233 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

syllogi wrote...

Inserting a ton of misery and angst into the game does not automatically equal good writing and/or an emotional connection with the audience.

When I'm playing a video game, I don't mind having trials and tribulations (I mean, even Harvest Moon has obstacles to overcome), but part of a trial is the ability to affect events. When your sibling and mother die, and you cannot do anything about that in DA2, it doesn't feel like the player is connected to the story. If, for instance, the way my character had completed the serial killer questline had impact upon whether Leandra lived or died, (or even how she died, or if others would die in her place) that would have made me feel invested. And it would have been one of those plot lines talked about on the forums for ages, when people wonder what other players did in that situation. Instead, the conversation about All That Remains is basically "oh, that was sad" or "I didn't care about Leandra anyway."

Ending the game with a dead or broken character with no other options is pretty dissatisfying too. It feels like the writers are thumbing their noses at the players when they pull a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" on us. I'd rather not play a game if I feel like the creators are scornful of the consumers of their product.

I agree with you 100%.
Something I truly dislike  is when at the end of the story doesn't really ends, they hang, and leave you with a sense of wonder and "what happens next".

I don't mind being left hanging if the story is going to continue but if is the End, then give me a proper Ending and a resolution of the plot. Ambiguity can be done well, but it still kind of annoys me in most cases.

[Fishy]

Huntress wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Inserting a ton of misery and angst into the game does not automatically equal good writing and/or an emotional connection with the audience.

When I'm playing a video game, I don't mind having trials and tribulations (I mean, even Harvest Moon has obstacles to overcome), but part of a trial is the ability to affect events. When your sibling and mother die, and you cannot do anything about that in DA2, it doesn't feel like the player is connected to the story. If, for instance, the way my character had completed the serial killer questline had impact upon whether Leandra lived or died, (or even how she died, or if others would die in her place) that would have made me feel invested. And it would have been one of those plot lines talked about on the forums for ages, when people wonder what other players did in that situation. Instead, the conversation about All That Remains is basically "oh, that was sad" or "I didn't care about Leandra anyway."

Ending the game with a dead or broken character with no other options is pretty dissatisfying too. It feels like the writers are thumbing their noses at the players when they pull a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" on us. I'd rather not play a game if I feel like the creators are scornful of the consumers of their product.

I agree with you 100%.
Something I truly dislike  is when at the end of the story doesn't really ends, they hang, and leave you with a sense of wonder and "what happens next".

I don't mind being left hanging if the story is going to continue but if is the End, then give me a proper Ending and a resolution of the plot. Ambiguity can be done well, but it still kind of annoys me in most cases.

The problem is that ... If you failed this scene ... You would just reload a previous save and do it correctly. They scripted it because they wanted it to happens. In real life also there's plenty of thing you can't control. The only difference is that in real life you don't have a loading option.

''It's not you fault .. Stop blaming yourselves''.

So of course in a video game you can answer - Of course not .. It's was scripted ! If it's was not scripted you would just do redo the same scene over and over until you have it figured.. Which is what we call meta-gaming.. BioWare want to tell a story also.

The hardest choice it's when they give you one but, both are bad. That give you the feeling of having option even if both are bad. But even than ... People would complain. For instance save your mother, but the bad guy got away and later kill your romance.. Than you would complain about it.. So how do you make it fair ?

Simple answer .. Make it a movie  or a book. But it's a video game with ''choice'' and a loading button. It's different. You just have to accept it or make your own rule.

Modifié par Suprez30, 09 décembre 2012 - 06:22 .

[TheRealJayDee]

MichaelStuart wrote...

Wouldn't work.
I can't feel sorry for stuff that happens to a fictional character.

Please try playing The Walking Dead game and tell me if your statement stands.

Valadras21 wrote...

Furthermore DA:O had that lovely situation with Ser Cauthrien, where you could actually beat the NPCs and avoid capture. Like ME3's Thessia, the writers could have made Cauthrien and her small army beat the PC in a cutscene, but they didn't. You get a really tough fight but if you're awesome enough you can win.

One of my favourite moments regarding this scene was talking to a friend who played the game about a year after me and a lot of my other friends. He was like "Do you know which NPC I really liked? Loghain's female knight minion. She was awesome, such a shame I had to kill her. Tough **** she was, hard fight. But I got a a nice sword out of it." I said "Yeah... just so that you know - I surrendered to her." He made a wtf face and asked "seriously, you could do that?". Another friend chimed in "I met her again before the Landsmeet and had to kill her there" and I told them about how I talked my way out of that second confrontation. The way Ser Cauthrien was handled had everything Kai Leng as an enemy was missing.

Valadras21 wrote...

I think the important thing to remember is that despite the stories, these are still video games. If I am playing the game and killing dozens of darkspawn at a time, trouncing blood mages, and slaying Dragons, I would not be able to accept one or two guys defeating my character in a cutscene, because I know my character could handle those odds if I could control him. I think it's important that the protagonist suffer personal losses and even defeats throughout the story, but DO NOT take away control of my character and make him into a moron to achieve it.

