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[Iakus]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Thinking about it some more, I wonder if part of it could be that the DAII companions didn't always seem to have a solid reason for following Hawke, whereas the DA:O companions usually had a good reason for being invested in fighting the Blight.

Don't know if this is relevant or anything, but one thing I noticed about DAO characters:

When you talk to them, how they address you changes based on your standing with them.  It changes as you reach certain levels of approval, and if they are romanced or not.  You can in a way, see the relationship developing.  While in DA2, the relationship is presumably developing over the course of the "missing years" so we...miss it...

[Kileyan]

iakus wrote...

  While in DA2, the relationship is presumably developing over the course of the "missing years" so we...miss it...

This is pretty much where DA2 failed, other than the frequently mentioned bland art and emptiness of Kirkwall.

I bought the game on the premise that Bioware was so proud of. They were doing a game that gave them a lot of freedom. A single character to write, a character and a city that could grow during 10 years. A game where all kinds of meaningfull things could happen via your choices.

Problem was, there was never any hint or experience that time had passed. The city never changed, the characters never changed. It was just BAM, we tell you 3 years passed, just swallow it and nod your head.

The game could have existed within a 2.5 week adventure and no one would have been the wiser. I can't recall a single important thing that happened, that was emphasized as a years spanning event.

This was a chance for our hero to take roots, get a wife, maybe a child or two, be tied to an area and care. A chance to really tug our heart strings, do something epic. Instead we got a zombie mom, and some vague idea that time passed, but never really felt it.

It wasn't even innovative, it was still the silly romance trope of Bioware, at the end you get the sex scene, whether the game was 10 years long or 7 weeks long, it was the same romance progress. It is almost like DA2 was designed so that you couldn't tell it apart from the typical Bioware game.

They wasted the potential of that idea, and made a typical Bioware game and just tried to tack on the 10 years thing, rather than making it the core of the game........imho.

[Orian Tabris]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm nitpicking here, but we have a long year ahead of us till DAIII comes out, and I think this is worth discussing.

Has anyone else felt that some of the DA companions come on too strongly? As in, they get attached rather more quickly to the protagonist than seems normal or healthy?

Merrill for that second question. Buuuut, it suits her social-retardedness (it might sound mean, but look at my signature, and I'm a social retard IRL, anyway) and thus, her personality. She sleeps with one person and falls in love. You can even single her out on that... if your willing to give up the romance.

Overall, I think BioWare does a good job. They seem to be well aware of whether or not a character might seem to be coming on too strongly.

I would love to have an LI companion play hard to get, especially a female kossith! This would be an excellent idea for a romance. Much like Sten but with the ability to succeed.

[Orian Tabris]

llandwynwyn wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Anders, on the other hand, acquired my help in attempting to rescue his friend, and promptly made a pass at me if I said even one kind word to reassure him.

Yikes!

DAA!Anders was a bit like Isabela, but (J)Anders is a needy flirt. It can be annoying, but if you put a stop on it he won't bother you again...Unless you're dating someone that he doesn't approve aka anyone not named (J)Anders. 

Heh. You see, you're almost completely wrong. He's only needy AFTER you start to romance him, and it's more to do with his crazy mage-templar thing. As for before romance, they're all the same as Anders, anyway.

Either you haven't romanced Isabela, or you've forgotten that (J)Anders doesn't bother you if you do. It's only with Merrill and Fenris he does that, and it's only because he doesn't like them!

[Solmanian]

I think the OP is just reading in the lines something that isn't realy there... Meril is by far the shyest of the bunch, and no companion makes a romantic move unless you make it first. If the OP chose the "flirt" options, she shouldn't be surprised with the result. Also remember that theres period of months and years between acts, so it might just look like the relationship is going fast.

