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[Sylvianus]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
 a big world that feels alive,

I've never understood this praise of Skyrim. It feels deader than doorknob. There's no meaningful social interaction in that world whatsover. Everyone is a bot - roaming around, not doing very much of anything beyond their set routine, with very limited scope to their interaction with you.

TW2 felt like it had a living world that you were part of - because it felt like characters had lives. Skyrim (and TES games in general) feel like I've been transported to a world where machines won against organics, and they were not very well made machines.

I don't understand here. In which game it isn't the case ?  ( In all the games, people are romaming around with even more limits, and often worse, they stay static like in Dragon age. ) ( I still need to see in another game people, some travelers or guards, crossing all the country on the roads lol. )  And the set routine is already a lot huh, ( in other games, at best you only see the bots walking or staying at the same place.... they don't eat in the tavern, they don't have any discussion somewhere else with another random npc, they don't have any house and just disappear at night or staying at the same place as if it didn't happen, don't go to bed, they don't do other things, they don't even react to the player's actions, you can't kill them, you can't be a criminal with many npcs trying to kill you, etc ) and the interaction with the npcs is already a thousand time better than DA2 where you can walk around into the city and talk to no one except the characters for the side quests and the main quest... ( and there are many many many side quests in Skyrim, so many people concerned in each city ) In Assassin's creed, which I love too, it's the same even if it is also really good in this area. Maybe you don't care but that's definitely a part of what constitutes a living word.

So which game has a better world reactivity than Skyrim ? Don't you think that's quite normal if many people felt the world of Skyrim alive compared to what we see today ?  I've never seen a game that did so much work in this area. So yeah, I think the praise is well desserved. And in the witcher 2 it felt maybe more alive " to you ", but I don't see where it would be better, except the focus for the characters and a strong story. I played this game, I wasn't impressed like I was with Skyrim the first time, even if it's beautiful.

Many People have a normal life in the game, you don't need to know much how boring and normal their life is. In real life, you don't know everything about everyone. In Skyrim, you can interact with them, with absolutely everyone, ( learning many things at the same time ) despite they aren't concerned by a side quest, or totally meaningless in the story, and that is quite something. In the witcher 2, you can't even talk to many people who are just there to be there like in Dragon age 2...

When I look to the other games, I don't see where there's something that feels more alive than this world. Here also some quotes to tell what I meant.

It feels alive , cities feels alive , pnj walk around , go to bed , eat etc...
Random dragon attack...
A lot of object are interactive , even if you can't do much it's nice.

Lord Aesir wrote...
I mean, say what you want about characters, but Skyrim was my first Elder Scrolls game and I found it a joy to simply explore the beautiful world they made. One minute I'm wandering through a blizzard on a mountainside, no clear idea where I'm going, then the sky clears and I see an aurora in the night sky and ancient ruins silhouetted against the stars, the ambient music: It was awesome. Lost some of the novelty after the first dozen hours or so, but if Bioware could work some of that effect into their art style it would be great.

Day night, - weather impact, world reactivity, non static npcs, etc etc. It's all I am talking about a world that feels alive. Look to Dragon age, and  see Skyrim after. That's quite obvious even if Skyrim isn't focused on the characters.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[PaulSX]

FaWa wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

if they can accomplish this, there is a good chance that DA franchise might finally become the real spiritual successor of BG.

Baldurs gate had race options (More than DAO) and a detailed combat system. Neither of those things will be present in DA3. 

you guys focused too much on those superficial things like race options and combat stuff. What made BG that great is the sand box style exploration and random quests you encounter during the un-guided adventure. for a long time, BioWare always follows the style of Torment and Kotor, it's time for BioWare to look at the old-school RPG design concepts which Bethesda has been doing for almost 20 years and put more work on atmosphere and exploration.

edit: race options is really the least thing BioWare should care. just look at the first witcher game. it caught the soul of Baldur's Gate with a fixed character. 

Modifié par suntzuxi, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

suntzuxi wrote...

edit: race options is really the least thing BioWare should care. just look at the first witcher game. it caught the soul of Baldur's Gate with a fixed character. 

This is true, but also potentially a problem.  I sympathize with the folks who had trouble connecting with Hawke and Shepard because I had the same problem with Witcher 1 and 2.  I should love everything about those games, but Geralt is just not a protagonist I like, and it makes the game unplayable.

PS:T IMO did a better job of splitting the difference between a more set protagonist and a player-customized one.

