As a forewarning, this is a strictly philosophical post, and I'm only posting because it is something that I have given some thought, and would be interested in seeing what others might think. I am not here to discuss the writing skills of DG's team.
Now, on to the issue. It is stated that tranquil do not have emotions, but on several occasions tranquil have spoken of their "preferences", Owain as a person of note. This seems somewhat contradictory to me, because the way I see it, the only motivations a person would have for striving to fulfil a set of preferences would be specific emotions triggered by the fulfilment of said preferences. Even want could be argued to be an emotion by itself, could it not? If you keep going down that line though, you end up with the tranquil being nothing more than mindless drones, and that, as I understand, is a potentially inflammatory issue*. And from the tranquil I have spoken to in the game, apart from a few in the Gallows of Kirkwall, I can pretty confidently say that they generally anything but mindless.
So what makes the tranquil more than a mindless drones, if not emotions? One could say that reason and logic would rule in the absence of emotion, and I would be inclined to agree, but without emotion, I don't think a person would even have a want to use logic and reason, as weird as that sounds. And believe me, I do think that's the weirdest thing I have ever written or said, but even so I believe that it's the truth. I'm the kind of guy that would sometimes wish I could do without emotions.
*Just to make it clear: I do not want to discuss whether the Rite of Tranquillity is right or wrong; justified or not. I know where I stand on the issue, and I know that there are people who would disagree emphatically.
P.S.: I did warn you that this was going to get philosophical.
P.P.S.: I want to stress that anyone wishing to discuss the quality of the game writers' work or anything except the philosophical implications of the tranquil, kindly take it outside this thread.
Tranquil and emotions.
Débuté par
Thomas Andresen
, déc. 09 2012 06:06
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#2
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 06:32
Daerog
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I don't think Tranquil are wholly cut off from emotions, they aren't fully cut off from the Fade either it seems, but it is just significantly reduced.
One could say that Owain is in the room because it is open and a logical thing to be in a recognizable place when in danger, but he would need the drive for survival to have that in the first place, I would think. I just think that the more passionate emotions are buried in the Tranquil and allows them to have logic prevail over feelings or behavioral reactions.
Honestly, when is someone not in an emotion? One is bored, excited, content, happy, sad, mad, disgusted, pleased, anxious, etc. When does feeling end and emotion begin? We can talk about them as separate things, but don't they go hand in hand?
Only way I can think of a being without emotions is if they lack free will and are running off complete programming. Insects, bacteria, single cell organisms, and computers are the only things that "function" without emotion (as far as I know), but humans (elves, dwarves, things capable of reason) are far more complex than those things so it isn't a good comparison. Tranquil can obviously think for themselves and make choices not based on any progamming.
One could say that Owain is in the room because it is open and a logical thing to be in a recognizable place when in danger, but he would need the drive for survival to have that in the first place, I would think. I just think that the more passionate emotions are buried in the Tranquil and allows them to have logic prevail over feelings or behavioral reactions.
Honestly, when is someone not in an emotion? One is bored, excited, content, happy, sad, mad, disgusted, pleased, anxious, etc. When does feeling end and emotion begin? We can talk about them as separate things, but don't they go hand in hand?
Only way I can think of a being without emotions is if they lack free will and are running off complete programming. Insects, bacteria, single cell organisms, and computers are the only things that "function" without emotion (as far as I know), but humans (elves, dwarves, things capable of reason) are far more complex than those things so it isn't a good comparison. Tranquil can obviously think for themselves and make choices not based on any progamming.
#3
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 06:50
Thomas Andresen
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Feelings and emotions certainly are deeply intertwined, but I wouldn't call them synonyms, precisely. As an additional question, do tranquil lack empathy and/or sympathy?
#4
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 06:58
Firky
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Oh. I love the Tranquil even more than the qunari.
I don't know if I have any answers, though. Just more questions. It's pure philosophy to my mind. Or maybe some kind of bio-psychology.
Like, I don't get how "free will" works without emotions driving that. Do Tranquil lack empathy? I never got that impression from the game, and some of it may be tied up with old memories, but why shouldn't they? (Why shouldn't they lack empathy?)
