491 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Jugo616 wrote...

Skyrim has the explorability. And that is it. Its story telling is terrible, caracter developement pathetic, the million story lines that can be done has no recognition of each other. And the marry sue level of the main carracter is beond words.

DA2 wasn't good. But it was better then Skyrim.

"Believe what you will. You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool."

Skyrim has some fine writing, too; a good sized portion of it may be found in its books and lore.

[abaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Skyrim has some fine writing, too; a good sized portion of it may be found in its books and lore.

Yeah, but that's also kind of a problem. Not that it's in the lore and books, but that it doesn't really translate into a reactive world.

As I said, if you know what to expect from a TES game, you're fine. I was only disappointed because I played Fallout 3 and expected them not to actually take a step back from the more reactive world they already had in place there.

[Elhanan]

abaris wrote...

Yeah, but that's also kind of a problem. Not that it's in the lore and books, but that it doesn't really translate into a reactive world.

As I said, if you know what to expect from a TES game, you're fine. I was only disappointed because I played Fallout 3 and expected them not to actually take a step back from the more reactive world they already had in place there.

Dunno; that outer layer of NPC's reacting to choices made of the Dragonborn is quite compelling. While I am not much into tree hugging as a rule, saving the tree in Whiterun was so well received and aethetically pleasing that I have done this small quest in almost every playthrough. Same goes for eliminating the Dark Brotherhood; a personal prereq to add Shawdowmere via console commands.

I agree that Skyrim may not be as deep in writing, but what is there besides romance is generally done well. And I do not play RPG's for virtual romance.

[LinksOcarina]

Elhanan wrote...

abaris wrote...

Yeah, but that's also kind of a problem. Not that it's in the lore and books, but that it doesn't really translate into a reactive world.

As I said, if you know what to expect from a TES game, you're fine. I was only disappointed because I played Fallout 3 and expected them not to actually take a step back from the more reactive world they already had in place there.

Dunno; that outer layer of NPC's reacting to choices made of the Dragonborn is quite compelling. While I am not much into tree hugging as a rule, saving the tree in Whiterun was so well received and aethetically pleasing that I have done this small quest in almost every playthrough. Same goes for eliminating the Dark Brotherhood; a personal prereq to add Shawdowmere via console commands.

I agree that Skyrim may not be as deep in writing, but what is there besides romance is generally done well. And I do not play RPG's for virtual romance.

It is a different type of RPG, that is what needs to be reconized. A deep story in Skyrim is all but impossible unless you cut off or mod the game to some extant. 

[Bfler]

LinksOcarina wrote...

It is a different type of RPG, that is what needs to be reconized. A deep story in Skyrim is all but impossible unless you cut off or mod the game to some extant. 

I don't know Dragonborn, because I'm on PC, but I think the story of Dawnguard is ok.

[Elhanan]

Modding is up to each indv Player; an option that is also quite pleasing with the inclusion of the Toolset. Personally, I am quite fine with the Vanilla game, and have not found the need to do more than enhance what is there. Others see fir to add stories, change it into another game, etc. Skyrim allows that kind of freedom. This is a freedom I enjoy seeing, but do not feel compelled to utilize as much as others.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Eh, he's not a fan. In my experiences with TES (Olbivion and Morrowind), plot isn't a huge focus of their games.  I find the excel at lore and setting creation.

My old prof (who uses RPGs for research) even had the pleasure of talking with some guys from Bethesda in the wake of Oblivion, and they stated that most of their story focus went into the early part of the game to provide a hook for the player to keep playing and start exploring the world.

I hear Skyrim is better than Oblivion, but it did seem to match my expectations for Oblivion after the fact.

Creating interesting and memorable characters is also not one of Bethesda's strengths. Lots of very dull NPCs to be found throughout their RPGs.

[TheAgarrar]

As long as the Skyrim influence is only in relation to exploration and not the combat?

[Rawgrim]

Skyrim had some excelent stories in it, i think. The thieves guild one and the Dark Brotherhood questline were great. None of the elder scrolls games had a huge story like Bioware gamesdo, though. But i think thats simply because its supposed to be more of a sandbox game. You get loads of shorter storylines instead. Some of them are abit lacking, and some are great.

I wouldn`t want Skyrim`ish combat in a DA game, though. i can`t see it working well for a party based rpg at all. Still...anything is better than enemies raining from the sky and exploding whenever you poke them with something.

[abaris]

Rawgrim wrote...

