when they leave companion intros until so late in the game you hardly get a chance to know that companion.

A lot of GM's in pen and paper games handle this problem by starting out the game in a central location with all party members present.  I generally give my players a pre-game assignment "we're starting here.  Explain how you got here."  Then I try to make it my job to give reasons for them to stick together and get to know each other.

You can't really do this with exceptionally weird companions like, say, Justice or Shale or Sten, though, because having their extraordinary introduction story take place as background and references would be jarring and nonsensical in the extreme.  So they might benefit from making a list of "here are companions that MUST be introduced as a separate event, and here are companions that can be pre-introduced and we can learn about their details later".  This would really help sort out this whole "coming on too strong" issue, which I think is a result of trying to cram too many very disparate introductions into too small a time frame.  Also, once they establish this baseline division, they can subvert it and do other interesting things with it.

[LolaLei]

I wonder if that's down to us not being able to converse with the DA2 companions at will? So everything felt like it was moving quicker in terms of flirting because there was only one or two chances for interaction allocated within each Act.

[meanieweenie]

I felt that Merrill's clingy attachment came so quickly because she had no one else. You were pretty much the only person she knew and you'd 'agreed' to take her with you. Plus she already knew you weren't going to kill her or turn her in.

Anders did jump into the 'gimme some sugar' zone very very quickly. In retrospect (to me) it reads like he always had another agenda. He needed somewhere safe to stay and he needed an alibi while he went about his filthy business. I know there are many of you out there who got a TOTALLY different vibe from his story line and that's cool too.

[HurricaneGinger]

The DA2 relationships felt a little rushed, though I do understand that some personalities do cling faster. Merrill makes sense. However when it came to Fenris's personality and torments, it probably should have taken longer to gain his trust.

[llandwynwyn]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Anders, on the other hand, acquired my help in attempting to rescue his friend, and promptly made a pass at me if I said even one kind word to reassure him.

Yikes!

DAA!Anders was a bit like Isabela, but (J)Anders is a needy flirt. It can be annoying, but if you put a stop on it he won't bother you again...Unless you're dating someone that he doesn't approve aka anyone not named (J)Anders. 

[Sylvanpyxie]

But even in Awakenings he was quick to attach himself to your character

In Awakenings Anders is practically pushed on you, not because of his "overly attached dialogue", but because you were both stuck in a Keep with a mountain of Darkspawn. The only thing you could do is work together to stop them. It wasn't a matter of "instant trust" it was a matter of survival, Anders wasn't going to survive without help.

After that, if you still keep Anders in your party, you've effectively saved him from the Templars and the Circle. That's the kind of thing that earns you a bit of gratitude, in my opinion. His trust and chumminess after that? Understandable, he's a talker and he'll talk your ear off at any given opportunity, but he doesn't exactly force friendship on you. He just talks too much.

Unlike Dragon Age 2 Anders. Who tries to force friendship on you. Then force his beliefs on you. Then force himself on you. Dragon Age 2 Anders had no subtle change, no moment of dire need, no unfortunate circumstance to overcome. He just wanted someone to tag along to a meeting with his buddy on a hunch, and he blindly trusts Hawke to keep secret the fact that Anders is 1) An apostate. 2) Actively fighting against Templars. 3) Meeting his co-conspirator.

As for the original topic - Yes, I get heavy creeps from the fact DA2 companions fall so readily into happy friendly fun-times with Hawke, regardless of what Hawke chooses to do in their starter quests. They all seem happy to throw themselves on their swords for you after the initial meet, greet and quest.

The only ones I don't find quite as creepy are Varric, Aveline and Fenris. (Please note: I still find them creepy)

Fenris and Aveline met Hawke under dire circumstances - escaping Lothering and evading/killing Slavers/A powerful Blood Mage - so their gratitude at least makes sense. Aveline's easy friendship is a little unnerving to me, but it's explained by a "one year leap", apparently.

Fenris' dialogue is probably the least aggressive, he's not overly friendly for those first few conversations, even if he is quite civil. He only seems to get chummy in Act2 and at that point a couple of years have passed, supposedly.

