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[Conduit0]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Does the Chant of Light-- the word of the Maker-- support Corypheus' claims that the Golden City was black when the Magisters arrived? In analysis of the Chant, I think it does. First, we must define what the "golden light" and "blackness" are. 

Corypheus says the Magisters sought the golden light, "The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the Gods themselves." So, the golden light is a tangible divine power, not only a metaphorical light or good.

And what does the Chant of Light say about the golden light? Threnodies: 5:1-5:8 says, "The children of the Maker gathered Before his golden throne And sang hymns of praise unending. But their songs Were the songs of the cobblestones. They shone with the golden light Reflected from the Maker's throne." Is song a divine power? I think so. And if the Old Gods could sing, were they once divine, or are they by nature, divine beings? I think so. The Dissonant verse, Silence 3:6 supports they were the Maker's first children, "The Old Gods will call to you, From their ancient prisons they will sing. Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts, On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight, The first of My children, lost to night."

A few things to note in addition:

The Call of the Old Gods is described as a powerful song sung by the Old Gods -- which you note. But in addition, Dwarves say that lyrium sings to them and Bartrand remarks on how he "wants to hear the Song" again -- a Song that the Lyrium Idol caused.

So I'd like to echo my belief I've stated a few times elsewhere that the Old Gods, the Lyrium Idol, lyrium in general, the Primeval Thaig, and the "Golden" City are linked to the Darkspawn in some way. After all, the Dwarves were the first ones to find the Darkspawn and they were "creatures in their own likeness". And the Magisters like Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn -- the first, in fact -- and are unable to hear the Call of the Old Gods.

That isn't even touching how you can hear the same whispering noise from the Warden Joining, the Reaver Joining, the Darkspawn's march from the Korcari Wilds, and the lyrium idol. Exactly the same noise all the time.

Then you have Andraste's singing, which in my mind is due to her being an OGB Mage. I like to think she was a Somniari Blood Mage OGB. Considering Glandivalis was imbued with blood magic properties and the statues of Andraste in The Gauntlet -- built by the people that knew her -- have her wielding fire in her hand, I'd say I'm right. 

One might even conjecture that Leliana is Andraste reborn. Or just the next Andraste, and the Maker's making a harem. 

Oh, and Calenhad is the OGB of Andoral considering Calenhad was born in the exact year that the Archdemon of the Fourth Blight was slain and the blood of Calenhad can awaken Dragons. So Alistair is descended from an OGB.

However, David Gaider has said in the past that the Old Gods were neither Creators nor were they Created. That they exist outside of the Maker's plan.

Corypheus says the Magister sought the power of the gods in the Golden City, but claims the city was black when they arrived. "But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

So, what does the Chant of Light say about blackness? It describes it as the greatest of evil. So, what is the greatest of evil? Vanity. Who were the most vain? The Old Gods and the ancient Magisters. Who was the leader of those two groups? Dumat. And what is Dumat? The dragon of Silence. So, can silence be evil? Yes. It's certainly the opposite of song. But, is it always evil? No, not if you believe the Maker created both Silence and Dumat.

He didn't create Dumat, or the other Old Gods, according to DG.

So, why was the Golden City black? Well, does silence manifest as blackness? I think so. Threnodies describes the Magisters entrance into Heaven, "Above them, a river of Light, Before them the throne of Heaven, waiting, Beneath their feet The footprints of the Maker, And all around them echoed a vast Silence. But when they took a single step Toward the empty throne A great voice cried out Shaking the very foundations Of Heaven and earth: And So is the Golden City blackened With each step you take in my Hall. Marvel at perfection, for it is fleeting. You have brought Sin to Heaven And doom upon all the world". From this analysis, Corypheus was right. When the Magisters invaded Heaven, they encountered blackness, but he described it as corrupt because he only knows of blackness through the Old Gods-- the most wicked-- and not through the Maker. He did not realize that simply, in the absence of golden light --song-- there is blackness-- silence.