Very much so! This is a real problem - gameplay shows that the PC is an unstoppable killing machine, yet he ocassionally suffers cutscene defeats for dramatic purposes that seem ridiculous compared to everything else. 

[Annihilator27]

Yes, Push the PC into a corner!!!

[HiroVoid]

Starting to remind me of some 'Tales of ...' cutscenes.

'Well, I just killed over two dozen guards on my way here.'
'OH NO! Now five guards came out of that room and have me surrounded. I must surrender!'

[Tinu]

This was handled very well in Mass Effect 3. I've cried a lot. I was devastated that nobody could cure Thane or that I couldn't keep Miranda safe (first play through). I was pissed of when I Kai Leng got the better of me and I really blamed that on Ashley, because she wasn't delivering at all.

[Sibu]

Zobo wrote...

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

I agree..... I feel the PC is too godlike in some BW games..... Warden, Hawke, Shepard....

Although what happened to Hawke's mom in DAII was pretty freakin' jarring.....

On a contrary I felt Hawke was too much of a loser in DAII. Got his brother killed, his mother killed, got his sister taken away to the Gallows for years (also got her back in the end, so a major victory for Hawke here, I give him that), got tricked by Corypheus and is responsible for unleashing that horror to the world of Thedas, went herp-derp with Tallis and gave her secret documents instead of killing off a dangerous Qunary spy, lost his estate and fleed some place unknown loosing all his comrades on the way except for the LI after siding with mages instead of staying as a revolutionary leader. Hawk's life mostly sucked and his story turned up to be a story of losses, failure and misery instead of a rise to power story as it has been advertised.

Then Shepard was a joke in ME3 final. At least before EC. EC gave him some of his guts and pride back, yet still he has ultimately lost no matter the ending.

Like i said before:

In other words, you want to play as a self insert mary sue that every single NPC worships and faps to...

Good Lord, i hope nobody in this forum is a writer... you people suck

[Sylvius the Mad]

thats1evildude wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's entirely up to the player what his PC takes personally.

I'm not making a statement on player agency, Sylvius. I'm telling her that human beings sometimes say stupid things in the midst of grief, like when they're cradling the body of their dead children. You don't take it personally because their emotions are running wild.

Unless I happen to think that people should be able to control their emotions under all circumstances, and see any failure to do so as unforgivable.

For that PC, the scene doesn't work.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 décembre 2012 - 08:14 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Yup and an utterly horrible thing to say to your child.

That's still no excuse and it didn't endear me to her at all. In fact, I disliked her more and more everytime I replayed it.

Oh my god this instantly made me dislike her. Yeah she lost a child but blaming another one of her children for it.. WHAT? That's someone being a really awful parent. She do of course apologize for it but the damage is already done and there's just no way to mend it

Just to make note, I have had the misfortune of seeing a mother learn that her 17 year old son has been unexpectedly killed.

What I like about Leandra's reaction is that it's real. I don't call my Mom a horrible parent because in the immediate aftermath of learning her son was dead she was delirious with grief and considered my Dad partially responsible because it was my Dad that encouraged my brother to learn to ride the motorbike and it was my Dad's idea to go visit my grandmother on the motorbike. Had none of that happened, they wouldn't have been caught in a bad storm while on their motorbikes which unfortunately led to an accident that took my brother's life.

If you're to ask her now (18 years later) of course she realizes it was an unfortunate accident and no one is at fault. If you ask her at the moment (18 seconds later) she's hurt and angry and irrational.

[Zobo]

Sibu wrote...

Zobo wrote...

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

I agree..... I feel the PC is too godlike in some BW games..... Warden, Hawke, Shepard....

Although what happened to Hawke's mom in DAII was pretty freakin' jarring.....

On a contrary I felt Hawke was too much of a loser in DAII. Got his brother killed, his mother killed, got his sister taken away to the Gallows for years (also got her back in the end, so a major victory for Hawke here, I give him that), got tricked by Corypheus and is responsible for unleashing that horror to the world of Thedas, went herp-derp with Tallis and gave her secret documents instead of killing off a dangerous Qunary spy, lost his estate and fleed some place unknown loosing all his comrades on the way except for the LI after siding with mages instead of staying as a revolutionary leader. Hawk's life mostly sucked and his story turned up to be a story of losses, failure and misery instead of a rise to power story as it has been advertised.

Then Shepard was a joke in ME3 final. At least before EC. EC gave him some of his guts and pride back, yet still he has ultimately lost no matter the ending.

Like i said before:

In other words, you want to play as a self insert mary sue that every single NPC worships and faps to...

Good Lord, i hope nobody in this forum is a writer... you people suck

Em, how about nope, I don't want to be worshipped or fapped to.
I had no problems with DAO for example. Does the Warden counts as a Mary Sue?