Varric? He's all business and charm, same as always. He only really gets overly friendly after the expedition, if I remember correctly. Which I might not.

Overall - I consider the friendliness of companions to have a relatively large scale of creepiness about it. The only one I don't find overly creepy in their attachment is Varric, and that's just because his character makes his charm and interest appear benign.

It's probably the "leap years" and their lack of regonition that skewers my perspective on it, but the majority of companion interactions are just three steps ahead of my mindset.

/opinions.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 06 décembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[brushyourteeth]

I think maybe part of the issue for me is that our companions' baggage kind of got laid out for us right at the beginning of our relationship with them. There were very few surprises. Aveline's personal quest came the closest.

Merrill's blood magic came out right away.
Anders' possession came out right away.
Varric's relationship with his brother came out right away.
Isabela's freeing Castillon's slaves came out right away.
Fenris' being a valuable slave came out right away.
Sebastian's revenge and love of the Chantry came out right away.
And the twins didn't have any issues that weren't there from the beginning.

Whereas Zevran and Oghren pretend to be shallow but aren't, Leliana slowly becomes more confident about speaking about her bard history over time, Morrigan and Sten both push you away until you finally win them over, and Wynne and Alistair outright hide their secrets from you until they can't anymore.

There was more space for development there. Or at least the illusion of it.

And I completely agree that part of my disconnect was probably with the time skips -- at least that will explain why the friendship seemed to be perceived as more solid to the DAII companions than it was to me. Though why we seemed so insta-chummy in Act I is still a bit of a mystery to me. *shrug*

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:54 .

[Maria Caliban]

I suspect that with the reduction in companion quests, DA:I will feel as though the relationships have a slower pace as more conversations will be the 'getting to know you' sort.

[R2s Muse]

Hmm, never really thought about it before. The only one I think really felt this way for me personally was Anders, and sadly that felt like a shortcoming of some of the dialogue wheel writing not being as smooth as I would have liked. He seemed appropriately cautious with me all through his introductory quest with Carl, even suspicious of my evil ulterior motives, and then suddenly I'm awkwardly flirting with him like there's been a flirty vibe all along. Some of his abruptness later in the story felt like it could be more character driven, that he really had these other issues and his loyalties were torn. But, the introductory scenes were a little jarring for me.

Sebastian's interactions were sort of the opposite, in that it was Hawke that I thought was coming on too strong. Every flirt she could say to him made me cringe and wonder if she'd picked up that line at the Rose. Knowing his ... proclivities, they seemed out of character for Hawke to suddenly be trying to make him blush.

[Isaantia]

Played DAA again and that beginning scene where the templar is THAT MAN IS A DANGEROUS APPOSTATE [sic] AND A  MURDERER!!! I'm like, man you don't know the half of it, lady.
But back to being on topic... 

brushyourteeth wrote...

And I completely agree that part of my disconnect was probably with the time skips -- at least that will explain why the friendship seemed to be perceived as more solid to the DAII companions than it was to me. Though why we seemed so insta-chummy in Act I is still a bit of a mystery to me. *shrug*

I agree with you about the time skipping. But the other part of it is that Varric is telling the story. I think that's what makes it awkward.

[Wulfram]

To an extent, we've got a limited amount of dialogue - that's always going to be true - so getting things moving fairly quickly isn't a bad thing

[iOnlySignIn]

DA2 companions are all stupid in one way or another. Except Varric.

Kirkwall's poisonous fumes/bad magical aura must kill brain cells. Against which Dwarves are immune.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[henkez3]

Well, I think it helps adding realism to the character because people are not all the same in real life.

[tishyw]

LolaLei wrote...

I wonder if that's down to us not being able to converse with the DA2 companions at will? So everything felt like it was moving quicker in terms of flirting because there was only one or two chances for interaction allocated within each Act.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, the time jumps made the romances/friendships seems disjointed and rushed, more conversations per act would have helps avoid this I think.

[rapscallioness]

I think the large time skips did add to that feeling.

And Anders, well, I didn't flirt with him the first time I had the chance cuz it just felt inappropriate at that time. No matter what that big, shiny heart icon was trying to compel me to do. Ooohh, shiny.

