233 réponses à ce sujet

[Direwolf0294]

They should just do what The Walking Dead did. They shouldn't be afraid to suddenly kill off character or to give us hope and then tear it away.

[thats1evildude]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

[KiwiQuiche]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke.

Wasn't this moments after Carver died!?

Yup and an utterly horrible thing to say to your child.

If in DA3 they kill off people that are to cause the PC grief, at least make them likable.

[KiwiQuiche]

thats1evildude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

That's still no excuse and it didn't endear me to her at all. In fact, I disliked her more and more everytime I replayed it.

[KiwiQuiche]

Filament wrote...

I think it might be harder to do in an RPG because you would be assuming the player would want their PC to feel devastation. The scene where Shepard is "devastated" by Kai Leng (this actually happens to Shepard on multiple occasions in the trilogy) feels very contrived and alienates me, the player.

Well, they could let you choose your response to their deaths and wheather or not you actually care about the character who dies.

Kinda like in Fallout 3 where you can be sad about the death of your dad or bluntly state that you don't care and some other options in between. I wouldn't mind if we could pick our reactions. And agreed, Shepard's forced feels in ME3 really pissed me off, especially after Thessia where she was all angsty and butthurt to everyone, even my xenophobic renegade. :I

[David7204]

Angst is easy. Lose-lose situations are easy.

Meaningful heroism is difficult. And rare.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

This can only work if the PC's personality is severely constrained.  Only if the writers know what will hurt the PC can they plan for him to be hurt.

[Sylvius the Mad]

thats1evildude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

It's entirely up to the player what his PC takes personally.

[thats1evildude]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's entirely up to the player what his PC takes personally.

I'm not making a statement on player agency, Sylvius. I'm telling her that human beings sometimes say stupid things in the midst of grief, like when they're cradling the body of their dead children. You don't take it personally because their emotions are running wild.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 décembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[Wulfram]

If they do this, they should give the player a choice as to what exactly they lose and what they can salvage from the ruins.

Firstly, because making the player lose always risks taking away "agency". So maintaining some element of choice is important.

Secondly, it'll add to the sense of despair by adding guilt over what you didn't choose to save. If it's purely out of your hands, then it doesn't hurt so much.

[Maria Caliban]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

That's easy.

The difficulty part is making the player give an actual damn about it.

Indeed.

[Savber100]

Mass Effect 3 tried this with Kai Leng defeating Shepard. In Dragon Age 2, they killed off Leandra with some random mage dude.

And you know what? It was lame.

The key is to not cheat the player through some cutscenes or some magical McGuffin but to have the antagonist beat not only your character but the player himself so that he can sit back and go "damn this is my fault."

[Doctoglethorpe]

Dude, what the hell.  Coincidences cannot be this rediculous.  I just finished watching DKR for the first time not 10 minutes ago, very first thread on a completely unrelated forum, very first sentance...

Dafuq.

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 09 décembre 2012 - 10:26 .

[Lord Issa]

I agree, but I think a few things need to be kept in mind:

-Don't do this too late in the game, when the PC is at their peak strength. It just feels contrived-much better to have this happen to you when you're just starting to get powerful, only to have your progress halted by a devastating attack.

-Don't go killing off family one by one again-not because it's a bad idea per se, but because DA2 and DA:O did this to death and I feel that doing it again wouldn't have an effect.

-Don't make it due to 'cutscene incompetence'. Simply make the AI and skills of the foe too powerful to be outmatched. This way, the player gets a taste of what they'll be like when they get tougher and also the foe seems credible.

[Eilaras]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

Jade Empire gave us a similar point after arriving at the Palace and it was well done enough. But the game industry is so much more sophisticated these days. Such scenes can be so much more powerful now. (KOTOR had a smaller scale version on the Leviathan where the world was turned upside down).

I'd just personally enjoy this a lot. Far too often in RPGs you are a god. There are no real set-backs and everything can be overcome by gameplay. Throwing the PC through a ringer (especially if it's possible for the PC to be responsible for their suffering depending on your prior choices) would be a breath of fresh air.