[The Elder King]

Yeah, the Warden should be counted as a Mary Sue.

[mousestalker]

Some life advice: No matter how hard it is for you, do not judge someone as to how they grieve and do not take anything to heart that they say to you in those first few moments.

I too found Leandra's reaction realistic.

[Wulfram]

Zobo wrote...

Does the Warden counts as a Mary Sue?

Yes, pretty much.  At least with a stereotypically "good" playthrough.

[The Elder King]

I agree with Allan Shumacher and mousestalker: Leandra's reaction was realistic, and I didn't feel angry because of what she said to my PC after the sibling's death.

[AtreiyaN7]

Lathrim wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Some life advice: No matter how hard it is for you, do not judge someone as to how they grieve and do not take anything to heart that they say to you in those first few moments.

I too found Leandra's reaction realistic.

Agreed.

And thirded - I've seen this on at least one show, which shall remain nameless in case the following is a spoiler (it kind of is, really).

The protagonist's brother was killed, and his mother blamed him for her younger son's death. She was rightfully upset and her initial reaction was understandable, including the distancing/blame that went on for a while. Mom and the protagonist have more or less reconciled at this point - it just took a fair bit of time, and there's still a lot of hurt there despite things getting better.

I found Leandra's reaction entirely realistic and not something to be held against her forever and ever.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 09 décembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Zobo]

hhh89 wrote...

Yeah, the Warden should be counted as a Mary Sue.

Wulfram wrote...

Zobo wrote...

Does the Warden counts as a Mary Sue?

Yes, pretty much.  At least with a stereotypically "good" playthrough.

Well, then I'm all for a Mary Sue. Whatever.
Because I enjoyed being the Warden much more than being Hawk.
Also I'm not sure what "a stereotypically "good" playthrough" is. Does the one with dead Alistair counts? Because that's my canon.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

hhh89 wrote...

Yeah, the Warden should be counted as a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is someone who is loved by almost everyone and their flaws are always ignored.

A mage/elf/dwarf is hardly loved and discriminated left and right. The only true Mary Sue is a Cousland.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 09 décembre 2012 - 09:25 .

[Wulfram]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

A Mary Sue is someone who is loved by almost everyone and their flaws are always ignored.

A mage/elf/dwarf is hardly loved and discriminated left and right. The only true Mary Sue is a Cousland.

Only thoroughly unsympathetic characters dislike the elf/mage/dwarf warden, so it if anything enhances their sueishness

Zobo wrote..

Also
I'm not sure what "a stereotypically "good" playthrough" is. Does the
one with dead Alistair counts? Because that's my canon.

No. 

Actually, sparing Loghain reduces the Warden's sueishness considerably, because then you actually have a good guy character disagreeing with them strongly, rather than being doormattish as almost every non-villain is to a character with high persuasion.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Wulfram wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

A Mary Sue is someone who is loved by almost everyone and their flaws are always ignored.

A mage/elf/dwarf is hardly loved and discriminated left and right. The only true Mary Sue is a Cousland.

Only thoroughly unsympathetic characters dislike the elf/mage/dwarf warden, so it if anything enhances their sueishness

Loghain is sympathetic and he dislikes you. The dalish elves are sympathetic in the forest and they dislike a non-dalish warden.  Cullen is sympathetic character and he dislikes you if you side with the mage.

[Lord Issa]

I really, really don't understand the Leandra hate. If one of the people I loved most in the world died suddenly, I really don't see myself being very reasonable for at least a few moments. She had a perfectly reasonable reaction.

[Pedrak]

Unfortunately what the OP suggests, while potentially interesting from a narrative point of view, typically translates in terms of game mechanics to:

1) taking away the PC's inventory;
2) isolating him/her from the rest of the party;
3) putting him/her in some dungeon or in an otherwise restricted area where he has to escape from, which signals a shift in the focus of the game from exploration and freedom to dungeon-crawling and mandatory fights;
4) you lose access to your stronghold.

As a RPG player, what I enjoy most are freedom and interacting with party members, and I've always found that taking away the stuff  you have laboriously looted and stolen throughout the game is kind of a lazy way of raising the stakes. Basically, you'd have to work to re-build what you had already managed to obtain throughout the game (full party, inventory, stronghold).

It's narratively compelling, but not so enjoyable to play through. I can see myself playing that part and thinking "I can't wait I get my party back, and my weapons, and my stronghold... and to get out of this damn dungeon where they put me" and so on. I can see people dreading that particular section of the game when they replay it.

So I'm doubtful.

Modifié par Pedrak, 09 décembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[MichaelStuart]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

Wouldn't work.
I can't feel sorry for stuff that happens to a fictional character.

Please try playing The Walking Dead game and tell me if your statement stands.

OK

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 09 décembre 2012 - 10:00 .

[Rorschachinstein]

You didn't really get to know your sibling that early on in the game to actually give a damn if they died.

Now if it was near the end of the game, and they died tragically, then seeing character cry would be more fitting..