I like the comparison with single celled organisms etc. (Although I don't know much about that.) But, if a Tranquil were being attacked with something that was causing physical pain, would they run away? I would have assumed fear would make someone run away, not pain, but maybe that's incorrect.
(I'll just read. I don't know if I have much else to add.
)
I don't know if I have any answers, though. Just more questions. It's pure philosophy to my mind. Or maybe some kind of bio-psychology.
Like, I don't get how "free will" works without emotions driving that. Do Tranquil lack empathy? I never got that impression from the game, and some of it may be tied up with old memories, but why shouldn't they? (Why shouldn't they lack empathy?)
I like the comparison with single celled organisms etc. (Although I don't know much about that.) But, if a Tranquil were being attacked with something that was causing physical pain, would they run away? I would have assumed fear would make someone run away, not pain, but maybe that's incorrect.
(I'll just read. I don't know if I have much else to add.
)
#5
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 07:15
AmstradHero
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As someone who has written mods featuring Tranquil, and hence has had to take a significant look at them and how they approach their thought processes, here's my take:
A Tranquil doesn't really have any significant emotion, but that does not mean that they have no moral conscience. Ultimately, in most cases, the Tranquil are probably "good". They respect life, want to see it preserved, don't like unnecessary pain and suffering. If this wasn't the case, then they probably would have been put to death by the Templars instead of being made tranquil.
As such, the Tranquil still have morals, but approach them from a logical and dispassionate viewpoint. Imagine a computer or AI program. It's been told that it must preserve life, but it may calculate that 2 people have to die in order to save ten. From the Tranquil's standpoint, since emotion doesn't come into the picture, they'd happily commit murder and kill those two people in order to save ten.
In essence, I guess it what I'm saying is that Tranquil have ingrained preferences or moral stances from which they approach life, either from before they were Tranquil or that they have been told or have learned to accept based on their pre-existing knowledge/logic, and they pursue those from a purely calculated viewpoint.
As for empathy, I wouldn't say that they lack empathy entirely, but again, that they have difficulty with it because they're approaching it from a calculated and non-emotional viewpoint. I'd imagine it more like someone with Asperger's or autism, where they can't necessarily pick up on the social cues, but might be able to attempt to understand someone by translating actions into their own set of values. Where there's a mismatch, they're going to fail to demonstrate any kind of empathy.
A Tranquil doesn't really have any significant emotion, but that does not mean that they have no moral conscience. Ultimately, in most cases, the Tranquil are probably "good". They respect life, want to see it preserved, don't like unnecessary pain and suffering. If this wasn't the case, then they probably would have been put to death by the Templars instead of being made tranquil.
As such, the Tranquil still have morals, but approach them from a logical and dispassionate viewpoint. Imagine a computer or AI program. It's been told that it must preserve life, but it may calculate that 2 people have to die in order to save ten. From the Tranquil's standpoint, since emotion doesn't come into the picture, they'd happily commit murder and kill those two people in order to save ten.
In essence, I guess it what I'm saying is that Tranquil have ingrained preferences or moral stances from which they approach life, either from before they were Tranquil or that they have been told or have learned to accept based on their pre-existing knowledge/logic, and they pursue those from a purely calculated viewpoint.
As for empathy, I wouldn't say that they lack empathy entirely, but again, that they have difficulty with it because they're approaching it from a calculated and non-emotional viewpoint. I'd imagine it more like someone with Asperger's or autism, where they can't necessarily pick up on the social cues, but might be able to attempt to understand someone by translating actions into their own set of values. Where there's a mismatch, they're going to fail to demonstrate any kind of empathy.
#6
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 07:38
Firky
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(Not that I'm disputing you, Amstrad. It's just an interesting point.) But, they've had a lifetime of previously being able to interpret social cues ... why shouldn't they be able to subsequently? Even if they can't engage with the emotions someone is throwing at them, wouldn't they recognise it?
Also. I can't picture a Tranquil killing anyone, even to save more. But, I'm not sure why. That's an interesting question. Maybe I just picture them at their duties, with everyone else dying around them. Actually, that was the Circle in Origins.
I don't want to provide spoilers for Asunder, but there's a moment in there where a Tranquil appears to make a - calculated ? - move. Or, possibly, for their own personal reasons.