The second time I did flirt with him, and wow. The whole don't go there...there can never be anything between us..relationship talk, relationship..and how if anything to Hawke, it would surely kill him, or something like that. My only reaction was, "Whoa. Dude. Calm your Shiznits."

That should have been red flag to me for his character. Extremes. Fenris I thought was more of a slow boil. And Isabella, well, that's just Isabella.

I also wonder, though, how much of the friend/rivalry system played into that. I, personally, loved that system, but--since we've been learning about word budgets, etc.--I wonder if that system took away the...hmm...fleshiness..of the dialogues.

Like instead of one experience of love and/or friendship, they had to parse out the words to cover both friend/rival and in the process both were necessarily more brief?

In DAO the companions did have the chance to open up to you at a more steady pace.

[Ellyria]

 *thought this was going to be another "I hate companions hitting on me QQ" thread and came in to make a witty retort *


Anyway! The time skips and limited companion conversations, IMO, are the culprit. With only one or two convos per act and then the massive time gaps where it doesn't seem like anything happened anyway your companions seem to go from aquaintance to BFF/lover in one hour of play time. It's actually kind of scary. 


Like Sebastian for example. In Act 1 you do his quest and then in Act 2 he's the only one that he can ask for help because apparently you're good friends all of a sudden. The game tells us it's been three years but we didn't get to see any of that, so it's extremely disjointed.

[Daerog]

I blame the time jumps in DA2.

While I didn't mind it so much in DA2, now that you mention it, I think the flow was better in DAO than DA2. I liked that companions were more active than just standing around camp doing nothing, though.

[Harle Cerulean]

tishyw wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

I wonder if that's down to us not being able to converse with the DA2 companions at will? So everything felt like it was moving quicker in terms of flirting because there was only one or two chances for interaction allocated within each Act.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, the time jumps made the romances/friendships seems disjointed and rushed, more conversations per act would have helps avoid this I think.

More conversations per act may well have helped this feelings, but a DA:O style system where all dialogues are available to you immediately as long as you have sufficient 'points' with the character isn't exactly ideal (especially when you can literally buy relationships with them via lots of cake).  I'm so familiar with Zevran's dialogues by now that I can get all his dialogues (and his romance) that are available before the Landsmeet done within half an hour of meeting him (except the one about his opinion of the Dalish, since that doesn't trigger 'til you've met the Dalish).

That is a rush, and while there's a very logical counter to it - "so don't do them all so quickly!" - there's also the fact that I, and I'm sure many others, have a tendency to explore dialogues as thoroughly as possible.  I actually got most of Zevran's dialogues done the first time I talked to him, on my very first game, because I liked talking to him and hey, there were more topics, let's hear them!  Obviously, since I didn't know him as well as I do now, I did pick a couple answers that didn't give me max points but I still ran through almost all of his dialogue ridiculously fast.

I'd prefer a system where that's not possible, personally!  It meant most of the game, I had nothing to talk to Zev about but "Tent?"  A timed-release or triggered-by-events (as long as the companions don't have to be in the party for the event!) system of dialogue availability would be much better, in my view.  That would space things out without the jarring feeling of the timeskips.  

(I did like the overall intent of the timeskips, but they weren't implemented as well as they could have been, and relationships to companions were definitely one of the big things that suffered from that.)

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 07 décembre 2012 - 05:53 .

[draken-heart]

 Y'know, I am beginning to see Merrill, or girls like her, as Dragon age's version of WWE Diva AJ Lee (Look her up here) just my opinion though.

[Fredward]

Eh. Didn't really bother me, some people do that IRL as well.

[In Exile]

tishyw wrote...
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, the time jumps made the romances/friendships seems disjointed and rushed, more conversations per act would have helps avoid this I think.

Do people pace out their conversations with the party in DA:O? Becaue by Lothering my Warden is, for example, in a furious romance with Morrigain whose approval you can basically shoot up by the end of the quest.

You get almost the entire story out of each NPC right when you first meet them by spending about 30-40 min emptying out the dialogue tree, and then there's only maybe one quest for them in that game.

I thought DA2 was much better spread out. But maybe others play differently?