[Celene II]

Having an entire party of people in a skyrim setting would get annoying very quickly.

Skyrim is great for exploration, sandbox fun, but its story was second to its vistas and its randomness.

I love that first paragraph on that review/preview.

Truer words have never been spoken about a video game then

"Unfortunately, the developers changed direction for the second game, Dragon Age II, and many of the franchises' fans turned away, unhappy with the over-simplification of mechanics they had enjoyed in the first game, which many theorize was a move designed to appeal to the more casual audience of the gaming console market, where the first game did not sell as well."

[Rawgrim]

suntzuxi wrote...

FaWa wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

if they can accomplish this, there is a good chance that DA franchise might finally become the real spiritual successor of BG.

Baldurs gate had race options (More than DAO) and a detailed combat system. Neither of those things will be present in DA3. 

you guys focused too much on those superficial things like race options and combat stuff. What made BG that great is the sand box style exploration and random quests you encounter during the un-guided adventure. for a long time, BioWare always follows the style of Torment and Kotor, it's time for BioWare to look at the old-school RPG design concepts which Bethesda has been doing for almost 20 years and put more work on atmosphere and exploration.

edit: race options is really the least thing BioWare should care. just look at the first witcher game. it caught the soul of Baldur's Gate with a fixed character. 

I never felt any of the Witcher games compared to the BG games at all. i loved The Witcher, sure. But it wasn`t a tactical, party-based game at all.

[The Elder King]

I don't know if it was already posted, but Cameron Lee responded about the Skyrim approach in DAI:

http://dragonage.wik...t_for_the_story

[Yrkoon]

Wow, Wiki is fast.

Yes, that quote of his originated Here on this thread, just a page  ago, in fact.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Nattfare]

deuce985 wrote...

Avejajed wrote...

Super Mario Bro. 2 is what I heard.

So...that means this war will be converted into save the princess story? Then the big ugly Bowser will actually be the Darkspawn kidnapping the princess? I could totally draw parallels between the two worlds in my head.

What? You didn't save the princess in Super Mario Bros 2. You even pick her as a character in the game if you want.

From what I can remember there wasn't much of a plot until you actually finished the game. It turns out it was all just a dream Mario had about overthrowing a tyrant toad or something.

Oh dear, that doesn't sound very promising as an inspiration...

[Robert Cousland]

Actually, funny thing, Mario Bros 2 was a play and not a dream.

Modifié par Broxert, 10 décembre 2012 - 03:44 .

[Robert Cousland]

Cameron Lee wrote...

Hey everyone,

I've noticed a few people on the BSN seemed concerned DA3 will focus on exploration at the expense of story. I assure you, DA3 is a BioWare game which means a strong, character driven epic story which spans many diverse locations.

Yes, we look at and learn from other games like Skyrim and how their sandbox style evolved to help them over multiple generations of titles. We’re gamers so we look at all sorts of games, recently I’ve looked at; AC3, Dishonored, XCOM, Dragons Dogma, Dark Souls, Kingdoms of Amalur, plus many more, including old school games which show off fundamentals. This doesn’t mean we radically change direction, though all these titles can influence aspects of what or how we create if we think it’s appropriate. This is normal in every studio so don't worry, you’ll get a kickass BioWare story, quests and characters.

Be calm and game on friends.

I have a question for the Bioware team, have you ever taken inspiration from the Legend of Zelda games?

[sunnydxmen]

ewwww skyrim sucked that game was horrible.

[Montana]

BioWare could learn alot from Bethesda, just as Bethesda could learn alot from BioWare.

If BioWare and Bethesda had an illegitimate love-child I would be the first in line for adoption.
Exploring a sandbox game with great story... Sign me up.

[brushyourteeth]

Avejajed wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

Hey everyone,

I've noticed a few people on the BSN seemed concerned DA3 will focus on exploration at the expense of story. I assure you, DA3 is a BioWare game which means a strong, character driven epic story which spans many diverse locations.

Yes, we look at and learn from other games like Skyrim and how their sandbox style evolved to help them over multiple generations of titles. We’re gamers so we look at all sorts of games, recently I’ve looked at; AC3, Dishonored, XCOM, Dragons Dogma, Dark Souls, Kingdoms of Amalur, plus many more, including old school games which show off fundamentals. This doesn’t mean we radically change direction, though all these titles can influence aspects of what or how we create if we think it’s appropriate. This is normal in every studio so don't worry, you’ll get a kickass BioWare story, quests and characters.

Be calm and game on friends.

