27 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

 Did I get your attention? I knew the magical word will work But jokes aside there is one thing that is bothering me more and more - dialog lines recycling.

If you played enough of BW games you might note that ALL shooters in ALL games - whether it's fantasy or sci-fi - yell "And stay down" when they hit the target. It's not the only common line and it's a good line - I admit - but hearing it from every shooting companion... is a bit too much for me.

Sometimes it's more then one line. Like in ME3 Shepard-Garrus bottle shooting. Should Sheprad win - Garrus will talk about the "bottles riot", should Garrus win - Shepard will say it _in exact same words_. I repeat - EXACT SAME WORDS, not even slightest variation.

I do understand the  authors are the same from game to game. But should one go through several BW games in relatively short time (as some do, been hooked by one game and willing to see all companie's work) - and that one get feeling he/she plays the same game with slightly different background.

I am exaggerating but not much. When you read ME novels and see paragraphs taking directly from or inserted "as is" into the game - well one is the novel and another is the game. Not much harm done. But from game to game same lines, same phrases (and within major dialogs too) - it's a bit uncreative and cheap, don't you think? Like there is a list of phrases created in times of BG and never ever changed since.
  
How is it related to bisexuality? I predict the answer: if, let's say, Kaidan and Carth share the same phrase (underlined by using same VA) - these are two, bloody, different games, your Shepard never even heard about Carth. Or with bottle shooting - one Shepard gets only one set of dialog options, to know about another one you have to play another Shepard differently. The very same answer you get about bisexuality in DA2 - your Fem!Hawke does not know about your Bro!Hawke, hence, companions and other flurting NPC are not bisexual. True, my Hawkes and Shepards are ignorant, they know nothing. By I (me, the player) DO know. And it does make re-playability less valuable.  

It's a very small annoyance, probably most people never even noticed it. But it is there. And how you handle small things says a lot about quality. Would be nice to see even such a minor details addressed.

Modifié par Amirit, 08 décembre 2012 - 11:21 .

[Helena Tylena]

Yes. 'recycling' does get my fancies tickled.

Anyway, about the whole bisexuality thing, what exactly are you saying? That you wish you didn't know in a second playthrough what you learned in a first? How exactly do you propose BioWare solve that issue? Brainwashing? I'm not sure I want anything owned by EA have THAT kind of power...

[Amirit]

Glad I am not alone on that one. It just happened that I played several games almost back-to-back and recycling begin to really bother me.

Helena Tylena wrote...
Anyway, about the whole bisexuality thing, what exactly are you saying?

What I am saying is I can not forget that I already heard that very same line from another character. As well as I can not "unlearn" that Anders was hitting on my Fem!Hawke just in a very previous game.

In case of bisexuality it can be solved by addition of more companions with established orientation (as it was done in every other game). Dialogs recycling fix - is less expensive but less needed as well, I am afraid.

[Maria Caliban]

I've read the original post and find it rather unclear.

You can't have a different bark for every time a person is killed because hundreds of people die in a BioWare game. This might be annoying, but it's better than complete silence (or just grunts and groans), which is the only other option.

And my Shepard never said a thing about bottles.

The conversation about bisexual has as much to do about companion barks as it does about repeating maps. It's rather shoe-horned in.

That said, sure, I wouldn't mind if a romancable companion had a few different conversations depending on the main character's gender.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 décembre 2012 - 12:15 .

[Felya87]

Let's see if I have interpreted well (English isn't my language, so I can be wrong) to give a better replayability, during a romance, the LI would be interesting, if he/she used different lines of dialogue if romancing a Male or Female PC. Is that right?

[Amirit]

Guess I am very unclear about it.

What I was saying is: in different games for different characters BW is using same lines for VO. Like in DAA Nathaniel will shout "and stay down!" - and in ME Garrus will yell the same thing " And stay down". So will other characters in other games (SW:TOR, KOTOR - you name it) if they happen to shoot a mob down.
Same goes for other lines not only among those short.

It is hard not to hear those lines in every game.