[Xilizhra]

I didn't personally find either one of them objectionable. Anders, if you're nice to him, has had an absolutely unprecedented event happen to him; someone not immediately turning upon him when they find out about his being a semi-abomination, and even being basically supportive and saying that he at least had good intentions. His relief and gratitude would be profound.
Merrill is similar, although a bit less severe (then again, she doesn't hit on you either). She's kind of a pariah and has never really interacted with humans, so she's completely lost and as such will respond fairly strongly to support.
In DAO, the companions are almost all more socially well-adjusted than much of the DA2 party, and as such, this sort of thing happens less often.

[littlewisp]

Sten made me want to romance him. . . . .That's really all I have to say in that matter.


:|

[MilaBanilla]

littlewisp wrote...

Sten made me want to romance him. . . . .That's really all I have to say in that matter.


:|

We can only dream, kadan 

[Celtic Latino]

It doesn't bother me. Some companions SHOULD come on strongly (even too strongly) as part of their character. And you should have that option to make them back away, whether it's 'just a little bit' (let's keep it professional/calm down) or it's 'seriously...back off'.

Anders...well Anders seemed more absorbed in himself and the mage situation than anything. He just loves you for agreeing with him. Kind of like people in RL who 'love you' yet know next to nothing about you (or even conversate with you), talk *at* you yet view you as their best friend (or in worse cases, are in love/lust with you). Anders struck me as that type. ._.

[brushyourteeth]

Solmanian wrote...

I think the OP is just reading in the lines something that isn't realy there... Meril is by far the shyest of the bunch, and no companion makes a romantic move unless you make it first. If the OP chose the "flirt" options, she shouldn't be surprised with the result. Also remember that theres period of months and years between acts, so it might just look like the relationship is going fast.

Well, I wasn't speaking about romance specifically -- I felt like some of the friendships were just as abruptly serious as any of the romances were. 

[brushyourteeth]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't personally find either one of them objectionable. Anders, if you're nice to him, has had an absolutely unprecedented event happen to him; someone not immediately turning upon him when they find out about his being a semi-abomination, and even being basically supportive and saying that he at least had good intentions. His relief and gratitude would be profound.
Merrill is similar, although a bit less severe (then again, she doesn't hit on you either). She's kind of a pariah and has never really interacted with humans, so she's completely lost and as such will respond fairly strongly to support.
In DAO, the companions are almost all more socially well-adjusted than much of the DA2 party, and as such, this sort of thing happens less often.

This is probably the best explanation I've seen so far. 

... like I admitted in the OP, this is nitpicking, but I do wish I'd been given the opportunity to encourage those friendships rather than having them take me so by surprise. Hope that makes sense to others -- and that I'm not passionately upset about that, but that it was a little jarring for me on my first playthrough. "I picked up a best friend? How did that happen?!?!"

[snackrat]

I agree, yet I think the lack of dialogue with DAII's companions hurt them in this regard. Though Hawke knew them for nearly a decade, because we only see around five conversations with each it feels like they are being more forward than is the case. Rather than feeling like 'three years later this happened' it feels like 'in their next conversation, this happened' because we don't see the development between them.

Not to say that there ISN'T a lot of assumption though. Your examples of Merril and Anders are right on the nose.

[Weltea]

To be honest I liked that some of the characters got so attached and so soon (with the exception of Alistair,who is the main reason I don't like playing a female chracter in DA:O. Actually he is the only reason I don't like playing a female character in that game). Because it's part of their characterization and there are always good reasons for their behavior (and it plays out differently for each character).
Take Anders:mentally unstable,hiding from templars in a templar filled city while worrying about Karl AND carrying around the burden of having 'melted' or whatever with Justice,slowly but surely losing himself more and more to Justice and having to keep this a secret from everyone. And then Hawke comes along,helping him,seeing him loose control and treats him kindly, AND being the only person in over a year (since he joined with Justice) he could truly be open about himself. OF COURSE he gets attached.
Merril in pretty much every aspect acts like a child. And that child has her entire family disapproving of what she plans to do. Most of them seem to want her gone. And in that moment where she leaves the only family and life she has ever known Hawke comes along and accepts her into his life.
And if you truly disapprove of their 'clingyness' there is always the rivalry path.
To summarize: I had no problems with it.