So, blackness is not only a metaphor for evil and vanity, I think silence also manifests tangibly as blackness. The Golden City was not corrupt before the arrival of the Magisters, but it was black.

I think it was corrupted before their arrival, but their arrival added fuel to the corruption's fire.

There can't be other OGBs. When a Warden slay's an Archdemon it's soul immediately attempts to jump into the nearest tainted creature, which happens to be the Warden, and since two souls can't occupy the same body, both are destroyed outright, which is why the warden delivering the final blow always dies in the process.

When the dark ritual is used, the Archdemon's soul is drawn away to a different vessel, which is why the Warden survives, and since there is no mention of a Grey Warden ever surviving delivering the killing blow to an Archdemon in the past, and it would be a pretty big deal if it had happened before, it is safe to assume that the dark ritual has never been used(successfully) before.

[TEWR]

There can't be other OGBs. When a Warden slay's an Archdemon it's soul immediately attempts to jump into the nearest tainted creature, which happens to be the Warden, and since two souls can't occupy the same body, both are destroyed outright, which is why the warden delivering the final blow always dies in the process.

And how would Flemeth know how to make them if it hadn't been done before? Not to mention the events of the Alistair comics say the Calenhad bloodline is special because it can awaken Dragons. And Calenhad was born in the same year Andoral was slain.

It seems pretty clear to me that they're making the Calenhad bloodline the result of him being an OGB.

Or, Andraste was an OGB and Calenhad's descended from her.

When the dark ritual is used, the Archdemon's soul is drawn away to a different vessel, which is why the Warden survives, and since there is no mention of a Grey Warden ever surviving delivering the killing blow to an Archdemon in the past, and it would be a pretty big deal if it had happened before, it is safe to assume that the dark ritual has never been used(successfully) before.

Garahel was launched miles across the battlefield due to the Archdemon's death throes.

It was not until much later that I heard his body had been retrieved, flung to the far side of the battlefield by the Archdemon's death throes. My friend, this elf who helped us unite the lands and cleanse Thedas of the darkspawn scourge will always be remembered. I swear it.

So, since no one would be able to survive that, Calenhad being an OGB works. Garahel slew the Archdemon and as far as anyone would know, he died due to the soul clash. It's not like they can perform an autopsy on Garahel and find out his soul and Andoral's clashed.

Facts regarding the Fourth Blight/Blights in general:

1) Garahel slew Andoral in single combat.
2) Andoral's death throes launched Garahel across the entire battlefield -- something no one could survive.
3) Calenhad was born in the same year Andoral was slain. 5:20
4) The Calenhad bloodline has the ability to awaken Dragons.
5) The Old Gods were theorized to simply be incredibly powerful High Dragons by Thedosian scholars. Logically, we could assume that the Old Gods are the Kings of Dragons.

A lot of people like to think that Wardens are these impossible-to-kill soldiers in Blights, while ignoring that all soldiers can be killed from wartime injuries. And that the "Archdemon-Warden soul clash" is hardly the only conceivable way a Warden could die.

[Conduit0]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There can't be other OGBs. When a Warden slay's an Archdemon it's soul immediately attempts to jump into the nearest tainted creature, which happens to be the Warden, and since two souls can't occupy the same body, both are destroyed outright, which is why the warden delivering the final blow always dies in the process.

And how would Flemeth know how to make them if it hadn't been done before? Not to mention the events of the Alistair comics say the Calenhad bloodline is special because it can awaken Dragons. And Calenhad was born in the same year Andoral was slain.

It seems pretty clear to me that they're making the Calenhad bloodline the result of him being an OGB.

Or, Andraste was an OGB and Calenhad's descended from her.

When the dark ritual is used, the Archdemon's soul is drawn away to a different vessel, which is why the Warden survives, and since there is no mention of a Grey Warden ever surviving delivering the killing blow to an Archdemon in the past, and it would be a pretty big deal if it had happened before, it is safe to assume that the dark ritual has never been used(successfully) before.

