233 réponses à ce sujet

[labargegrrrl]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

And face the same "I didn't CARE that Hawke's siblings died because I didn't, like, form an emotional attachment!"

Nah, le breaking definitely should take place later in the game.

Not at the end though, since it's only one game per PC.

Dark middle chapters can work.

Yeah. Preferably a series of crushing defeats after a really satisfying victory. Or maybe after you've reached the height of complacency and you think all your ducks are in a row and then BAM.

If I don't feel disorientated and lost, with possible long term emotional trauma, the devs aren't doing their job. XD

LOVE this line of thought.  the idea of my pc having it all together and then getting gutted midway through a playthrough?  loosing almost everything but the clothes on their back, having to start from scratch?  

it SERIOUSLY gives me the tingles.  

there were a few points in the prior da games when i would have loved it if that happened.  like, what if we'd utterly FAILED to get anything done at landsmeet in dao?  just had to take the rest of our army and take on the blight all by our lonely warden selves.  i'm not above admitting i still dream about it.  and i seriously thought i was screwed when the architect got us in daa.  was marginally disappointed in how easy it was to escape that fiasco.  and would have loved to see hawke loose her fortune halway through act ii.

i say take the gloves off, quit implying threat of total and ultimate loss around every corner, and actually make our pc's experience the full impact of it.  but that's just me...

EDIT:  actually, i just got to thinking about this...just realized that in da3, loosing everything could meen loosing the CASTLE!  so scratch all that, it's a bad idea.  EPIC bad.  the levels of heartbreak i would experience would be so utterly devistating that it's not worth it. 

Modifié par labargegrrrl, 11 décembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[wsowen02]

As long as it's done well and allows some input from the player.

See ME3 telling me my Shepard felt bad about vent boy as an example of how NOT to do this.

[Twisted Path]

I really hope the game does not have heavy-handed melodrama like Frankenmom in DA2 or Earth Boy from the beginning of Mass Effect 3. Those scenes were so painfully forced that I think they brought out more cringing and/or laughter from players than genuine emotion.

[Fredward]

Twisted Path wrote...

I really hope the game does not have heavy-handed melodrama like Frankenmom in DA2 or Earth Boy from the beginning of Mass Effect 3. Those scenes were so painfully forced that I think they brought out more cringing and/or laughter from players than genuine emotion.

I'd agree with Zombie Mom but Ventboy actually got me in the feels. I mean I could SEE the hope in Shepard's eyes when she saw that kid get in the flying car thing and then BOOM he dead. And then, and then my Shepard be all ike "you'll pay for that Reapers" but with her EYES man! XD

Zombiemom COULD have worked but it was just so... I dunno. Rushed? It was like "lol my mom died. TIME TO KILL THE ARISHOK!" That quest "Captain's Condolences" or whatever where Aveline tells you that story about her dad? Now that **** was touching. Probably one of my favorite scenes in ANY game, it was really nice. But other than that it was like your companions, and everyone else for that matter (including Hawke), didn't really care.

[Nefla]

I would love this if it was well done and actually made me feel something. I hated Leandra's death in DA2 because it was just so random and stupid. (and VERY anime) Not only that, but she wasn't very developed as a character and had such a bland personality, they were pretty much relying on the fact that most people have a mother irl and could think "oh I'd be so sad if my mom died!" (or their mom really has died irl and it brings up their actual sadness)Same thing in ME3, Shepard angsts about some kid you see for 2 seconds before he dies for the entire game. You're beaten over the head with "It's a little kid, FEEL SAD DAMN YOU!!!" since in real life it is especially tragic when a child dies, but again it was so random and pointless, you really don't feel anything for the kid.

[Thor Rand Al]

thesnake777 wrote...

OP I have to say with the Noble origin story I was plenty pissed off by my family estate being burnt to the ground..and everybody I ever knew as a child being brutally murdered....I was a little blood thirsty from then on out..

I also though the Jade Empire betrayal was well done. I remember first time through I was furious.

I am sure Bioware will make something devastating happen to us in this on.

Ya but the thing about Noble Origin is we really didn't get a chance to actually get more into those characters before they passed away.  Never played Jade Empire but the way they did DA2 with mom was an emotional rollercaster because of the fact that you got to spend more time with mom.  