Skyrim had some excelent stories in it, i think. The thieves guild one and the Dark Brotherhood questline were great. None of the elder scrolls games had a huge story like Bioware gamesdo, though. But i think thats simply because its supposed to be more of a sandbox game. You get loads of shorter storylines instead. Some of them are abit lacking, and some are great.

I wouldn`t want Skyrim`ish combat in a DA game, though. i can`t see it working well for a party based rpg at all. Still...anything is better than enemies raining from the sky and exploding whenever you poke them with something.

The thieves and the Dark Brotherhood are indeed the redeeming factors.

But open world or sandbox doesn't have to mean poor story. Bethesda themselves did a lot better with Fallout 3 and (only as publisher) with Fallout New Vegas. Both open world games, both rather sandboxy, but both with stories better than Skyrim.

[Rawgrim]

abaris wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Skyrim had some excelent stories in it, i think. The thieves guild one and the Dark Brotherhood questline were great. None of the elder scrolls games had a huge story like Bioware gamesdo, though. But i think thats simply because its supposed to be more of a sandbox game. You get loads of shorter storylines instead. Some of them are abit lacking, and some are great.

I wouldn`t want Skyrim`ish combat in a DA game, though. i can`t see it working well for a party based rpg at all. Still...anything is better than enemies raining from the sky and exploding whenever you poke them with something.

The thieves and the Dark Brotherhood are indeed the redeeming factors.

But open world or sandbox doesn't have to mean poor story. Bethesda themselves did a lot better with Fallout 3 and (only as publisher) with Fallout New Vegas. Both open world games, both rather sandboxy, but both with stories better than Skyrim.

Dunno about Fallout 3. Didn`t think that story stood out too much. New Vegas, on the other hand, I agree with 100 percent. Fallout 3 got kind of boring at times. Too many subway stations and vaults to get through. Got abit tedious. The mood and the setting of Fallout is fantastic, though. Really sucked me in.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Rawgrim wrote...

abaris wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Skyrim had some excelent stories in it, i think. The thieves guild one and the Dark Brotherhood questline were great. None of the elder scrolls games had a huge story like Bioware gamesdo, though. But i think thats simply because its supposed to be more of a sandbox game. You get loads of shorter storylines instead. Some of them are abit lacking, and some are great.

I wouldn`t want Skyrim`ish combat in a DA game, though. i can`t see it working well for a party based rpg at all. Still...anything is better than enemies raining from the sky and exploding whenever you poke them with something.

The thieves and the Dark Brotherhood are indeed the redeeming factors.

But open world or sandbox doesn't have to mean poor story. Bethesda themselves did a lot better with Fallout 3 and (only as publisher) with Fallout New Vegas. Both open world games, both rather sandboxy, but both with stories better than Skyrim.

Dunno about Fallout 3. Didn`t think that story stood out too much. New Vegas, on the other hand, I agree with 100 percent. Fallout 3 got kind of boring at times. Too many subway stations and vaults to get through. Got abit tedious. The mood and the setting of Fallout is fantastic, though. Really sucked me in.

Fallout 3 was a fun game, but apart from its unusual and more interesting setting, wasn't outstanding in the story department. New Vegas, by virtue of being developed by a company (Obsidian) with different priorities when it comes to plot and storytelling was much stronger in those areas. It probably didn't hurt matters either that Obsidian has among its roster people who were involved in developing the first Fallout games, which I have always taken to indicate a greater personal passion for that world and its lore.

I'm actually worried that Fallout 4, spectacular though it will be in other respects (especially considering the innovations made with Skyrim, e.g. dual-wielding), will fall short in the story department, since Bethsoft only uses the main plot as a hook (referring back to an earlier post Mr. Schumacher made in this thread). It always feels like they rush that aspect of their games.

Look, I understand that casual gamers are any company's bread and butter. That's where they make their profits. At the end of the day they care more about the player's immersion in the game and the fun they'll have exploring the world, but I don't see why they can't aim a little higher when it comes to story, particularly a franchise that fans have gotten so deeply invested in, like Fallout.

Oh dear, I fear I've been getting rather off-topic here. BioWare rocks!

[abaris]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...


Fallout 3 was a fun game, but apart from its unusual and more interesting setting, wasn't outstanding in the story department.

But it still had a story and most of all a reactive environment.

That's the very big difference to Skyrim where certain persons don't even notice that the one they're rambling about is lying dead at their feet.

I don't expect video games to go for the Pulitzer in the story department. Bioware never did that either. I just want to get the feeling of being a number in the game world through my achievements and not being a nobody from start to finish with bots repeating their only line over and over.