Garahel was launched miles across the battlefield due to the Archdemon's death throes.

It was not until much later that I heard his body had been retrieved, flung to the far side of the battlefield by the Archdemon's death throes. My friend, this elf who helped us unite the lands and cleanse Thedas of the darkspawn scourge will always be remembered. I swear it.

So, since no one would be able to survive that, Calenhad being an OGB works. Garahel slew the Archdemon and as far as anyone would know, he died due to the soul clash. It's not like they can perform an autopsy on Garahel and find out his soul and Andoral's clashed.

Facts regarding the Fourth Blight/Blights in general:

1) Garahel slew Andoral in single combat.
2) Andoral's death throes launched Garahel across the entire battlefield -- something no one could survive.
3) Calenhad was born in the same year Andoral was slain. 5:20
4) The Calenhad bloodline has the ability to awaken Dragons.
5) The Old Gods were theorized to simply be incredibly powerful High Dragons by Thedosian scholars. Logically, we could assume that the Old Gods are the Kings of Dragons.

A lot of people like to think that Wardens are these impossible-to-kill soldiers in Blights, while ignoring that all soldiers can be killed from wartime injuries. And that the "Archdemon-Warden soul clash" is hardly the only conceivable way a Warden could die.

Being special doesn't automaticly make Calenhad an OGB, you're basing a massive assumption on a single unique trait.

As for how did Flemeth know about the dark ritual, who says the spell was specificly meant to make an OGB? It may well have been a spell she created or learned, to allow her self to be reincarnated, as we see her do in DA2. Its possible that Morrigan simply realized she could use the spell to draw in any soul to be reincarnated and chose to use it on the Archdemon, either out of a desire to save the Warden from certain death, or believing that having an Old God on her side would give her an advantage against Flemeth.

[Uccio]

Gilbert Salarian wrote...

Briefly touching on the concept of the power of song, that idea has been bandied about for millenia; it's also the basis for the creation in The Chronicles of Narnia and also the Silmarillion.  The Silmarillion, though, altered from the Chant of Light in that harmony/dissonance were in opposition instead of song/silence as the OP hypothesized.  Still, excellent points made.

Off Topic: Tolkien took a lot of out from Kalevala, finnish mythology where singing was the ultimate form of magic. 

[DarkSpiral]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Facts regarding the Fourth Blight/Blights in general:

1) Garahel slew Andoral in single combat.
2) Andoral's death throes launched Garahel across the entire battlefield -- something no one could survive.
3) Calenhad was born in the same year Andoral was slain. 5:20
4) The Calenhad bloodline has the ability to awaken Dragons.
5) The Old Gods were theorized to simply be incredibly powerful High Dragons by Thedosian scholars. Logically, we could assume that the Old Gods are the Kings of Dragons.

Thedas' scholars also theorize that the Fifth Blight wasn't a Blight at all.  They're wrong.  The Old Gods could also be ancient spirits of the Fade that possessed High Dragons.  I mean, if you wanted a powerful body, just it get better than a High Dragon?

Don't get me wrong, its an interesting theory, Redux.  I just have to agree that you're making a fairly large leap in logic that Flemeth's ritual must be the source of the significane of the blood of Calenhad.  It could just as easily be that Calenhad's bloodline is to Thedas the Dunedain (I'm probably spelling that wrong) were to Middle Earth.

Yes, for any of you that know, I'm quite aware of the fact the Dunedain were special because of elven blood in their history.  That isn't my point.  Elves don't occupy the same plac ein thedas as they do in tolkien's workl. by a long shot.

So, how Calenhad's bloodline was elevated above the rest of men is the point, and we don't know the answer.  Seems to have something to do with Dragons, but that by itself doesn't have any connection to the OGB.  The Arishock (previously known as Sten) was gearing up to try and explain to Alistair why Titus is so interested in his blood.  Perhaps we'll have more clarity on the subject after that.

