63 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Rogue was fine, but agree for warrior and mage.

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 décembre 2012 - 06:21 .

[Fredward]

If you don't care what they do with the combat then this thread makes no sense. xp

[In Exile]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I don't care what you do with combat, just make it different than DA2's. The never-ending spawining horde system you have in place isn't fun at all. Killing 20 enemies just to have 20 more respawn right on top of you isn't fun. Especially on normal. I can only imagine how annoying it is on higher difficulties. So, for the next Dragon Age please find a way to make combat difficult without resorting to spawning wave after wave of enemies. Please and thank you if you are considering. 

I agree overall with the tenor of this post - i.e., the mooks sucked, but I do think that the annoyance of the combat was overstated. An individual encounter, actually, I think is kind of fun - even with the waves. But it sucks when you play it more than that. Caveat:I was super busy recently and could only play DA2 for about 30 min a time at most, and then the wave mechanic is not so bad because, basically, you get a really intense and long encounter + a bit of story, and then you can move on with your day. I almost feel like DA2 was designed to be played in about 30-1 hr bursts every 1-2 days.

So re: difficulty, it depends. Only the enemy rogue equivalents were brutal, and even those you could draw out of stealth with a force mage. Once the horid knockdown mechanic was edited out, the fights became very easy (on nightmare).

The only parts that sucked were bosses, but that's becuase my own tactics weren't how the designers wanted the game to be played (I didn't use aggro to manage mooks, I used force magic + the environment, especially chokeholds). 

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I don't care what you do with combat, just make it different than DA2's. The never-ending spawining horde system you have in place isn't fun at all. Killing 20 enemies just to have 20 more respawn right on top of you isn't fun. Especially on normal. I can only imagine how annoying it is on higher difficulties. So, for the next Dragon Age please find a way to make combat difficult without resorting to spawning wave after wave of enemies. Please and thank you if you are considering. 

Nobody liked the wave system. DA II's 2 major DLC adventures, Mark of the Assassin and Legacy both did away with the wave system (and recycled environments too). A fight or two using waves would have been fine. Every single fight was stupid, annoying, and completely killed our ability to use any sort of tactics. It just came to down to Button Awesome mashing...

I'm pretty sure BioWare's not bringing this aspect back, but I agree: BioWare please don't bring the wave system back. It sucked majorly.

[Maria Caliban]

The wave system put in place to counter the power of PC alpha strikes in DA:O. It's not a bad system, but it was implemented poorly in areas and isn't right for *every* fight.

[thats1evildude]

I didn't mind it. I got used to expecting new waves of enemies to appear and would factor that into my combat style.

[Doctoglethorpe]

The waves were kind of annoying, not a huge deal imo but the game is better without it.  Other then that though, I loved the new combat. 

[Darkly Tranquil]

Trash waves are a fairly tiresome way of making combat challenging, as it simply reduces it to a war of attrition as you wade through a horde of trash. Enemies with mechanics that force you to plan an co-ordinate abilites to defeat them are much more interesting than waves of hurlocks.

[Liamv2]

As long as they don't make it like origins im happy

[stysiaq]

I just want the combat to be like in classic BioWare titles.

Waves of enemies are almost as stupid as FF swords, and DA II had a bunch of them.

Also, I want some "realistic" abilities (the non-magical ones), not a Warrior's Power Attack that makes all enemies explode all of a sudden.

[SpunkyMonkey]

DA:2's combat was woeful. As I've mentioned elsewhere action-oriented combat won't work for a game like this unless there's a targeting system, cover, or Divinity 2 style action-combat (which will kill squad based setups).

I loved Origins combat, the tactical setups of some enemies ares is superbly fleshed out and very unappreciated. It just needed a few minor tweaks to make it a bit better and, IMO, speed wasn't one of them - they should have just given the warrior a more powerful feel. Blows didn't ever feel as if they really connect and that was my main gripe. Kinda worked for the rogue as it gave it a more stealthy feel anyway, but the warrior lacked.

DA:2's Jackie-Chan, John Woo OTT-ness was awful too. That embarrassing animation of the rogue kicking a potion etc. at the opponent was just laughable. In fact, I don't think I've ever laughed AT a game so much.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 07 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Bfler]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

I loved Origins combat, the tactical setups of some enemies ares is superbly fleshed out and very unappreciated. It just needed a few minor tweaks to make it a bit better and, IMO, speed wasn't one of them .