I totally agree. This was the one thing i missed in origins, and the thing that stops it from being the perfect game. The impossible misson to raise an army, unite the land and defeat the darkspawn was just a bit, too easy. I didn`t really feel the effects of the blight, part for some burned down villages and hanged corpses.

DA2 did a much better job in this I think, altough they could have focused even more on Hawkes`emotions/reactions after his/her loss of sibling/mother. 

Modifié par Eilaras, 09 décembre 2012 - 10:39 .

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I agree..... I feel the PC is too godlike in some BW games..... Warden, Hawke, Shepard....

Although what happened to Hawke's mom in DAII was pretty freakin' jarring.....

[hobbit of the shire]

I also too did not care much for Leandra (because of her blaming me). I can see how she got riled up in the heat of the moment, but for the player, who just started the game, s/he has no connection to Leandra. So instead of knowing that mom is just venting and not meaning what she says, Hawke can take offense. At least I did. The result is being less than loving to mom and that messed up the emotional impact of her death. Silbling dying at the beginning would have been more crushing later in the game, but not at the start when .... who is this person???

Breaking the PC? Go for it. I love an emotional rollercoaster ride. I'd be game for less sarcastic immature haha Hawke and more serious/mature dialogue. Funny how you talk about the Dark Knight. Compared to the earlier movies, the trilogy is not comical at all and is pretty dark. While some fun high fantasy is good, having this other dark, breaking mood and dilemmas... that gets the blood going.

The game that I have played the most often is the one where, when I first played it, I had to stop for a while and basically get my bearings again because of what was happening to the PC. So, yeah, go for it.... I thought DA2 had some potential, but basically most stuff happened on a superficial or basic level and never ramped up the emotions too much. e.g., I'm trying to be pretty mean to Merrill and she is still so damn nice and okay with it. You know, I won't let you fix the mirror, you should like throw stuff at me, steal the item, use blood magic on me, get depressed or give Hawke the silent treatment for the rest of the game. She never gets angry for long and when you click on her she's always talking about her messy house! What if something happens to her as a result of Hawke's actions? If Hawke cares about her at all, I bet s/he'd be pretty guilty. I'd love to see an action totally backfire like this.

[Dutchess]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

That's still no excuse and it didn't endear me to her at all. In fact, I disliked her more and more everytime I replayed it.

Perhaps your PC shouldn't have been a jerk right after Carver's dead, choosing either the sarcastic joke option or the insensitive "let's move on" aggressive one. When you pick the nice/diplomatic option there, Leandra doesn't lash out at you.

[KiwiQuiche]

renjility wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

That's still no excuse and it didn't endear me to her at all. In fact, I disliked her more and more everytime I replayed it.

Perhaps your PC shouldn't have been a jerk right after Carver's dead, choosing either the sarcastic joke option or the insensitive "let's move on" aggressive one. When you pick the nice/diplomatic option there, Leandra doesn't lash out at you.

God forbid I don't want the rest of Hawke's family killed.

[Fredward]

This thread is vaguely masochistic. Just vaguely mind.

[KiwiQuiche]

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

I agree..... I feel the PC is too godlike in some BW games..... Warden, Hawke, Shepard....

Although what happened to Hawke's mom in DAII was pretty freakin' jarring.....

Lol do you do realize Hawke and Shepard fail pretty badly at many things in their series, Hawke especially?

[Parmida]

renjility wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They tried that in DA2 with Leandra's death.
Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke. What an utterly horrible parent.

A purely emotional reaction made in a moment of despair that she later acknowledges was wrong. I didn't take it personally and neither should you.

That's still no excuse and it didn't endear me to her at all. In fact, I disliked her more and more everytime I replayed it.

Perhaps your PC shouldn't have been a jerk right after Carver's dead, choosing either the sarcastic joke option or the insensitive "let's move on" aggressive one. When you pick the nice/diplomatic option there, Leandra doesn't lash out at you.

Well, to be honest I really don't care about Leandra as well I even started hating Leandra, Carver and Bethany. Leandra's and sibling's death didn't move me an inch but for roleplaying purposes I went along with depressed Hawke.