Also. I can't picture a Tranquil killing anyone, even to save more. But, I'm not sure why. That's an interesting question. Maybe I just picture them at their duties, with everyone else dying around them. Actually, that was the Circle in Origins.
I don't want to provide spoilers for Asunder, but there's a moment in there where a Tranquil appears to make a - calculated ? - move. Or, possibly, for their own personal reasons.
#7
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 08:09
AppealToReason
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They remind me of the geth. No "real" emotions but driven by survival and the logic that accompanies it. Something that sticks in my mind is when Legion mentions attacking the Quarian liveships only because they had guns and if they were unarmed there would have been no purpose.
So no I don't think they have emotions like anger and whatever else but I think they do have instincts.
So no I don't think they have emotions like anger and whatever else but I think they do have instincts.
#8
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 08:14
jack253
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Thomas Andresen wrote...
Feelings and emotions certainly are deeply intertwined, but I wouldn't call them synonyms, precisely. As an additional question, do tranquil lack empathy and/or sympathy?
****minor spoiler for Asunder****
There is an instance where Rhys, who was worried that he might be made tranquil, asked a tranquil about how it felt to undergo the rite. After telling him that she was not allowed to speak of the rite and that she was not preparing him to undergo it, she told him that if it hurt, she no longer cared as she once knew only fear and now knows only service. I think that her response shows that tranquil are capable indeed capable of feeling sympathy but only show it on rare occasions
#9
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 11:05
Thomas Andresen
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In broad strokes, empathy is an emotional response to other peoples' emotions, and sympathy is an emotional response to other peoples' situations or circumstances. At least that's the best way I can describe them.
Consider this: would a tranquil truly feel remorse for killing a person, intentionally or not, beyond "it's such a waste of ..."? Would he or she wonder if the dead person might have had a family? Would the tranquil stop to ask themselves whether the person may or may not have led a fulfilling life?
I guess another question to consider would be how universal is the truth that the tranquil lack emotions? Are they truly completely without emotions, or do they retain some? Emotions are so deeply tied to our human nature, that when you truly think about it, it is very hard, if not impossible, to imagine leading a life devoid of emotions. I certainly cannot, however much I sometimes wish I could.
Consider this: would a tranquil truly feel remorse for killing a person, intentionally or not, beyond "it's such a waste of ..."? Would he or she wonder if the dead person might have had a family? Would the tranquil stop to ask themselves whether the person may or may not have led a fulfilling life?
I guess another question to consider would be how universal is the truth that the tranquil lack emotions? Are they truly completely without emotions, or do they retain some? Emotions are so deeply tied to our human nature, that when you truly think about it, it is very hard, if not impossible, to imagine leading a life devoid of emotions. I certainly cannot, however much I sometimes wish I could.
#10
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 12:28
JCAP
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Thomas Andresen wrote...
Consider this: would a tranquil truly feel remorse for killing a person, intentionally or not, beyond "it's such a waste of ..."? Would he or she wonder if the dead person might have had a family? Would the tranquil stop to ask themselves whether the person may or may not have led a fulfilling life?
Remorse is an emotion, so I think he wouldn't feel it, maybe he could comment "what a waste" (if it was intentional) or "I'm sorry" (if it was an accident), BUT he would only comment it if someone was watching, just to not be seen as a cold killer.
I don't know about the other 2 questions, because those doubts (if he had a family or not) are a manifestation of curiosity, although it is not an emotion, I never met a tranquil "curious" about something (correct me if I am wrong). But I am inclined to believe that they wouldn't wonder about that.
Thomas Andresen wrote...
I guess another question to consider would be how universal is the truth that the tranquil lack emotions? Are they truly completely without emotions, or do they retain some? Emotions are so deeply tied to our human nature, that when you truly think about it, it is very hard, if not impossible, to imagine leading a life devoid of emotions. I certainly cannot, however much I sometimes wish I could.
I think that is one mystery that we never find out, like Sandal. But... I am inclined to believe that they don't retain any emotion... Look how the Anders friend was desperate to die when he come back to normal. (the tranquil)
Modifié par JCAP, 09 décembre 2012 - 12:29 .