Most people who complain about speed in DAO seem to compare it with action games like God of War, but don't seem to have played the older DnD games, where attacks are executed in rounds. Look f.e. a battle in Neverwinter Nights and compare it to DAO and then come back and say Origins is slow.

[Twisted Path]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

DA:2's Jackie-Chan, John Woo OTT-ness was awful too. That embarrassing animation of the rogue kicking a potion etc. at the opponent was just laughable. In fact, I don't think I've ever laughed AT a game so much.

Yeah. My chief complaints about the combat in DA2 are aesthetic. I really hated the over the top anime-style combat moves and bloodsplosions. Replaying the game with the mod that turns off gibbing I realized that there were actually some good ideas (and not so good ideas, the waves being the biggest thing,) in the actual game mechanics. I just didn't notice them over the flying gibs of faceless-mook and Fenris flying up 15 feet into the air to slam his sword down on guys like he's Cloud Strife.

[Frankaidenryan]

I want a middel ground. Slow enough that I can see what I'm doing and don't bounce around like a ping pong ball, but fast enough that playing a warrior doesn't become tedious.

Plus, the special moves really make the combat fun, especially the finishing moves. Those were sorely missing from DA2.

[milena87]

Apart from the wave mechanic (that I liked at first, but got kinda predictable and boring fast), I loved the combat in DA2 (I actually never enjoyed playing a 2 handed warrior before): it was a clear improvement over DAO's one for me.
The only thing I missed from DAO was the tactical view on PC.

Anyway, I'm sure that combat will be fine for DA3, it's not one of the things I'm worried about.

[DarkSpiral]

I completely agree with the lack of finishing moves. Which funny, because I once complained about the fact that the death move on Ogres was annoying, due to its length.

But on my last replay of DA:O, I found them to be great fun to watch.

And I agree with the aesthetic of the combat waves being the biggest problem. The actual fact that another wave of enemies shows up wasn't all THAT bad (yes, it was overused, but in principle the idea is fine) but the fact that every enemy was a ninja that popped out of the shadows or phased out of the walls was tiresome. Have them throw open the doors (they did, in fact do that once in a while, but only rarely) run around the corners of the building, burst out of the sewer tunnels, SOMETHING.

EDIT: Oh yes.  I want the tactical camera view back.  Very, very badly.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 07 décembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Zeta42]

I actually liked the never-ending waves of enemies in DA2. My party was equally fast, if not faster; mooks helpfully concentrate themselves into small areas so I and my companions can easily hit them with good stuff; most important, rogues can Flash Step! Combat in DA2 is paradise, if you know how to exploit it properly. And if you start to run out of health, mana or stamina, what do you think the potions are for?

[SpunkyMonkey]

Twisted Path wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

DA:2's Jackie-Chan, John Woo OTT-ness was awful too. That embarrassing animation of the rogue kicking a potion etc. at the opponent was just laughable. In fact, I don't think I've ever laughed AT a game so much.

Yeah. My chief complaints about the combat in DA2 are aesthetic. I really hated the over the top anime-style combat moves and bloodsplosions. Replaying the game with the mod that turns off gibbing I realized that there were actually some good ideas (and not so good ideas, the waves being the biggest thing,) in the actual game mechanics. I just didn't notice them over the flying gibs of faceless-mook and Fenris flying up 15 feet into the air to slam his sword down on guys like he's Cloud Strife.

Yeah, they were rotten.

You see, I think it's a very dangerous thing that games are forgiven so much for being better after mod-additions. I play on Xbox and don't have Xbox live, so what I get out the box is all I ever get. A lot of gaming companies seem to have adopted the attitude that if they aren't quite sure of something they'll try it out anyway simply because people will buy it and mod it later.

That for me is dangerous as more casual games like myself don't have any desire to do anything like that it the slightest. And I find it quite ironic that game companies are trying to snag a bigger, more casual audience, yet aren't taking the time to refine their games properly before release. Or even then not following up games with a subsequent, mod-optional boxed version.

Sorry to digress there, I just think it's interesting how much difference mods can make, and think that just because core gamers, game developers and gaming communities are heavily involved with mods certain devs seem to forget that most casual gamers aren't - and some games which we do get are so Beta-like it's unreal.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:02 .

[xkg]

From my POV the entire combat part of DA2 was a huge step backward from Origins.

For somoene who likes more tactical, deep combat mechanics and at least believable combat animations, DA2 combat is real pain. All that has been discussed to death already, I know.