Wich old-school games have you guys been looking at, anyway? Just curious.

Super Mario Bro. 2 is what I heard.

If I get to throw turnips at the darkspawn, I will be such a happy camper. 

[In Exile]

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
I don't understand here. In which game it isn't the case ?  ( In all the games, people are romaming around with even more limits, [/quote]

But that's the thing - this nonsense "freedom" , that fails to parallel what the world is like at all, isn't what makes the world feel alive to me. It's whether or not the scripted elements, the characters, their motives, etc. reflect what we've come to see is natural, reasonable world-building/characters.

[quote]and often worse, they stay static like in Dragon age. ) ( I still need to see in another game people, some travelers or guards, crossing all the country on the roads lol. )  And the set routine is already a lot huh, ( in other games, at best you only see the bots walking or staying at the same place.... they don't eat in the tavern, they don't have any discussion somewhere else with another random npc, they don't have any house and just disappear at night or staying at the same place as if it didn't happen, don't go to bed, they don't do other things, they don't even react to the player's actions, you can't kill them, you can't be a criminal with many npcs trying to kill you, etc ) and the interaction with the npcs is already a thousand time better than DA2 where you can walk around into the city and talk to no one except the characters for the side quests and the main quest... ( and there are many many many side quests in Skyrim, so many people concerned in each city ) In Assassin's creed, which I love too, it's the same even if it is also really good in this area. Maybe you don't care but that's definitely a part of what constitutes a living word. [/quote]

No. That's not a living world. A living world is a world that's actually alive. Not a bunch of robots that looking like something out of a 50s theme park.

[quote]So which game has a better world reactivity than Skyrim ? Don't you think that's quite normal if many people felt the world of Skyrim alive compared to what we see today ?[/quote]

No. Because no one says "Skyrim's pathetic when compared to any reasonable standard, but at least it's better than all the rest".

[quote]I've never seen a game that did so much work in this area. So yeah, I think the praise is well desserved. And in the witcher 2 it felt maybe more alive " to you ", but I don't see where it would be better, except the focus for the characters and a strong story. I played this game, I wasn't impressed like I was with Skyrim the first time, even if it's beautiful.[/quote]

Because it's not about the scenery. And it's not about the robots that move from A to B with their buckets and their 4 lines of dialogue. It's about whether or not there actually feels like there's a world that doesn't end at the protagonist's FOV. And of course it's to me, because this is all subjective.

[quote]Many People have a normal life in the game, you don't need to know much how boring and normal their life is. In real life, you don't know everything about everyone. In Skyrim, you can interact with them, with absolutely everyone, ( learning many things at the same time ) despite they aren't concerned by a side quest, or totally meaningless in the story, and that is quite something. In the witcher 2, you can't even talk to many people who are just there to be there like in Dragon age 2...[/quote]

In Skyrim, I can't talk to anything about anyone. They're robots designed to give me quests. I get them to read ther character bio to me, and that's about it. An interaction is always dynamic - but games don't portray that - and then it changes the context of what you do, and who you engage with.

You act as if this pathetic level of interaction with NPCs is what makes a game "alive", but that just isn't the case, for me

When I look to the other games, I don't see where there's something that feels more alive than this world. Here also some quotes to tell what I meant.

[quote
Day night, - weather impact, world reactivity, non static npcs, etc etc. It's all I am talking about a world that feels alive. Look to Dragon age, and  see Skyrim after. That's quite obvious even if Skyrim isn't focused on the characters.
[/quote]

And all of that doesn't make the world feel alive. A day that last a few hours, my ability go around shirtless and not immediately freeze to death, the unrealistic scale of the world (re: size of the NPCs/cities), etc. etc.

That's what stands out to me. It's always artificial. Is Skyrim better than many other games out there in this regard? Absolutely! But it doesn't work for me.

[Dasher1010]

To be fair, Skyrim and The Witcher 2 were far more well received than DA2 was. It's only natural for DA3 to flow more like an action adventure RPG since that's what the market wants.

Like if you look at RPGs that aren't MMOs, the successful ones are both action and exploration based. It's not only Skyrim and The Witcher 2 but also Borderlands 2, Diablo 3, Mass Effect, Darksiders 2, Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Dishonored. This trend probably won't change back unless Dead State and Wasteland 2 are successful.

That said, I like action RPGs. Popular doesn't equal bad.

[LinksOcarina]

Dasher1010 wrote...