#11
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 01:59
whykikyouwhy
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I get the sense that in being cut off from the Fade, the Tranquil are not so much severed from their emotional core, as they are no longer dominated by it - or rather, they are separated from certain, more powerful emotions.
In the codex entry for the Tranquility amulet, you find this:
"Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer."
Having been someone who was plagued by fear and nightmares before the Rite, Orana later creates something to establish some sense of peace - that almost speaks to having empathy for those who might have suffered as she had.
In the codex entry for Journal of the Tranquil, there is this:
"Thus, we Tranquil are vital. The young and old may stare at me, ill at ease, but they would be worse off without me. They may think me a failure, but there is no horror for me now. I feel no fear of what I am. The shadows are merely shadows, and I am content."
The focus in both of these examples seems to be on the distance from fear, from the threat of becoming some horror. The Tranquil become, perhaps, more governed by logic and reason - emotions, in whatever degree that they may exist, take a backseat, and remain so unless the situation (and the personality of the Tranquil) dictates. I suspect that there are degrees for how the Rite affects individuals.
In the codex entry for the Tranquility amulet, you find this:
"Orana saw the Rite of Tranquility as a gift, although many mocked her for this view. Later in life, she created an amulet to remind her of the Rite. She named it Tranquility. The Tranquility Amulet soothes the mind and imparts a general sense of well-being to its wearer."
Having been someone who was plagued by fear and nightmares before the Rite, Orana later creates something to establish some sense of peace - that almost speaks to having empathy for those who might have suffered as she had.
In the codex entry for Journal of the Tranquil, there is this:
"Thus, we Tranquil are vital. The young and old may stare at me, ill at ease, but they would be worse off without me. They may think me a failure, but there is no horror for me now. I feel no fear of what I am. The shadows are merely shadows, and I am content."
The focus in both of these examples seems to be on the distance from fear, from the threat of becoming some horror. The Tranquil become, perhaps, more governed by logic and reason - emotions, in whatever degree that they may exist, take a backseat, and remain so unless the situation (and the personality of the Tranquil) dictates. I suspect that there are degrees for how the Rite affects individuals.
#12
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 03:28
Navasha
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I see them as completely unemotional myself. Pure logic, but still an organic mind filled with very complex algorithms and all the previous memories.
For instance, we all know that a computer runs purely off logic with no emotion. However, we can program a computer to recognize patterns in peoples behavior. Trembling voices, nervous shaking, anxious head movements. The computer could still understand that the person is experiencing fear, even if it doesn't understand what fear actually entails.
A Tranquil still has all its memories. It still remembers what it was like to be afraid, so it has a ton more information than the computer. It just no longer experiences it. So becoming a Tranquil isn't suddenly making them a robot or mindless, but it has removed all their emotions. Remembering what an emotion feels like or being able to recognize that emotion in others, doesn't mean they are experiencing it themselves.
Best example I can think of is take the news. You can go to the internet right now and pull up a story about someone being tragically killed. Most of us don't feel much of anything reading that story, because we didn't know them. Sure, if we think about it we can imagine the grief that the parents/wife/husband/brother/sister must be feeling, but there is no attachment of emotions. That is what the Tranquil feel for everything, even people they know.
For instance, we all know that a computer runs purely off logic with no emotion. However, we can program a computer to recognize patterns in peoples behavior. Trembling voices, nervous shaking, anxious head movements. The computer could still understand that the person is experiencing fear, even if it doesn't understand what fear actually entails.
A Tranquil still has all its memories. It still remembers what it was like to be afraid, so it has a ton more information than the computer. It just no longer experiences it. So becoming a Tranquil isn't suddenly making them a robot or mindless, but it has removed all their emotions. Remembering what an emotion feels like or being able to recognize that emotion in others, doesn't mean they are experiencing it themselves.
Best example I can think of is take the news. You can go to the internet right now and pull up a story about someone being tragically killed. Most of us don't feel much of anything reading that story, because we didn't know them. Sure, if we think about it we can imagine the grief that the parents/wife/husband/brother/sister must be feeling, but there is no attachment of emotions. That is what the Tranquil feel for everything, even people they know.
Modifié par Navasha, 09 décembre 2012 - 03:28 .