Let's sum up a few things that stands out (at least for me) as particularly atrocious.

1) First the combat speed and animations.

Two handed sword animations, I can't even stress enough how bad it is. Two handed sword being swung with one hand, with such a speed that you would have trouble to do something like that with the kitchen knife. Not to mention warrior wielding it is jumping all over the place in a full armor.
https://www.youtube....qZWxTQ4#t=0m19s

Then, there is a "jumping monkey" rogue. Teleportations, idiotic spin flask kicking and many many more, doing acrobatics like some olympic gymnasts. Olympic high jumpers and basketball players are like a kids in comparison with Hawke
http://www5.picturep.../white-cant.jpg
All that while wearing a chained leather armor - you know it is very flexible, almost same as a leotard (gymnast's costume).
https://www.youtube....F5pbgrA#t=2m15s

And the last one is a mage. Seriously, all this dancing around twirling the stave looks very comical. Hawke should try his luck in "dancing with the stars" show.
https://www.youtube....ntoXbfA#t=2m46s

I won't even touch the subject of expldoing bodies, it is so idiotic there is no need for comments on that.


2) Combat mechanics. This is even worse.

All the clases got strictly separated. Your warrior can no longer wield a dagger or two swords, nor can your rogue use a sword. Warrior with a bow, nope that is a no-no also. There is absolutely no flexibility left in character building. Even spells and abilities are now restricted to specific characters. Can you respec Meriill to be a healer like you could with any mage in DA:O ? Nah, not so much.

Combat difficulty all lies in huge HP pools of your enemies, not in smart AI and class balancing. Your hawke with around 150-200 hp is constanly fighting a group of mooks with thousands of hp each.
http://social.biowar...5193/2#11532174
and a screenshot
http://www2.picturep...us/HP-thugs.jpg

The elemental resistance is another "well thought" mechaincs. For example, suddenly a simple street thug is completly immune to a fire. How ? No clue, maybe there is a firemen's strike in Kirkwall and they all became thugs for a moment.
 
And then, there is this lore breaking teleportation. Of course mages and rougues are worst offenders in this case.
"Vendetta" anyone ?
http://social.biowar...32569/1#8834637
http://social.biowar...index/6745583/1


TL;DR and sum up
So, IMO the slow, more grounded and tactical combat in DAO was superior in every possible way for a party based with tactical-combat gameplay game like Dragon Age.



Oh, and for a few laughs an old screenshot form the Hilarious Images thread.
Bethany is blasting thugs with her spells. Suddenly a templar appears.
- Hey there girl, have you seen any dangerous apostate mages?
- Nope, Sir <trollface>
http://social.biowar...6490/50#7804692

Modifié par xkg, 07 décembre 2012 - 12:09 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

xkg wrote...

From my POV the entire combat part of DA2 was a huge step backward from Origins.

For somoene who likes more tactical, deep combat mechanics and at least believable combat animations, DA2 combat is real pain. All that has been discussed to death already, I know.

Let's sum up a few things that stands out (at least for me) as particularly atrocious.

1) First the combat speed and animations.

Two handed sword animations, I can't even stress enough how bad it is. Two handed sword being swung with one hand, with such a speed that you would have trouble to do something like that with the kitchen knife. Not to mention warrior wielding it is jumping all over the place in a full armor.
https://www.youtube....qZWxTQ4#t=0m19s

Then, there is a "jumping monkey" rogue. Teleportations, idiotic spin flask kicking and many many more, doing acrobatics like some olympic gymnasts. Olympic high jumpers and basketball players are like a kids in comparison with Hawke
http://www5.picturep.../white-cant.jpg
All that while wearing a chained leather armor - you know it is very flexible, almost same as a leotard (gymnast's costume).
https://www.youtube....F5pbgrA#t=2m15s

And the last one is a mage. Seriously, all this dancing around twirling the stave looks very comical. Hawke should try his luck in "dancing with the stars" show.
https://www.youtube....ntoXbfA#t=2m46s

I won't even touch the subject of expldoing bodies, it is so idiotic there is no need for comments on that.


2) Combat mechanics. This is even worse.

All the clases got strictly separated. Your warrior can no longer wield a dagger or two swords, nor can your rogue use a sword. Warrior with a bow, nope that is a no-no also. There is absolutely no flexibility left in character building. Even spells and abilities are now restricted to specific characters. Can you respec Meriill to be a healer like you could with any mage in DA:O ? Nah, not so much.