That's another difference between Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

[Dessalines]

The reason why I loved Dragon Age, because it was so different than Oblivion.After playing Bioware games, I cannot even play Skyrim or Amalur without being digusted by the lack of story.
When I want to wander around aimlessly, I go outside. I don't need to log into a computer world and marvel at the simulation around me.(Unless it is Journey, and Journey is not open ended either) I don't need to play dress up with my companions either for me to get the rpg experience.(I understand if people need too)

In Skyrim, you still are lead by the nose in the story. Can you switch factions after the crown quest? No? Can you kill the Dark Brotherhood after joining them? No? Your achievements don't matter. You can be the head of the Guilds, and doesn't change the dialogue. I even got threaten by someone who told me there knew the DarkBrother which I was the leader of.

The news I read in Game Informer is the first time I am thinking about not buying Dragon Age 3.
If Bioware is sacrificing story and player choices so they can fill up a game content with your player wandering around than I think I am not going buy Dragon Age 3.

I expect Bioware to be leaders. When Dragon Age trailers came out, people were talking about how much it sucked. How much it wasn't like previous Bioware Games So Dragon Age 2 wasn't like by everyone? That doesn't meant you stop being leaders and start being followers.

People with their crazy EA conspiracy have finallly proven one right by their complaints. They have forced Bioware to change their approach to games in search of profits.

[Rawgrim]

Dessalines wrote...

The reason why I loved Dragon Age, because it was so different than Oblivion.After playing Bioware games, I cannot even play Skyrim or Amalur without being digusted by the lack of story.
When I want to wander around aimlessly, I go outside. I don't need to log into a computer world and marvel at the simulation around me.(Unless it is Journey, and Journey is not open ended either) I don't need to play dress up with my companions either for me to get the rpg experience.(I understand if people need too)

In Skyrim, you still are lead by the nose in the story. Can you switch factions after the crown quest? No? Can you kill the Dark Brotherhood after joining them? No? Your achievements don't matter. You can be the head of the Guilds, and doesn't change the dialogue. I even got threaten by someone who told me there knew the DarkBrother which I was the leader of.

The news I read in Game Informer is the first time I am thinking about not buying Dragon Age 3.
If Bioware is sacrificing story and player choices so they can fill up a game content with your player wandering around than I think I am not going buy Dragon Age 3.

I expect Bioware to be leaders. When Dragon Age trailers came out, people were talking about how much it sucked. How much it wasn't like previous Bioware Games So Dragon Age 2 wasn't like by everyone? That doesn't meant you stop being leaders and start being followers.

People with their crazy EA conspiracy have finallly proven one right by their complaints. They have forced Bioware to change their approach to games in search of profits.

You are lead by the nose in DA as well. You get huge markers on the map, telling you where to go. The journal tells you exactly what to do when you get there.

No, you can`t switch factions after the crown quest, simply because the quest is done. You have put someone on the throne.

Not sure if you can kill the Dark Brotherhood after you become the leader. Then again, you can`t kill the Wardens after you join them either, so...Your point?

Yes. The dialogue changes when you are the head of the guild. It is acknowledged plenty. Even by people you meet in the streets, that are somehow affiliated with the guild in question. After the main quest you even start hearing bard songs about you.

You mean player choices getting removed would keep you from buying the game? Racial choices got removed in DA2. So did companion customization, and coices that would affect the outcome of the game. It was as linear as it could get.

If someone elses product sells more than yours, and they make more money than you do with their pruduct, you become a follower, not a leader.

Look at what EA did to Origin and Westwood. Take a look at what happened to their franchises after EA bought them. You can see alot of simmilarities with the direction Bioware games are taking now. So i can understand why people would jump to conclusions.

Your whole post reeks of hypocrisy. What is ok for DA is not ok for Skyrim etc. And some points you are just making up.

[frankf43]

Bfler wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

It is a different type of RPG, that is what needs to be reconized. A deep story in Skyrim is all but impossible unless you cut off or mod the game to some extant. 

I don't know Dragonborn, because I'm on PC, but I think the story of Dawnguard is ok.

It is if you add the mod to stop all the shopkeepers and quest givers from dying, otherwise the place becomes a ghost town.

[Celene II]

The best way to combine Skyrim with Dragon Age is for Dragon age to have far more random locations that have nothing to do with quests.