N since I saw it said that Bioware wants to hurt us, I only have one thing to say... PLEASE DO... LOL

[Steppenwolf]

This is one of the few things ME3 did well. Cerberus constantly undermining Shepard became so infuriating in a motivational way for me.

[TK514]

I'm sure this has been said before, but they do this twice, back to back in the beginning of DA:O with your origin and then with Ostagar, then do it again in the opening of DA II with the death of your sibling.

And that's just the openings.

The DA writers are not afraid to screw you over, repeatedly.

"Ok, guys.  I think we've just about got things calmed down here in Kirkwall.  I'm at least respected, if not liked, by both parties, so I think there's a diplomatice solu - dammit, Anders!"

Modifié par TK514, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:22 .

[Nerevar-as]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

OP I have to say with the Noble origin story I was plenty pissed off by my family estate being burnt to the ground..and everybody I ever knew as a child being brutally murdered....I was a little blood thirsty from then on out..

I also though the Jade Empire betrayal was well done. I remember first time through I was furious.

I am sure Bioware will make something devastating happen to us in this on.

Ya but the thing about Noble Origin is we really didn't get a chance to actually get more into those characters before they passed away.  Never played Jade Empire but the way they did DA2 with mom was an emotional rollercaster because of the fact that you got to spend more time with mom.  

N since I saw it said that Bioware wants to hurt us, I only have one thing to say... PLEASE DO... LOL

If you aren´t spoiled for Jade Empire then you should play it at once. It was great, especially when I noticed how the seeming inconsistencies where actually part of a master plan.

I did care more for my HN Warden´s family than for Leandra, I found hard to care for her (let´s go to a city full of templars! I got family who can do nothing to protect my mage child from them! And that´s before you know Gamlem lost all the Amell properties). I did like Carver, but playing as a mage broke all immersion.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
I'd agree with Zombie Mom but Ventboy actually got me in the feels. I mean I could SEE the hope in Shepard's eyes when she saw that kid get in the flying car thing and then BOOM he dead. And then, and then my Shepard be all ike "you'll pay for that Reapers" but with her EYES man! XD

Puh-lease..that scene was so fake and contrieved. It was so obviously stanged it hurt.
And that is the biggest problem with such scenes - when you ignore everything else to get that "drama".

"Joker, get us out of here".
"Aye commander. Setting speed to 1/1000th...and leaving the door open for a minute so you can look. Also ignoring the reapers around me and they ignoring me."

[LarryDavid]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

Jade Empire gave us a similar point after arriving at the Palace and it was well done enough. But the game industry is so much more sophisticated these days. Such scenes can be so much more powerful now. (KOTOR had a smaller scale version on the Leviathan where the world was turned upside down).

I'd just personally enjoy this a lot. Far too often in RPGs you are a god. There are no real set-backs and everything can be overcome by gameplay. Throwing the PC through a ringer (especially if it's possible for the PC to be responsible for their suffering depending on your prior choices) would be a breath of fresh air.

Good idea! I such a case I think following scenario should do the trick


(a) The main villain (MV) becomes the MV in the beginning of the game by doing what MVs do (threatining world peace and things like that)

( In the middle of the game, the MV kills a NPC that is close to you (like Bodhan)

© Around 3/4th of the game the MV kills a follower (preferably your LI).

(d) Almost at the end of the game, you come home to find that the MV has ransacked your castle. While you (and the followers you took with you) clear your castle from the few remaining enemies, you find your precious castle-upgrates destroyed, your chambermaids raped and killed, your gaurds staked and servents stabbed to dead. When going further in you start encountering followers, some burned, some hanged, but all clearly showing signs of being severly tortured before being put to dead. In the last room you then find one follower that has survived the attack but with every bone in the body broken and both hands chopped off. This follower can provide more details about the attack or maybe relay a message from the MV.

(e) After this surprise only one or two missions should remain because otherwise, not being able to change your party, would become to annoying. Also, the short time-span between (d) and the end of the game makes it rather cheap (resource-wise) to include a lot of dialog that spans a wide range of possible reactions to (d).


A possible extentions to this scenario can be that the player can influence who dies in ( and © and that it becomes possible to save 1 follower (intact) in (d) by making certain chooses.

[In Exile]

There's no way any of that works without the PC being weak.

[Sol Downer]

LarryDavid wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

Jade Empire gave us a similar point after arriving at the Palace and it was well done enough. But the game industry is so much more sophisticated these days. Such scenes can be so much more powerful now. (KOTOR had a smaller scale version on the Leviathan where the world was turned upside down).

