19 réponses à ce sujet

[Jzadek72]

 I've been thinking a lot about what made DA:O's and to a lesser extent Mass Effect's dialogue click for me in a way that Dragon Age 2 didn't, and I don't think it's something which is rooted deeply in the system - I have no problem per se with the voiced protagonist. It's just that the categorization of options is so rigid that it meant we had no room to give Hawke meaningful characterisation.

Those little prompts at the bottom can be useful, don't get me wrong, but they're too inflexible sometimes. You either are nice, sarcastic or angry, and occasionally flirtatious or asking questions. There's very little room for experimentation.
This suffered most in terms of just having a conversation. In Dragon Age Origins, one of my favourite moments was a conversation with Leliana about mysticism. It was great because we were picking an earnest option, rather than a clear-cut response. In Dragon Age 2 the responses would have probably just been agreement, a sarcastic comment about it or straight up calling her stupid. In this case, the system just straight up wouldn't work. However, it's a) not enough to ditch it and doing so would not be a realistic request anyway.

Rather than that, why don't we have a new dialogue icon - a neutral response which isn't going to be constrained by personality or tone, but just gives a little extra to our character. Perhaps we can choose their religious beliefs, their opinion on the politics, or smaller, more personal things - do we agree with a companion's choice of drink, for instance. Basically, dialogue that transcends the system - a sort of miscellaneous option. I felt like these were sorely lacking in DAII, which was probably the reason I couldn't get attached to my Hawke in the same way. In the end, angry and rude or diplomatic and kind are just archetypes. Archetypes are fine, but they need something extra to become a true character. Give us the ability to choose these extra quirks, and the character will become ours.

[iOnlySignIn]

In other words, bigger dialogue trees.

It probably didn't help that the VAs for DA2 were asked to perform the 3 different personalities as 3 distinct characters. Switching between them is schizophrenic.

Unlike in Mass Effect, where switching between Renegade and Paragon seems more or less natural. But the price for this natural transition is the common accusation of Shepard's VAs (Meer AND Hale) being emotionless and bland.

Personally, I prefer a more serene and ambiguous character, the way I play my Shepard (55%~65% Paragon).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 08 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Jzadek72]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

In other words, bigger dialogue trees.

It probably didn't help that the VAs for DA2 were asked to perform the 3 different personalities as 3 distinct characters. Switching between them is schizophrenic.

Unlike in Mass Effect, where switching between Renegade and Paragon seems more or less natural. But the price for this natural transition is the common accusation of Shepard's VAs (Meer AND Hale) being emotionless and bland.

Personally, I prefer a more serene and ambiguous character, the way I play my Shepard (55%~65% Paragon).

Not necessarily bigger trees, just don't feel the need to make every exchange aggressive/diplomatic/sarcastic - they should be tools to make the game better, rather than limit it, and not every dialogue needs them shoehorned in.

[sea-]

How about no voiced protagonist, no voice-every-line crap that adds millions of dollars to the game budget, no "icon" system for morons who can't read, and dialogue lines that are longer than 200 characters?

[Wulfram]

They can use the choice icon, rather than the tone icon, when they don't want their options to be tone based. You get this some times in DA2 IIRC, when people are asking your opinion on something.

[TheDon81]

sea- wrote...

How about no voiced protagonist, no voice-every-line crap that adds millions of dollars to the game budget, no "icon" system for morons who can't read, and dialogue lines that are longer than 200 characters?

This.

It's cheaper and better.
You can save huge ammount of $ AND get a better game... It's common sense.

[Jzadek72]

TheDon81 wrote...

sea- wrote...

How about no voiced protagonist, no voice-every-line crap that adds millions of dollars to the game budget, no "icon" system for morons who can't read, and dialogue lines that are longer than 200 characters?

This.

It's cheaper and better.
You can save huge ammount of $ AND get a better game... It's common sense.

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell. Like it or not, we just have to move on - we're getting a voiced protagonist, so we might as well suggest improvements to the format. 

[TheDon81]

Jzadek72 wrote...

TheDon81 wrote...

sea- wrote...

How about no voiced protagonist, no voice-every-line crap that adds millions of dollars to the game budget, no "icon" system for morons who can't read, and dialogue lines that are longer than 200 characters?

This.

It's cheaper and better.
You can save huge ammount of $ AND get a better game... It's common sense.

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell. Like it or not, we just have to move on - we're getting a voiced protagonist, so we might as well suggest improvements to the format. 

I think you are wrong with that statement.
People who can't get into the game, because of a silent protagonist, doesn't actually care so much about the RP in the G.

The casual crowd will perhaps like the demo better with the voiced character, but still not buy the game. My casual gaming friends tried the DA2 demo, and found it "weird and boring". Too many stats and numbers, according to them.

RPGs are for people familiar to it, or people really willing to try something new. VA, is not the deciding factor for it.

Perhaps it is for Shooter RPGs(if you can call it a RPG) like Mass Effect, where shooting actually attracts the casual crowd.

The majority of the people buying DA2, is definitely RPGers.

[Wulfram]

Jzadek72 wrote...

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell.

Skyrim sold, and it's PC had no voice.  DA:O sold, and it's PC had no voice.

Bioware clearly think voiced PC is better, and aren't going to change it any time soon.  But I don't see any real evidence that a voiced protagonist is necessary for the game to sell.