Combat difficulty all lies in huge HP pools of your enemies, not in smart AI and class balancing. Your hawke with around 150-200 hp is constanly fighting a group of mooks with thousands of hp each.
http://social.biowar...5193/2#11532174
and a screenshot
http://www2.picturep...us/HP-thugs.jpg

The elemental resistance is another "well thought" mechaincs. For example, suddenly a simple street thug is completly immune to a fire. How ? No clue, maybe there is a firemen's strike in Kirkwall and they all became thugs for a moment.
 
And then, there is this lore breaking teleportation. Of course mages and rougues are worst offenders in this case.
"Vendetta" anyone ?
http://social.biowar...32569/1#8834637
http://social.biowar...index/6745583/1


TL;DR and sum up
So, IMO the slow, more grounded and tactical combat in DAO was superior in every possible way for a party based with tactical-combat gameplay game like Dragon Age.



Oh, and for a few laughs an old screenshot form the Hilarious Images thread.
Bethany is blasting thugs with her spells. Suddenly a templar appears.
- Hey there girl, have you seen any dangerous apostate mages?
- Nope, Sir <trollface>
http://social.biowar...6490/50#7804692

Excellent post.

Just watching those videos makes me realize how much of a clusterflush the whole system was - you can barely see what is happening!

How on earth did this combat even make it into the game without anyone listening to those which were saying "wait a sec, not only is this 70's kung-fu style way out of place, it's hard to visually process and isn't one ounce of fun either!"

[Zeta42]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

xkg wrote...

From my POV the entire combat part of DA2 was a huge step backward from Origins.

For somoene who likes more tactical, deep combat mechanics and at least believable combat animations, DA2 combat is real pain. All that has been discussed to death already, I know.

Let's sum up a few things that stands out (at least for me) as particularly atrocious.

1) First the combat speed and animations.

Two handed sword animations, I can't even stress enough how bad it is. Two handed sword being swung with one hand, with such a speed that you would have trouble to do something like that with the kitchen knife. Not to mention warrior wielding it is jumping all over the place in a full armor.
https://www.youtube....qZWxTQ4#t=0m19s

Then, there is a "jumping monkey" rogue. Teleportations, idiotic spin flask kicking and many many more, doing acrobatics like some olympic gymnasts. Olympic high jumpers and basketball players are like a kids in comparison with Hawke
http://www5.picturep.../white-cant.jpg
All that while wearing a chained leather armor - you know it is very flexible, almost same as a leotard (gymnast's costume).
https://www.youtube....F5pbgrA#t=2m15s

And the last one is a mage. Seriously, all this dancing around twirling the stave looks very comical. Hawke should try his luck in "dancing with the stars" show.
https://www.youtube....ntoXbfA#t=2m46s

I won't even touch the subject of expldoing bodies, it is so idiotic there is no need for comments on that.


2) Combat mechanics. This is even worse.

All the clases got strictly separated. Your warrior can no longer wield a dagger or two swords, nor can your rogue use a sword. Warrior with a bow, nope that is a no-no also. There is absolutely no flexibility left in character building. Even spells and abilities are now restricted to specific characters. Can you respec Meriill to be a healer like you could with any mage in DA:O ? Nah, not so much.

Combat difficulty all lies in huge HP pools of your enemies, not in smart AI and class balancing. Your hawke with around 150-200 hp is constanly fighting a group of mooks with thousands of hp each.
http://social.biowar...5193/2#11532174
and a screenshot
http://www2.picturep...us/HP-thugs.jpg

The elemental resistance is another "well thought" mechaincs. For example, suddenly a simple street thug is completly immune to a fire. How ? No clue, maybe there is a firemen's strike in Kirkwall and they all became thugs for a moment.
 
And then, there is this lore breaking teleportation. Of course mages and rougues are worst offenders in this case.
"Vendetta" anyone ?
http://social.biowar...32569/1#8834637
http://social.biowar...index/6745583/1


TL;DR and sum up
So, IMO the slow, more grounded and tactical combat in DAO was superior in every possible way for a party based with tactical-combat gameplay game like Dragon Age.



Oh, and for a few laughs an old screenshot form the Hilarious Images thread.
Bethany is blasting thugs with her spells. Suddenly a templar appears.
- Hey there girl, have you seen any dangerous apostate mages?
- Nope, Sir <trollface>
http://social.biowar...6490/50#7804692

Excellent post.