To be fair, Skyrim and The Witcher 2 were far more well received than DA2 was. It's only natural for DA3 to flow more like an action adventure RPG since that's what the market wants.

Like if you look at RPGs that aren't MMOs, the successful ones are both action and exploration based. It's not only Skyrim and The Witcher 2 but also Borderlands 2, Diablo 3, Mass Effect, Darksiders 2, Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Dishonored. This trend probably won't change back unless Dead State and Wasteland 2 are successful.

That said, I like action RPGs. Popular doesn't equal bad.

Which they will be, but it would be a niche success based on its budget. Even if word of mouth helps because of the style of game it is it will not appeal to everyone. 

And to be honest to the above Mass Effect, Withcer 2 and Deus Ex are niche titles as well. Oh they sold a lot, but compared to say Skyrim or Diablo 3 numbers, it was fairly insignificant. Also Darksiders and Dishonored skirt the genre too much to be called an RPG. Both are more reminiscent of Zelda in being action-adventure over anything else. 

For me, reason Skyrim made so much money was due to broad appeal and good marketing. These type of games sell more because of the open-endedness, versus an actual narrative. It is like trying to reach CoD numbers, you can't appeal to that and hit ten million sold. But you still need to make money to make that budget. 

It's a tough cunundrum really. But BioWare does know how to work their stories, so I am pretty confident that they will do all right. 

[Sylvianus]

In Exile wrote...
snip  

Meh. I have a headache now. Many things of what you said seem total nonsense or useless talking, useless semantic,  to me. When you quoted me, you said that you didn't understand why people thought it felt alive to them, I answered. And now you are trying to say no they are wrong " to you" with your weird point of view...  If that was your point since the beginning, then my response was useless. The last sentence is the only thing that I think was worth to read and clear. You don't like it, it doesn't work for you with your subjective point of view. So be it. That is your feelings, I don't really care. The world of Skyrim doesn't feel alive to you, people are robots, etc etc. Yeah. I think we are done.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[In Exile]

Sylvianus wrote...
Meh. I have a headache now. Many things of what you said seem total nonsense or useless talking, useless semantic,  to me. When you quoted me, you said that you didn't understand why people thought it felt alive to them,

No, I didn't. I said I didn't get the praise, because I thought it didn't do this. I then offered a series of reasons why I felt it failed to do this. You disagreed, with your argument basically being that it's better than anything else out there. I disagreed with that and...

I answered. And now you are  trying to say no they are wrong " to you" with your weird point of view...

.
..,Now my POV is "weird". Great. Welcome to the internet me, I suppose.

[abaris]

I'd say it's a good thing.

What Bethesda games usually lack are gripping stories and a reactive world. If Bioware can come up with one and a believable world, they can plagiarise Skyrim as much as they want.

[Tootles FTW]

Where Skyrim and Oblivion always failed for me is in the story, and getting me emotionally involved in the characters. Skyrim was even worse than Oblivion, because at least in Oblivion I had Sean Bean to care about in an abstract sense (i,e, I don't want his voice to ever leave me, ever). The environments were pretty, but I just didn't CARE anymore after the 25+ hour crawled by.

I was playing Kingdoms of Amalur (another open-world game, but with a more DA2-style art aesthetic) and I couldn't keep the potential for DA:I out of my head. KoA wasn't too bloated of a world map, and the biomes were varied, distinct, and colorful...I'd love to see something similar in DA.

[Elhanan]

I want the storyline of Bioware, but also the reactive world of Skyrim. Having a nearby child telling me I should not play with fire spells is fun!

I want the customization of Skyrim, but also the purpose and motivations told in DA origins. Having witnessed Arl Howe betray and slaughter your family, or have the Noble rapist offer you gold to forget what you saw is both emotional and memorable.

I want the ability to climb above the ramparts, slay the posted watch at range; dropping to open the gate to lead your party in a tactical assault without fearing the AI.

I am so wanting all of this.....

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[xconceptualx]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I tried to like Skyrim, but I couldn't. I prefer DA2. Yeah I said it. Get over it.

I can second this.

[abaris]

xconceptualx wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I tried to like Skyrim, but I couldn't. I prefer DA2. Yeah I said it. Get over it.

I can second this.

I neither loved Skyrim nor DAII. For different reasons.

[DiegoRaphael]

Guys, just go back to 2011 and rewatch the first panel about DA3 in that year NYCC

After 4:30 til 5:37 (specialy 5:25 til 5:37)

Modifié par DiegoRaphael, 11 décembre 2012 - 01:45 .