I'd just personally enjoy this a lot. Far too often in RPGs you are a god. There are no real set-backs and everything can be overcome by gameplay. Throwing the PC through a ringer (especially if it's possible for the PC to be responsible for their suffering depending on your prior choices) would be a breath of fresh air.

Good idea! I such a case I think following scenario should do the trick


(a) The main villain (MV) becomes the MV in the beginning of the game by doing what MVs do (threatining world peace and things like that)

( In the middle of the game, the MV kills a NPC that is close to you (like Bodhan)

© Around 3/4th of the game the MV kills a follower (preferably your LI).

(d) Almost at the end of the game, you come home to find that the MV has ransacked your castle. While you (and the followers you took with you) clear your castle from the few remaining enemies, you find your precious castle-upgrates destroyed, your chambermaids raped and killed, your gaurds staked and servents stabbed to dead. When going further in you start encountering followers, some burned, some hanged, but all clearly showing signs of being severly tortured before being put to dead. In the last room you then find one follower that has survived the attack but with every bone in the body broken and both hands chopped off. This follower can provide more details about the attack or maybe relay a message from the MV.

(e) After this surprise only one or two missions should remain because otherwise, not being able to change your party, would become to annoying. Also, the short time-span between (d) and the end of the game makes it rather cheap (resource-wise) to include a lot of dialog that spans a wide range of possible reactions to (d).


A possible extentions to this scenario can be that the player can influence who dies in ( and © and that it becomes possible to save 1 follower (intact) in (d) by making certain chooses.

What kind of weak-ass followers did you put on your team for that to happen...? My goodness, look at it all!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mortal ones?

[Sol Downer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mortal ones?

Mortality is for the weak.

[Todd23]

Ultimashade wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mortal ones?

Mortality is for the weak.

Thanks for that shems.

[Urazz]

Foolsfolly wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

OP I have to say with the Noble origin story I was plenty pissed off by my family estate being burnt to the ground..and everybody I ever knew as a child being brutally murdered....I was a little blood thirsty from then on out..

I also though the Jade Empire betrayal was well done. I remember first time through I was furious.

I am sure Bioware will make something devastating happen to us in this on.

My one complaint about the human noble origin is how long it takes to come back around to that. It's got a lot of emotion in the beginning, your brother may be dead or hurt or fine.... but forget about all that. There's 50 hours of gameplay before you see Howe again and you only see your brother at the very end of the game.

The set-up was good... the pay off wasn't.

The only reason why the human noble origin pay-off was bad was because we had several other origins.  Imagine if DA:O actually had only the human noble origin.  They really could've worked this into the main storyline more I think.

That's one of the bad things about having multiple origins/races.  You end up sacrificing specifics and tie-ins to the main story in my opinion.

Modifié par Urazz, 12 décembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[d4eaming]

LarryDavid wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

Jade Empire gave us a similar point after arriving at the Palace and it was well done enough. But the game industry is so much more sophisticated these days. Such scenes can be so much more powerful now. (KOTOR had a smaller scale version on the Leviathan where the world was turned upside down).

I'd just personally enjoy this a lot. Far too often in RPGs you are a god. There are no real set-backs and everything can be overcome by gameplay. Throwing the PC through a ringer (especially if it's possible for the PC to be responsible for their suffering depending on your prior choices) would be a breath of fresh air.

Good idea! I such a case I think following scenario should do the trick


(a) The main villain (MV) becomes the MV in the beginning of the game by doing what MVs do (threatining world peace and things like that)

( In the middle of the game, the MV kills a NPC that is close to you (like Bodhan)

© Around 3/4th of the game the MV kills a follower (preferably your LI).

(d) Almost at the end of the game, you come home to find that the MV has ransacked your castle. While you (and the followers you took with you) clear your castle from the few remaining enemies, you find your precious castle-upgrates destroyed, your chambermaids raped and killed, your gaurds staked and servents stabbed to dead. When going further in you start encountering followers, some burned, some hanged, but all clearly showing signs of being severly tortured before being put to dead. In the last room you then find one follower that has survived the attack but with every bone in the body broken and both hands chopped off. This follower can provide more details about the attack or maybe relay a message from the MV.