[Nefla]

Um, It was WINDY up there and Garrus knows I'm good at other things

[AlanC9]

Amirit wrote...
If you played enough of BW games you might note that ALL shooters in ALL games - whether it's fantasy or sci-fi - yell "And stay down" when they hit the target. It's not the only common line and it's a good line - I admit - but hearing it from every shooting companion... is a bit too much for me.

I don't remember Alyx saying that in HL2. Edit: oh, you mean all Bio games?

Does Garrus actually have that line in ME3?

I am exaggerating but not much. When you read ME novels and see paragraphs taking directly from or inserted "as is" into the game - well one is the novel and another is the game. Not much harm done. But from game to game same lines, same phrases (and within major dialogs too) - it's a bit uncreative and cheap, don't you think? Like there is a list of phrases created in times of BG and never ever changed since.

I don't actually know what you're talking about here. The Garrus example isn't anything like this, since that's the same game and almost the same scene. Examples?

How is it related to bisexuality? I predict the answer: if, let's say, Kaidan and Carth share the same phrase (underlined by using same VA) - these are two, bloody, different games, your Shepard never even heard about Carth. 

Did that actually happen?

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 décembre 2012 - 04:31 .

[Plaintiff]

 I'm not seeing the issue.

The English language, vast as it is, still has a limit to the number of word combinations possible while still making sense. If two different game series written by two completely different groups of people who just happen to be working in the same company produce a few similar lines of dialogue, who cares?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 décembre 2012 - 04:36 .

[Amirit]

Tell it to English writers, I am sure they would love it. But your last statement is absolutely correct - apparently nobody cares.

[Leomerya12]

Amirit wrote...

Tell it to English writers, I am sure they would love it. But your last statement is absolutely correct - apparently nobody cares.

Most people aren't English writers. But as one, myself, I find it hard to ignore little things in language, as do you. I agree with your gripe, but it's just a burden we have to bear; the more you know of a subject, the more things will bother you because you "hear" them differently from everyone else. People with perfect pitch find it hard to watch films because the musical scores sound "out of tune" (given the common equal-tempered tuning system). Oh, I'm a composer, too, by the way

Modifié par Leomerya12, 09 décembre 2012 - 01:14 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Skyrim would drive you nuts.

I've never noticed the same lines used from game to game.

[berelinde]

Barks need to express the personality of the speaker, but more importantly, they need to be short. Having different characters shout "And stay down!" may get annoying, but it's *loads* better than having long battle cries. Fenris's "That one shall not rise again!" says essentially the same thing, but it always has me thinking "And you came up with all that on the spot? Repeatedly?" Because we will hear the same battle cries over and over and over throughout the game. And let's face it. How many ways can you say it?

As for having the LIs tailor the romance for different LIs, I'm of two minds about it. I do appreciate that romances don't play out the same across multiple playthroughs, but I understand the necessity of limiting the variation. Romances only get so many words. I would rather have that word budget spent expanding the dialogue options in ways that would benefit *every* protagonist than in customizing the same romance for individual protagonists. Let's say that a romance is allotted 2K words. That doesn't sound like much, but we're talking about dialogue that is unique for a romance relationship, not that which is available to everyone, romance or not. I would rather see 20 romance-specific conversations or romance-specific branches to existing conversations than 10 romance specific lines for 2 orientations. Because I would rather have more recognition of the differences between friendship and romance than recognition that the character can tell the difference between boys and girls.

Playing through with a different LI also enhances replayability.

[Matroska]

Amirit wrote...
What I am saying is I can not forget that I already heard that very same line from another character. As well as I can not "unlearn" that Anders was hitting on my Fem!Hawke just in a very previous game. In case of bisexuality it can be solved by addition of more companions with established orientation (as it was done in every other game). Dialogs recycling fix - is less expensive but less needed as well, I am afraid.