And by random i mean not the same every time in every game. Just procedurally generate some caves, some ruins, some temples, some land and let people explore it. The success of Skyrim was not because you Fus Ro Da every monster in the game. I think it was because you could walk over a hill and find a collection of wolves fighting over a camp with a few interesting items to steal from them.
Exploration is key to sandbox and you can steal it without using a sandbox format

[Mr Deathbot]

Honestly I love Skyrim to death but I hope the only thing they take from it is exploration and a bigger world than DA:O and ESPECIALLY a bigger world than DA2, I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind or Dark Souls ( Dark Souls actually has pretty good RPG mechanics I'm not talking about difficulty)

Modifié par Mr Deathbot, 17 décembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Bfler]

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Modifié par Bfler, 15 décembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Mr Deathbot]

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Lol, indeed but I can dream.

[brettc893]

Mr Deathbot wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Lol, indeed but I can dream.

We can always dream... Sigh... Morrowind, how I love you so...

But seriously, **** Skyrim. Keep it out of my Dragon Age thank you very much.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Blanketly insulting fans who like different games than you isn't acceptable.  I'm starting to grow exceptionally weary of it.

I mean, look at your own post, which insults the intelligence of those that like things you do not.  Though instead of using the proper two letter abbreviation to indicate an example (e.g. which is latin for exempli gratia: "for example") you have gone with "f.e" which is at best a vague internet colloquialism that no self respecting intellectual would ever use.

But then, you're not the one that struggles with mental abilities, it's the guys who like video games that you don't like.


People like different things.  Better to accept that and embrace things like crowdsourcing and an improving indie game scene (thanks in large part to digital distribution) as alternative ways to get the types of games that you find more interesting if the bigger publishers aren't delivering.


EDIT: responses here, since I did have a point to doing this
His
Mine

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 15 décembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Savber100]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Blanketly insulting fans who like different games than you isn't acceptable.  I'm starting to grow exceptionally weary of it.

I mean, look at your own post, which insults the intelligence of those that like things you do not.  Though instead of using the proper two letter abbreviation to indicate an example (e.g. which is latin for exempli gratia: "for example") you have gone with "f.e" which is at best a vague internet colloquialism that no self respecting intellectual would ever use.

But then, you're not the one that struggles with mental abilities, it's the guys who like video games that you don't like.


People like different things.  Better to accept that and embrace things like crowdsourcing and an improving indie game scene (thanks in large part to digital distribution) as alternative ways to get the types of games that you find more interesting if the bigger publishers aren't delivering.

Listen to the man. 

He has a point. :happy:

[brettc893]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Blanketly insulting fans who like different games than you isn't acceptable.  I'm starting to grow exceptionally weary of it.

I mean, look at your own post, which insults the intelligence of those that like things you do not.  Though instead of using the proper two letter abbreviation to indicate an example (e.g. which is latin for exempli gratia: "for example") you have gone with "f.e" which is at best a vague internet colloquialism that no self respecting intellectual would ever use.

But then, you're not the one that struggles with mental abilities, it's the guys who like video games that you don't like.


People like different things.  Better to accept that and embrace things like crowdsourcing and an improving indie game scene (thanks in large part to digital distribution) as alternative ways to get the types of games that you find more interesting if the bigger publishers aren't delivering.

Different people liking different things is all well good and exceptable, but when game franchises I love are dumbed down or radically changed to target people who had little interest to begin with, I take offense. Why ignore the fans who helped make you into what you are today for the sake of getting Timmy Black Ops to play your game for a week and then trade it to get Madden 14? Why not keep what works and improve upon it instead of "Streamlining"? Publishers insult people's intelligence by thinking they have to dumb everything down for it to be commercially viable.

None of that is aimed at you or Bioware at all, by the way, just my take on the discussion.

[Adugan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Mr Deathbot wrote...
... I would hope they take inspiration from real RPGs like Morrowind...

I think, games like Morrowind overwhelm the mental abilities of the majority of Bioware's target audience, f.e. the quests require a lot of patience and that's rare nowadays.

Blanketly insulting fans who like different games than you isn't acceptable.  I'm starting to grow exceptionally weary of it.

I mean, look at your own post, which insults the intelligence of those that like things you do not.  Though instead of using the proper two letter abbreviation to indicate an example (e.g. which is latin for exempli gratia: "for example") you have gone with "f.e" which is at best a vague internet colloquialism that no self respecting intellectual would ever use.

But then, you're not the one that struggles with mental abilities, it's the guys who like video games that you don't like.


People like different things.  Better to accept that and embrace things like crowdsourcing and an improving indie game scene (thanks in large part to digital distribution) as alternative ways to get the types of games that you find more interesting if the bigger publishers aren't delivering.

LOL, ironic mod burn