(e) After this surprise only one or two missions should remain because otherwise, not being able to change your party, would become to annoying. Also, the short time-span between (d) and the end of the game makes it rather cheap (resource-wise) to include a lot of dialog that spans a wide range of possible reactions to (d).


A possible extentions to this scenario can be that the player can influence who dies in ( and © and that it becomes possible to save 1 follower (intact) in (d) by making certain chooses.

What the hell. I would not play that game

I am all for kidnapping followers or love interests, perhaps make it last longer than the one in DA2 (Fenris got kidnapped? I'll have him back in five minutes). And rescuing a tortured and mutilated companion... uggg.

That doesn't sound remotely fun to me. I like contention and conflict, and people getting hurt, but losing a companion that is not completely avoidable, no. It's annoying enough for stupid Isabela to leave, locking me out of game content because I'm not friend-enough with her (and I have to play against type in order to even keep her in the party as half her disaproval makes no sense to me- got everyone else figured out though).

It's not at all that I am against characters being hurt. I have a character missing three fingers due to a childhood accident, another one that because of his appearance is a kill-on-sight target, but that is in fiction I control completely. In my games, danger is good, but I don't want it to be overwhelming. Playing ME, knowing what happens in 3, takes a bit of compartmentolising (and a tiny bit of meta-gaming- Saemus Shepard WILL get his paws on Kaidan, at least for a while :innocent:, so guess who has to die?).

But anyway, ^^^that whole idea, no no no.

[Felya87]

LarryDavid wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I'm going to just blame this on The Dark Knight Rises but I hope, I mean really hope, that at some point in DA3 the villain(s) devestate the protagonist.

I mean kills your loved ones, sacks your castle, breaks your spirit, usurp your intelligence network, and scatters your team to the four winds. Just a real real low point for the character to either get out of and become stronger for it or, since why not, remain bitter and broken from for the rest of the game.

Jade Empire gave us a similar point after arriving at the Palace and it was well done enough. But the game industry is so much more sophisticated these days. Such scenes can be so much more powerful now. (KOTOR had a smaller scale version on the Leviathan where the world was turned upside down).

I'd just personally enjoy this a lot. Far too often in RPGs you are a god. There are no real set-backs and everything can be overcome by gameplay. Throwing the PC through a ringer (especially if it's possible for the PC to be responsible for their suffering depending on your prior choices) would be a breath of fresh air.

Good idea! I such a case I think following scenario should do the trick


(a) The main villain (MV) becomes the MV in the beginning of the game by doing what MVs do (threatining world peace and things like that)

( In the middle of the game, the MV kills a NPC that is close to you (like Bodhan)

© Around 3/4th of the game the MV kills a follower (preferably your LI).

(d) Almost at the end of the game, you come home to find that the MV has ransacked your castle. While you (and the followers you took with you) clear your castle from the few remaining enemies, you find your precious castle-upgrates destroyed, your chambermaids raped and killed, your gaurds staked and servents stabbed to dead. When going further in you start encountering followers, some burned, some hanged, but all clearly showing signs of being severly tortured before being put to dead. In the last room you then find one follower that has survived the attack but with every bone in the body broken and both hands chopped off. This follower can provide more details about the attack or maybe relay a message from the MV.

(e) After this surprise only one or two missions should remain because otherwise, not being able to change your party, would become to annoying. Also, the short time-span between (d) and the end of the game makes it rather cheap (resource-wise) to include a lot of dialog that spans a wide range of possible reactions to (d).


A possible extentions to this scenario can be that the player can influence who dies in ( and © and that it becomes possible to save 1 follower (intact) in (d) by making certain chooses.

...if you fail to make your castle a fortress and didn't train your guards, if you fail to make all your followers strong, or don't train yous character in some skill (or don't have with you the right character, like, for example, a healer) if you make A LOT of bad choise or ignore most of the important side quest with a relevance (like don't kill powerful enemies who are under the command of your enemy who could be killed before the attak) and so on, ok.

It would be exactly like the ME2 final. Everything depend on how you played the game. just more longer.

If is just for the sake of being a depressed emo...NO! there are already Fenris and Anders for that.

But I'd like to see a scene where the companions think the PC is dead and instead is just very badly hurt.

[Kenshen]

After reading several of the posts here I couldn't help but think of FF10 and how that story flows from begining to end. While I do love that game I admit to being frustrated several times. I remember catching myself yelling at the tv for Tidus to just tell her. Even though I figured out how the game would end it was still bitter sweet to see it and yeah it did make me sad. While we do get to defeat the bad guy at the end the whole game is a teaser when it comes to Tidus and Yuna. However I have a feeling a teased romance would not go over very well around here me thinks.