But it's not just the bisexuality, each playthrough's NPCs will do various things that will contradict or become paradoxical if you see them as one single character. I think the point with the sexuality is that it doesn't define a person, it's not like if you say you hate mages, he suddenly isn't a mage in this playthrough. You're not editing his position in life or his opinions and personality, you're effectively altering something merely as defining as his favourite colour or something. The key thing here is that Anders is, potentially, attracted to the main character. The experience is for the person playing as the main character. 

I do think that the checks for it could be done better. If an NPC suddenly "goes gay" to you, merely by way of the game checking if that's what you want, it does seem odd, like they have some sort of Schrodinger's Sexuality. It'd be better if, just for example, at the start of the game you're at a dance and your friend says "Everyone looks so glamorous tonight!" to which you can reply "I know, the women are stunning" or "I know, the men are stunning" or "I know, the women are stunning, and the same goes for the men". That way, they don't have to have a party member say "*Cough* So do you like it up the bum? Eh, just wondering" and then never mention it ever again.

As for general line repetition, I'm not so bothered by Easter Egg-esque nods to another Bioware game with a piece of incidental dialogue as I am by some of the crappy things the Warden would cry out in battle in DAO, such as references to Spider-man. That was pretty immersion breaking.

Modifié par Teclo, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[Herr Uhl]

Amirit wrote...
  
The very same answer you get about bisexuality in DA2 - your Fem!Hawke does not know about your Bro!Hawke, hence, companions and other flurting NPC are not bisexual. True, my Hawkes and Shepards are ignorant, they know nothing. By I (me, the player) DO know. And it does make re-playability less valuable.  

If companions explained to you that they were bisexual, would that help, or is it just that they're bisexual at all?

[upsettingshorts]

The Hawkesexual characters were not done because it was internally logical.

They were done so that players would have access to content regardless of their preferences.

Thus, "Schroedinger's sexuality" or even "realism" counter-arguments miss the point. The feature is about inclusion. I'm pretty sure those of us in favor of them are aware of the cost, and still want to buy it. Reminding us of the expense isn't really going to change our mind if we've already enthusiastically signed the check.

[Matroska]

I wasn't saying I was against it, quite the opposite, I just think that there are far better ways to find out the player's preference than to have each NPC suddenly hit on you, then retract it and never mention it ever again if you refuse. It would also be interesting if the game checked and you stated that you were gay (as a male character) so not only does the game make the romanceable males find you attractive, it makes a female party member fall for you, and you have to deal with that and explain to them - and equivalents for each gender/sexuality combination. It does seem kind of odd that once one NPC "checks you for gayness", the whole world now knows. Look at Skyfall for example, Bond is famously heterosexual, yet the bad guy still hits on him.

OP's problem is that the same character's sexuality differs in different playthroughs, I don't mind that, as I said, but I do think that the way they will always check verbally with you is badly done. I've read interactive novels that deal with this far, far better.

Modifié par Teclo, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Mykel54]

Bisexuality for npcs hurt those who want to replay the game using both female and male characters, as they will run with contradictions (like romancing the same character, which on one game is straight and the other is gay). This can be a big deal to those that have grown to like a certain character for what it was on their first playthrough.

This is no longer my case, as when i play a DA game, i decide beforehand which gender i will choose (based on race & class combo that makes sense to me) to play that game. Then i stick to that gender and don´t replay the game with the other one, simply because it would be someone else´s character and not mine.

By playing this way you can avoid the contradictions inherent to having bisexual npcs in the game, but at the cost of limited replayability. Personally, i don´t think bioware games are as replayable as many people here would think, so i don´t mind sticking with a certain gender/class combo for my playthroughs. I find that the subtle details that change for playing something else (like female hawke instead of male hawke in DA2) are not worth doing a full playthrough.

Modifié par Mykel54, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Herr Uhl]

Mykel54 wrote...

Bisexuality for npcs hurt those who want to replay the game using both female and male characters, as they will run with contradictions (like romancing the same character, which on one game is straight and the other is gay). This can be a big deal to those that have grown to like a certain character for what it was on their first playthrough.

Is this any different if the character is clearly bisexual, like Isabela?