And as for DA:O companions not having those problems:
a)their issues pale against those of the DA2 charas
b)they didn't stay with you for 7 years
c)all of them had a common goal to focus on
d)they didn't hang out with you because they liked you,they fought with you because of that common goal and MAYBE came to like you during the time they were forced to spend with you. DA2 companions reason to spend 7 years following you around is largely based on their affection/respect for you. After their recruiting quest there's zero reason outside of that for them to still follow you around (all do pay you for your services rendered after all).

[sea-]

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm nitpicking here, but we have a long year ahead of us till DAIII comes out, and I think this is worth discussing.

Has anyone else felt that some of the DA companions come on too strongly? As in, they get attached rather more quickly to the protagonist than seems normal or healthy?

Yes.

Dragon Age companions (really, all BioWare companions) are obviously just avatars of cheap pandering that exist for the purpose of player masturbation/wish fulfilment fantasy.  They are designed to appeal to very specific audiences in a contrived "something for everyone" way that feels more artificial than Donald Trump's hair plugs. 

Usually their motives for following the player are poorly explained and justified, especially because almost none of them ever have a personal stake in what's going on and are just sort of dudes and ladies who were picked up by the roadside and decided on a whim to pledge life and limb in service of some dunce.

The whole "I have a different voice actor and unique face/hair model" syndrome also runs strong in them.  You know that if someone looks like they weren't just auto-generated using the "randomize" setting in the toolset's face morph editor, they are a companion, and therefore their entire life, appearance, and function revolves around the player character because it's the player character.

Let's also not forget the "romance" crap which always just works out to the followers throwing themselves at the player and the player choosing between the "meek and cute one" or the "sexy and bold one."  They have no relevance to the plot whatsoever and don't even add depth and characterization to the followers or players themselves because, like everything else about the followers, they are built for ego-stroking and not for any legitimate narrative purpose.

Consider companions from almost any Obsidian game by comparison, which actually have motives (sometimes supporting or conflicting with the player's), relationships and allegiances which are complicated and distinct from one another, and generally speaking serve to benefit in some way by following the player on his/her insane quest to save the world.  BioWare only recently began to grasp this in Dragon Age II, but of course that was kind of ruined by being, you know, a ****ing horrendously bad, rushed game that desperately needed another 2 years of polish and revision.

Modifié par sea-, 08 décembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[cowoline]

Weltea wrote...

To be honest I liked that some of the characters got so attached and so soon (with the exception of Alistair,who is the main reason I don't like playing a female chracter in DA:O. Actually he is the only reason I don't like playing a female character in that game). Because it's part of their characterization and there are always good reasons for their behavior (and it plays out differently for each character).
Take Anders:mentally unstable,hiding from templars in a templar filled city while worrying about Karl AND carrying around the burden of having 'melted' or whatever with Justice,slowly but surely losing himself more and more to Justice and having to keep this a secret from everyone. And then Hawke comes along,helping him,seeing him loose control and treats him kindly, AND being the only person in over a year (since he joined with Justice) he could truly be open about himself. OF COURSE he gets attached.
Merril in pretty much every aspect acts like a child. And that child has her entire family disapproving of what she plans to do. Most of them seem to want her gone. And in that moment where she leaves the only family and life she has ever known Hawke comes along and accepts her into his life.
And if you truly disapprove of their 'clingyness' there is always the rivalry path.
To summarize: I had no problems with it.

And as for DA:O companions not having those problems:
a)their issues pale against those of the DA2 charas
b)they didn't stay with you for 7 years
c)all of them had a common goal to focus on
d)they didn't hang out with you because they liked you,they fought with you because of that common goal and MAYBE came to like you during the time they were forced to spend with you. DA2 companions reason to spend 7 years following you around is largely based on their affection/respect for you. After their recruiting quest there's zero reason outside of that for them to still follow you around (all do pay you for your services rendered after all).

Completely agree with this. Saw a video of someone dumping Anders on Youtube and actually thought it funny how he reacted, claiming he was overreacting... poor guy. I am so relieved he is not a real person because that was just cruel.