Modifié par Wulfram, 09 décembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[TheDon81]

Wulfram wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell.

Skyrim sold, and it's PC had no voice.  DA:O sold, and it's PC had no voice.

Bioware clearly think voiced PC is better, and aren't going to change it any time soon.  But I don't see any real evidence that a voiced protagonist is necessary for the game to sell.

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

[Jzadek72]

Well, I'd really like to believe you, but either way, it's not what Bioware or EA are doing. I'd love to have the unvoiced protagonist back, but I just don't see it happening now. Maybe for DA4, but I, unfortunately, doubt it.

[In Exile]

TheDon81 wrote...

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

/rant

Whoo! Nonsense speculation. I can play that game too! VO did make DA2 sell. DA:A tanked badly (500,000 copies) obviously demonstrating that PC VO doesn't sell (since obviously everyone bought DA:O thinking it would like either Morrowind or ME) and then DA:A failed, but luckly PC VO was around to save DA2 from this horrid fate of silent PC!! 

This is all tongue-in-cheek, obviously, but all of this talk about sales, as if there is one overpowering feature that makes anyone care at all about a game, is just plain silly.

/rant

[Plaintiff]

TheDon81 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell.

Skyrim sold, and it's PC had no voice.  DA:O sold, and it's PC had no voice.

Bioware clearly think voiced PC is better, and aren't going to change it any time soon.  But I don't see any real evidence that a voiced protagonist is necessary for the game to sell.

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

Voice acting is not a factor in sales. The two features are irrelevent. Your conclusion is nonsense.

[Pelle6666]

I thought it was just that the dialog was pretty crap. I mean, some of the lines were just awkwardly bad and it didn't help that the voice of Hawk was... less than brilliant... If they put more effort into the actual dialog and adopt the Mass effect 2 dialog system completely we will not have any more problems with this.

[TheDon81]

Plaintiff wrote...

TheDon81 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell.

Skyrim sold, and it's PC had no voice.  DA:O sold, and it's PC had no voice.

Bioware clearly think voiced PC is better, and aren't going to change it any time soon.  But I don't see any real evidence that a voiced protagonist is necessary for the game to sell.

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

Voice acting is not a factor in sales. The two features are irrelevent. Your conclusion is nonsense.

That's what we are trying to say... you missed the point completely! :innocent:

[TheDon81]

In Exile wrote...

TheDon81 wrote...

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

/rant

Whoo! Nonsense speculation. I can play that game too! VO did make DA2 sell. DA:A tanked badly (500,000 copies) obviously demonstrating that PC VO doesn't sell (since obviously everyone bought DA:O thinking it would like either Morrowind or ME) and then DA:A failed, but luckly PC VO was around to save DA2 from this horrid fate of silent PC!! 

This is all tongue-in-cheek, obviously, but all of this talk about sales, as if there is one overpowering feature that makes anyone care at all about a game, is just plain silly.

/rant

You missed the point as well...
I tried to answer the post that said "voiceless PC doesn't sell..."
It's not about voiceless selling more than voiced, but about that voiced PC doesn't matter to the overall sale and reception of a game.
People won't ditch the game because of PC lacking a voice.  It's time and money wasted to think that, IMO. Casual gamers (who don't care so much for games) usually don't play RPG's anyway!

[PsychoBlonde]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

It probably didn't help that the VAs for DA2 were asked to perform the 3 different personalities as 3 distinct characters. Switching between them is schizophrenic.

Heck, doing an Investigate option and then picking a red tone feels schizophrenic, because (particularly with female Hawke), the investigates are all delivered in this nice, even, mild tone, and then GRR ANGRY I'M ANGRY!  It was even worse when you went from GRR ANGRY to "tell me more about these ruins, please".

Jarring.  The writing and voiceover needs an editing pass where they compare every. conceivable. option. that could precede or follow that option and either make sure there isn't a radical difference in tone, or if there is (which could be entertaining, sure), the NPC response is along the lines of "dude, you crazy!" instead of "yeah, about those ruins . . ."

That, or they could just make an effort to write out the Investigate options altogether.  They're not necessary and they screw with conversation flow bigtime.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:23 .

[Plaintiff]

TheDon81 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TheDon81 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Jzadek72 wrote...

It's ideal, but it doesn't sell.

Skyrim sold, and it's PC had no voice.  DA:O sold, and it's PC had no voice.

Bioware clearly think voiced PC is better, and aren't going to change it any time soon.  But I don't see any real evidence that a voiced protagonist is necessary for the game to sell.

Thank you, for making a better point than me!

If voiced PC sold, DA2 would've sold more than DA:O... It got good reviews, ergo casual would have bought it..
That further proves that casuals who cares about  voiced protagonists, don't care about RPG's.

Voice acting is not a factor in sales. The two features are irrelevent. Your conclusion is nonsense.

That's what we are trying to say... you missed the point completely! :innocent:

No, you misunderstand completely.

I bolded and underlined your conclusion, which is the part that is nonsense.

[TheDon81]

Ugh... I don't wanna start the "I'm right, no I'm right" thing now.

My point was that whoever cares about a voiced PC enough to buy/not buy the game, most likely doesn't care for RPG in general.

Ergo, trying to force a voiced PC for the price of quantity and quality(variety) in dialogue, is a silly thing.