[Navasha]

Maybe check out the thread that was here a few days ago on 'word budgets'. If you can, as a developer, harness a phrase from a previous game by the very same voice actor that fits a particular situation in your current game, you would use that. It would be significantly cheaper to do so, then to have a voice actor record almost the exact same phrase again, only this time change one word just so its 'different'.

As for the bisexuality argument you are making... well I got some bad news for you. They are not developing the game with replayability in mind. We, here, that will replay a game over ... and over and over and over again.... are severely in the minority. Like less than 10% of game consumers. So, from a development point of view, they are offering up 4 choices of romances for the vast majority of players who simply play through the game one time, and that is assuming they even finish it. Most don't.

Modifié par Navasha, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[Matroska]

Well if you're going to say they're not designed for replayability, the bisexual thing actually goes against that. If they remain the same each playthrough, there's less reason to replay. When characters can live or die based on seemingly unrelated decisions, it's really nothing noteworthy when they prefer a different hole.

Really, this complaint seems to boil down to "When I replay the game for a different experience, I don't want a different experience". In one playthrough your sister may die, in another she lives. Oh noes, she's neither alive or dead, like a certain famous cat who's already been referred to on this page.

Modifié par Teclo, 09 décembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[Mykel54]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Mykel54 wrote...

Bisexuality for npcs hurt those who want to replay the game using both female and male characters, as they will run with contradictions (like romancing the same character, which on one game is straight and the other is gay). This can be a big deal to those that have grown to like a certain character for what it was on their first playthrough.

Is this any different if the character is clearly bisexual, like Isabela?

Yes, it is different. When you play DA2 for the first time, Isabela lets you know that she will have sex with nearly anything that moves. When you replay the game, you will expect her to be the same character, and to still want to have sex with anyone. This is a trait shared by both versions of the character: the male pc playtrhrough and the female pc playthrough. Iabela acts the same way regardless, and let you know regardless of Hawke´s gender, that she can have sex with any gender.

There is no conflict or contradiction here, in fact, you could plan for it: you play as male hawke, realise that isabela also likes women, and on your next playthrough, you play female hawke in order to have a lesbian romance with isabela. You can plan how a character will react on your next playthrough, because there is no contradiction, it´s the same character.

A different situation would be for Isabela to dislike stealing if your character is female, but then if your character was male, Isabela would like stealing. It wouldn´t make sense for the same character to display opposite views on the same topic. You would be confused when you replayed the game, that now Isabela has changed her opinion with no input on your part: she simply decided that because you are now male, stealing is ok.

This is what happens when the npcs are bisexual, as i said this detracts from replayability but it is also a way to make all romances available to all protagonists.

[Wulfram]

Subjective sexuality would bug me if I bought into it, or if the game went to far in enforcing it. But I have no trouble concluding instead that they're all bisexual, even if it doesn't necessarily come up in game.

[legbamel]

Teclo wrote...
Well if you're going to say they're not designed for replayability, the bisexual thing actually goes against that. If they remain the same each playthrough, there's less reason to replay. When characters can live or die based on seemingly unrelated decisions, it's really nothing noteworthy when they prefer a different hole.

Really, this complaint seems to boil down to "When I replay the game for a different experience, I don't want a different experience". In one playthrough your sister may die, in another she lives. Oh noes, she's neither alive or dead, like a certain famous cat who's already been referred to on this page.

Quite the opposite, in fact.  PC-sexual companions/LIs mean that a one-time player can romance any of the options.  I'm not sure what you're saying, here.  The games are not designed for replayability so why shouldn't the availability of any romance reduce the reasons to replay.

But replaying the game doesn't revolve around who you sleep with once or twice.  It's a ROLE PLAYING game, for, y'know, playing a role.  What you do with your parts in the meantime has nothing to do with anyone else's preference and it's hardly the game's fault that you can't compartmentalize your stories.  They're separate, alternate universes as far as the NPCs are concerned and, unless one of the characters specifically tells you their leanings, you can't make assumptions about them.  Metagaming reduces replayability a lot more than PC-centric love interests.