[Insomniak]

They were able to make the "Get Out of Jail" card work in Origins. You didn't have to choose between Connor and Isolde - you could save them both if you chose to save the Circle first and have them help you.

[Foolsfolly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wynne wrote...

The problem is, for there not to be a get out of jail free card doesn't make it more interesting either, and on top of that, it takes our choice away.

Then we agree that whether it is meaningful and interesting is less affected by whether or not there is a choice involved?


It's one thing to say you want more choice (more content is typically never considered bad) in how you respond, or things that lead up to it, or even the ability to go to people and say this is a concern. You can provide all those options and choices whether or not Leandra could be saved.

Frankly, though, I like the idea that not everything works out the way that I would like it to. For some that isn't acceptable (the type that feel if they put in the effort to prevent it, it should be preventable, or they wasted their time), but as a gamer I am perfectly okay with that.

For me, choice lies with what I intend the character to do. That the realities of the world presented in front of me don't allow that to happen is still okay for me.

Holy crap I agree.

I get the concern the others are bringing up. No one likes RPGs that so on rails that nothing you do matters. But this isn't that issue. In video games given a choice between Good Thing and Bad Thing most people will go with the good thing. Making many of the so-called hard choices rather simple.

And gameplay mechanics will always lead the character you're playing as the most proficent person in the universe. Because they can kill scores of monsters, knights, and everything else in their way without deforming and destroying their bodies.

This means the only way to add any real drama is to have bad things happen to the PC and the PC's loved ones. And that doesn't 'take control away from the player' having bad things happen to you still means you can control how you react to these set backs. And that's where the role-playing comes in!

[Kileyan]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Wynne wrote...

The problem is, for there not to be a get out of jail free card doesn't make it more interesting either, and on top of that, it takes our choice away.

Then we agree that whether it is meaningful and interesting is less affected by whether or not there is a choice involved?


It's one thing to say you want more choice (more content is typically never considered bad) in how you respond, or things that lead up to it, or even the ability to go to people and say this is a concern. You can provide all those options and choices whether or not Leandra could be saved.

Frankly, though, I like the idea that not everything works out the way that I would like it to. For some that isn't acceptable (the type that feel if they put in the effort to prevent it, it should be preventable, or they wasted their time), but as a gamer I am perfectly okay with that.

For me, choice lies with what I intend the character to do. That the realities of the world presented in front of me don't allow that to happen is still okay for me.

Holy crap I agree.

I can't agree. This is not an uncommon response from Bioware.

Bioware has responded frequently that they think a game choice that has a good outcome is a bad thing. Bioware is so worried about players choosing good outcomes that they seem to be intently focused on making sure that the best way to encourage players to choose other outcomes is to make sure that all the outcome are equally undesirable.

This is being done in the guise of giving player "real" choice, but in the end it just trading a good choice for 3 so so crappy choices. Bioware is so worried about a certain choices being the defacto player choice, that they are making all the choices just choices the player don't want to make, but have to choose one.

Used sparingly I don't mind the occasional no good choice, but designing a game around forcing all the choices to be the grey areas, is going to become a game series where your YOUR CHOICES MATTER ..........a little bit. Oh and none of those choices are the ones you wanted to make, but you have to choose one!

Modifié par Kileyan, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Though to be fair I really started disliking Leandra when she was a b!tch enough to try and blame Carver's death on Hawke.

Wasn't this moments after Carver died!?

Yup and an utterly horrible thing to say to your child.

If in DA3 they kill off people that are to cause the PC grief, at least make them likable.

Horrible, yes. A perfectly believable human reaction, also yes. Something to damn the character over for the rest of her life? I would say no, but that's just me. Leandra is a sympathetic character who is afterwards quite supportive of her remaining children.

Plus Hawke is the older sibling. It's understandable that Leandra would expect him/her to protect their younger sibling and lash out at him/her for failing to do so since there is absolutely no one else for her to take out her grief and shock-induced anger on. This is the sort of realistic writing I am all in favour of because it adds depth and complexity to characters.

[Lotion Soronarr]

So many people who can't stomach bad things they can't avoid in a game. Seriously?
Does the death of a few pixels really cause you that much rage?