Just watching those videos makes me realize how much of a clusterflush the whole system was - you can barely see what is happening!

How on earth did this combat even make it into the game without anyone listening to those which were saying "wait a sec, not only is this 70's kung-fu style way out of place, it's hard to visually process and isn't one ounce of fun either!"

A video game is exactly that - a game. It's supposed to be cool. If in order to be cool it has to be a little unrealistic, what's the problem? Next thing you'll be saying that dragons can't fly because of their massive and heavy bodies. Oh wait, dragons don't exist at all.

[SpunkyMonkey]

Zeta42 wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

xkg wrote...

From my POV the entire combat part of DA2 was a huge step backward from Origins.

For somoene who likes more tactical, deep combat mechanics and at least believable combat animations, DA2 combat is real pain. All that has been discussed to death already, I know.

Let's sum up a few things that stands out (at least for me) as particularly atrocious.

1) First the combat speed and animations.

Two handed sword animations, I can't even stress enough how bad it is. Two handed sword being swung with one hand, with such a speed that you would have trouble to do something like that with the kitchen knife. Not to mention warrior wielding it is jumping all over the place in a full armor.
https://www.youtube....qZWxTQ4#t=0m19s

Then, there is a "jumping monkey" rogue. Teleportations, idiotic spin flask kicking and many many more, doing acrobatics like some olympic gymnasts. Olympic high jumpers and basketball players are like a kids in comparison with Hawke
http://www5.picturep.../white-cant.jpg
All that while wearing a chained leather armor - you know it is very flexible, almost same as a leotard (gymnast's costume).
https://www.youtube....F5pbgrA#t=2m15s

And the last one is a mage. Seriously, all this dancing around twirling the stave looks very comical. Hawke should try his luck in "dancing with the stars" show.
https://www.youtube....ntoXbfA#t=2m46s

I won't even touch the subject of expldoing bodies, it is so idiotic there is no need for comments on that.


2) Combat mechanics. This is even worse.

All the clases got strictly separated. Your warrior can no longer wield a dagger or two swords, nor can your rogue use a sword. Warrior with a bow, nope that is a no-no also. There is absolutely no flexibility left in character building. Even spells and abilities are now restricted to specific characters. Can you respec Meriill to be a healer like you could with any mage in DA:O ? Nah, not so much.

Combat difficulty all lies in huge HP pools of your enemies, not in smart AI and class balancing. Your hawke with around 150-200 hp is constanly fighting a group of mooks with thousands of hp each.
http://social.biowar...5193/2#11532174
and a screenshot
http://www2.picturep...us/HP-thugs.jpg

The elemental resistance is another "well thought" mechaincs. For example, suddenly a simple street thug is completly immune to a fire. How ? No clue, maybe there is a firemen's strike in Kirkwall and they all became thugs for a moment.
 
And then, there is this lore breaking teleportation. Of course mages and rougues are worst offenders in this case.
"Vendetta" anyone ?
http://social.biowar...32569/1#8834637
http://social.biowar...index/6745583/1


TL;DR and sum up
So, IMO the slow, more grounded and tactical combat in DAO was superior in every possible way for a party based with tactical-combat gameplay game like Dragon Age.



Oh, and for a few laughs an old screenshot form the Hilarious Images thread.
Bethany is blasting thugs with her spells. Suddenly a templar appears.
- Hey there girl, have you seen any dangerous apostate mages?
- Nope, Sir <trollface>
http://social.biowar...6490/50#7804692

Excellent post.

Just watching those videos makes me realize how much of a clusterflush the whole system was - you can barely see what is happening!

How on earth did this combat even make it into the game without anyone listening to those which were saying "wait a sec, not only is this 70's kung-fu style way out of place, it's hard to visually process and isn't one ounce of fun either!"

A video game is exactly that - a game. It's supposed to be cool. If in order to be cool it has to be a little unrealistic, what's the problem? Next thing you'll be saying that dragons can't fly because of their massive and heavy bodies. Oh wait, dragons don't exist at all.

No problem if it's done right and fits in context with the game.

DA:2's combat wasn't done right, at all, and stuck out like a sore thumb in a FRPG environment.

There's a reason why you don't see many Bruce Lee films with actual dragons starring in them despite their title - mythical beasts don't belong in Asian dojos, just like their fighting styles shouldn't be the foundation for FRPG combat.

Modifié par SpunkyMonkey, 07 décembre 2012 - 01:02 .