[lil yonce]

iakus wrote...

I think there's more to the story of why the Maker left than the Chantry knows. The city already being Blackened indicates that the magisters, it seems, were not to blame. It also implies that it was not the Maker's curse that created the first darkspawn.

I think the Maker was present in the Golden City upon the Magisters arrival as the "river of light" above them in Threnodies: 8:3.

Did the Dread Wolf take them?

I think Flemeth is Fen'Harel.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So I'd like to echo my belief I've stated a few times elsewhere that the Old Gods, the Lyrium Idol, lyrium in general, the Primeval Thaig, and the "Golden" City are linked to the Darkspawn in some way. After all, the Dwarves were the first ones to find the Darkspawn and they were "creatures in their own likeness". And the Magisters like Corypheus are Awakened Darkspawn -- the first, in fact -- and are unable to hear the Call of the Old Gods.

I don't think the darkspawn are literally creatures in the likeness of the dwarves. Not all of them look like dwarves in DA:O. I think they are creatures in their likeness as in they're shells of mankind. I do believe the Primeval thaig is evil-- the Profane being demons that have inhabited stone and the Lyrium Idol is cursed.

That isn't even touching how you can hear the same whispering noise from the Warden Joining, the Reaver Joining, the Darkspawn's march from the Korcari Wilds, and the lyrium idol. Exactly the same noise all the time.

The constant sound is due to drinking tainted blood or becoming a reaver means introducing evil into the body. The individuals who survive the rituals aren't just hearing the song of the Old Gods in their sleep as normal individuals would when exposed to them in dreams, they hear it constantly because evil is now part of their being. That doesn't corrupt them or make them evil, in fact, they're strong against evil because they can withstand it and use it to fight the Blight-- Grey Wardens, not Reavers. Reavers were willingly taught their knowledge by demons and that has nothing to do with strength. And the Lyrium Idol is definitely cursed. The darkspawn are also evil ultimately originating with the Old Gods. The sound should be the same in each situation if it all begins with the Old Gods.

Then you have Andraste's singing, which in my mind is due to her being an OGB Mage. I like to think she was a Somniari Blood Mage OGB. Considering Glandivalis was imbued with blood magic properties and the statues of Andraste in The Gauntlet -- built by the people that knew her -- have her wielding fire in her hand, I'd say I'm right.

I think Andraste was an OGB as well because her voice is so divine. But I don't know that she was a blood mage. I won't say blood magic is always bad because if the Old Gods did not create magic of any kind, they were taught or gifted it by its creator, and if the Maker is their creator, blood magic is not inherently evil-- just as silence and blackness are not inherently evil. I don't know that she was a blood mage, but its possible. Sincerely in the Maker's name, the use of blood magic would not make her evil. It would simply be another tool.

One might even conjecture that Leliana is Andraste reborn. Or just the next Andraste, and the Maker's making a harem.

I don't think Leliana is Andraste reborn or that the Maker is making a harem. He didn't offer to raise Leliana to His side as His bride, He just gave her a sign, direction when he spoke to her. Her voice is nice, but it is not comparable to Andraste's-- nowhere near as divine.

Side Note-- Bards, the greatest singers of the time, passing down legend and important events through song, makes sense if the Maker so highly values song. The greatest voice, Andraste's, passed down the epic poem the Chant of Light. The Divine raising Leliana to her side fits as well. She was a hero of the fifth blight and has written and sung about the Hero of Ferelden.

Oh, and Calenhad is the OGB of Andoral considering Calenhad was born in the exact year that the Archdemon of the Fourth Blight was slain and the blood of Calenhad can awaken Dragons. So Alistair is descended from an OGB.

That's interesting, if Garhel did not die from killing the Archdemon, its possible. And supposedly Andraste had Sons and descendents that were not recognized by the Chantry.