[Hatchetman77]

David Gaider wrote...

Part of this is a result of the way we divided each follower's content in DA2. Splitting up the game into three time periods forced us to have an "introduction" for each follower at the beginning of one-- a way to catch up and tell the player what the follower has been up to in the intervening years.

This was a huge problem in DA2.  Too muh of the story happened off camera and had to be told to the player instead of being shown.  I always felt like I was a side character popping in and out of someone else's game.

[frostajulie]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

But even in Awakenings he was quick to attach himself to your character

In Awakenings Anders is practically pushed on you, not because of his "overly attached dialogue", but because you were both stuck in a Keep with a mountain of Darkspawn. The only thing you could do is work together to stop them. It wasn't a matter of "instant trust" it was a matter of survival, Anders wasn't going to survive without help.

After that, if you still keep Anders in your party, you've effectively saved him from the Templars and the Circle. That's the kind of thing that earns you a bit of gratitude, in my opinion. His trust and chumminess after that? Understandable, he's a talker and he'll talk your ear off at any given opportunity, but he doesn't exactly force friendship on you. He just talks too much.

Unlike Dragon Age 2 Anders. Who tries to force friendship on you. Then force his beliefs on you. Then force himself on you. Dragon Age 2 Anders had no subtle change, no moment of dire need, no unfortunate circumstance to overcome. He just wanted someone to tag along to a meeting with his buddy on a hunch, and he blindly trusts Hawke to keep secret the fact that Anders is 1) An apostate. 2) Actively fighting against Templars. 3) Meeting his co-conspirator.

As for the original topic - Yes, I get heavy creeps from the fact DA2 companions fall so readily into happy friendly fun-times with Hawke, regardless of what Hawke chooses to do in their starter quests. They all seem happy to throw themselves on their swords for you after the initial meet, greet and quest.

The only ones I don't find quite as creepy are Varric, Aveline and Fenris. (Please note: I still find them creepy)

Fenris and Aveline met Hawke under dire circumstances - escaping Lothering and evading/killing Slavers/A powerful Blood Mage - so their gratitude at least makes sense. Aveline's easy friendship is a little unnerving to me, but it's explained by a "one year leap", apparently.

Fenris' dialogue is probably the least aggressive, he's not overly friendly for those first few conversations, even if he is quite civil. He only seems to get chummy in Act2 and at that point a couple of years have passed, supposedly.

Varric? He's all business and charm, same as always. He only really gets overly friendly after the expedition, if I remember correctly. Which I might not.

Overall - I consider the friendliness of companions to have a relatively large scale of creepiness about it. The only one I don't find overly creepy in their attachment is Varric, and that's just because his character makes his charm and interest appear benign.

It's probably the "leap years" and their lack of regonition that skewers my perspective on it, but the majority of companion interactions are just three steps ahead of my mindset.

/opinions.

I think you have accurately discerned the problem with DA2 relationships it was that a lot of stuff must have happened over those leap years between acts that we the player were never actually a part of and thus the relationships seemed unrealistic, forced at times, and even often downright stalkerish single white female style.  Bioware just expects you the player to use your imagination to fill in the blanks over those years.

It was very jarring this way and I hope they do not do this again in DA3

[ReallyRue]

I don't know about Leliana, I found her friendship in DAO kind of came at me out of nowhere. Possibly because I wasn't really trying to befriend her, I mostly just asked a few polite questions about what she was doing at the Chantry and about her general beliefs. All of a sudden she goes from pleasant conversation to 'I feel like I can tell you anything'. Definitely agree about Anders though, he really jumps the gun.

All things considered though, I like to have a blend. If all the characters were as abrasive as Morrigan, Shale and Sten to begin with, I doubt I'd ever feel that close to them. Certainly not all of them. It's nice to have a few at the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Todd23]

Mila-banilla wrote...

littlewisp wrote...

Sten made me want to romance him. . . . .That's really all I have to say in that matter.


:|

We can only dream, kadan 

Sadly he has a thing for Shale.