I think it was corrupted before their arrival, but their arrival added fuel to the corruption's fire.

Why do you think that?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:28 .

[KingGunDragon]

according to the keeper of the ashes of Andraste Leliana didnt hear the maker. He saids she made it up. Even going as far as to ask why she lies

[TuringPoint]

You didn't mention it, but I was thinking about how people describe lyrium as singing to them.

There is also a possible connection that where there existed light and music in the golden city, where men walked that music could no longer exist. Like the sounds of nature in the fade, where men tread they bring destruction or corruption even as they shape things to their will.  There is also a striking similarity to how th presence of Men changed the elves.

As for the keeper, he was testing those who would enter.  He was testing Leliana's faith, her reaction.  She didn't change her belief as a result of this.

Modifié par Alocormin, 08 décembre 2012 - 06:07 .

[lil yonce]

Alocormin wrote...

You didn't mention it, but I was thinking about how people describe lyrium as singing to them.

I think that's only primeval lyrium, and I think its cursed or corrupted.

There is also a possible connection that where there existed light and music in the golden city, where men walked that music could no longer exist. Like the sounds of nature in the fade, where men tread they bring destruction or corruption even as they shape things to their will. There is also a striking similarity to how the presence of Men changed the elves.

This implies that men are inherently evil, but if the Maker created them, they cannot be.

As for the keeper, he was testing those who would enter.  He was testing Leliana's faith, her reaction.  She didn't change her belief as a result of this.

I think this is correct.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 décembre 2012 - 05:04 .

[zambingo]

Good. What is it? Theologically Good and Evil can be classed as simply everything that is from a God and everything that isn't from a God.

Whatever the Maker does is Good.
Whatever is done outside of the and/or against the Maker's will is Evil.

Man, among all things as well, is created by the Maker. This is Good.
Man and/or other things revolt against the Maker's will. This is Evil.

Man's actions can be Evil, but Man can still be created from Good and with the purpose of being Good.

How can something created from Good and to be Good become Evil? Free Will. Theologically you're given Free Will to choose to stay Good. You need Free Will, otherwise you're just a puppet.

In the real world understanding what is the will of a God (whichever/whatever you believe in) is of course extremely difficult and prone to great debate. In a fictional setting where direct contact with a God can be seen and acknowledged it's "child's play" to deduce what is Good or Evil. eg. In Star Wars the Force talks to Jedi, letting them know the Will of the Force, so they have direct contact... they can deduce what is necessary.

In the real world outside of Theology we are constrained to intellectual concepts of Good and Evil. We calculate the values of Good and Evil by viewing what is Good [for] our society and the individual. As such we [create] laws to impose these ideals and maintain order, power etc. But this last is besides the point to Theological Good and Evil.

Edit: Typo/word substitution.

Modifié par zambingo, 09 décembre 2012 - 07:18 .

[lil yonce]

zambingo wrote...

Good. What is it? Theologically Good and Evil can be classed as simply everything that is from a God and everything that isn't from a God.

A just and righteous creator would not create evil.

[zambingo]

Good thing then that The Maker did not create Evil.

Afterthought: Or are you a "Spoons made me Fat" rationalist?

Modifié par zambingo, 09 décembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[lil yonce]

zambingo wrote...

Afterthought: Or are you a "Spoons made me Fat" rationalist?

What do you mean?

[zambingo]

You propose that The Maker cannot be Good or Just because Evil exists.

So, theoretically... as I don't know you, are you fat because spoons exist?

[lil yonce]

zambingo wrote...

You propose that The Maker cannot be Good or Just because Evil exists. So, theoretically... as I don't know you, are you fat because spoons exist?

No, the Maker is good, just, and righteous. Evil was created by the Old Gods and man in the first sin. I was simply agreeing with, echoing you.

EDIT: Found something interesting. Don't want to make a separate post. In this Q&A at 16:21, David Gaider responds to the question of the Black City being black. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 décembre 2012 - 09:20 .