73 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

I think it is easy to have an air of objectivity when you are not part of the group that is being spoken against. It is not that Mr. Card will use the comic to spread his hate.. it is that he will use the money he gets from the comic to spread his message of intolerance and hatred.



I will make the assumption that his supporters on this thread are not gay. It is a different perspective when you are the object of someone's disdain.



By not supporting the comic and doing what little they can to assist in its low sales.. those who oppose Mr. Card send a statement to Bioware that they do not want Mr. Card brought on board. If there are enough.. it will be felt and Bioware will respond. The bottom line is important to any company.



Note: I already stated I have no real interest in the comic in the first place. I can see both parties' opinions.



It is like a person who starts marching for cancer because someone in their family has died of cancer. Beforehand.. they couldn't care less about it.. but as soon as someone in thier life is afflicted with that terrible disease.. suddenly, thier perspective alters and it becomes an important cause.



Neither person is inherently wrong.. but I would suggest one of these groups has an expanded perception of the world around them.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Deran2 wrote...

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

I don't understand why so many people view OSC as such a masterful writer in the first place.

Yes, he wrote Ender's Game, one excellent young adult book, and then he wrote Ender's Shadow a less-excellent but still pretty good young adult book.

Other than that, his work is all mediocre at best, at least what I've read and sampled. There are loads better sci-fi and fantasy authors out there and furthermore they do not have as ignorant or hateful views. I could list them: Neil Gaiman, Tad Williams, John Scalzi, M.T. Anderson (albeit he is not exclusively sci-fi), William Gibson. If I include comics authors the list goes on: Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Garth Ennis, Brian K. Vaughn, Devin Grayson, Mark Waid, Bill Willingham.

I don't know why he's so lauded. One great work does not a great author make. So, for me, it isn't very difficult to turn down a DA:O comic from who I consider to be a greatly overrated and mostly mediocre author. It only makes it easier when I know what a d*ck he is in real life as well.

I've been enjoying Speaker for the Dead. I really like the way Card does space travel, its a lot more logical than most SciFi authors that I've read. Though I really like Mike Carey and Chistopher Yost's takes on the stories.

Speaking of Gaimen I just started reading Sandman, freaking brilliant. I read Anasi Boys last year and got American Gods for Christmas. I need to pick up some Ennis stuff one of these days, I keep hearing good things. Anything in particular you recommend?

Being scientifically accurate does not make one a great writer of Sci-Fi  (Though if your science is completely f*cked, it can certainly hurt it.  But even then some franchises get away with really soft, loose sci-fi due to its tone  e.g. Doctor Who)  But I digress.

Preacher.  Read Preacher.  My personal favorite comic series ever written (though admittedly I often switch back and forth between that and Sandman).  The Boys is entertaining, but Ennis is really just having fun at the expense of the superhero genre when he writes that series.  Preacher is deeper and more significant, though it is also greatly entertaining and funny as well.  Basically, it's perfect.

But now we're off-topic entirely, PM me if you want to discuss anything further.

[Godak]

Tassiaw wrote...

Ravenshrike wrote...

Game called on account of Hitler. Thread over.

The original thread got Godwin'd like 7 times.

The whole concept of Godwinning is completely idiotic. It just gives people an excuse to avoid the issue at hand and post funny pictures.

[Ravenshrike]

Medhia Nox wrote...it is that he will use the money he gets from the comic to spread his message of intolerance and hatred.
 

Highly unlikely, seeing as all the venues in which he's so far 'spread his message' have been either free or ones that paid him to do so.



As for the legitimacy of Godwinning, if the comparison is valid then a thread isn't Godwinned. The vast majority of the time however people attempt to use extreme hyperbole when comparing someone to Hitler so as to create an ad hominem attack against the poster/object of comparison. Since OSC has neither written a treatise on how we should kill all the homosexuals and steal their stuff or attempted a government takeover in these strained economic conditions, any Hitler comparison is not particularly apt.

Modifié par Ravenshrike, 07 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[OldMan91]

The problem is not with the skill of the writer or that the writer himself is against gay rights. If I pay for the comic, the writer will receive a share of the money I paid and use it to fund his anti-gay activities.



That is something I simply won't do.

[uberman409]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think it is easy to have an air of objectivity when you are not part of the group that is being spoken against. It is not that Mr. Card will use the comic to spread his hate.. it is that he will use the money he gets from the comic to spread his message of intolerance and hatred.

I will make the assumption that his supporters on this thread are not gay. It is a different perspective when you are the object of someone's disdain.

By not supporting the comic and doing what little they can to assist in its low sales.. those who oppose Mr. Card send a statement to Bioware that they do not want Mr. Card brought on board. If there are enough.. it will be felt and Bioware will respond. The bottom line is important to any company.

Note: I already stated I have no real interest in the comic in the first place. I can see both parties' opinions.

It is like a person who starts marching for cancer because someone in their family has died of cancer. Beforehand.. they couldn't care less about it.. but as soon as someone in thier life is afflicted with that terrible disease.. suddenly, thier perspective alters and it becomes an important cause.

Neither person is inherently wrong.. but I would suggest one of these groups has an expanded perception of the world around them.

What you said initially is... because us non-gays aren't getting discriminated against, we can maintain an air of objectivity.

Technically, that's a good thing. Objectivity is always good. Y'all should be objective in judging things like this.

[Merlik]

I will be giving the comic a try, if it is good, I will continue to buy it.

[Medhia Nox]

Uberman, I also suggested that this objectivity is largely based on apathy.. you don't need to care, so you may not. It is not "your problem".



Per my example.. if you were gay, or had someone close to you who was.. you would likely have a broader perspective.



A broad perspective is as beneficial as objectivity.

[uberman409]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Uberman, I also suggested that this objectivity is largely based on apathy.. you don't need to care, so you may not. It is not "your problem".

Per my example.. if you were gay, or had someone close to you who was.. you would likely have a broader perspective.

A broad perspective is as beneficial as objectivity.

I'm far from apathetic, and I am friends with multiple homosexuals who are friends of my mother. The gays I know are amongst the coolest, and always bring about an enjoyable weekend when they visit. In addition, you're suggesting that I don't have enough perspective on the matter, when I do. I have a very adamant position on Gay Rights, they their sexual preferences are as valid as my own. However, my OBJECTIVE argument still stands, that withholding your 20 dollars won't matter, and that all it does is show a value of the artist's opinions over his art.

My reasoning for the first half of the argument is that it's a nice gesture, but impractical. The pleasure you derive from the comic could outweigh the displeasure you derive from the author's crackpot opinions. It's, as a result, ineffective because he doesn't spend money spreading his nonsense, he can do it all for free. Now that he's somewhat well known, he has the opportunity to say things, and they'll be picked up by the media whether you or I want them to. I didn't want to know that Tiger Woods was a cheating slimeball, but I learned anyway. The media will pick up on the discrepancies of the relatively famous, even those as insignificant as "famous" golfers, and there is nothing that we can do about it.

His BS will get out. I don't want it to, but it won't affect this comic, and there is nothing we can do about it. Ergo, the LOGICAL thing to do is to get the comic if you think you'll like it, and if you don't think you'll like it, then don't get it. If he was discriminating against those of Jewish descent, I'd still buy the comic, because though his opinions would be harebrained, I'd enjoy the comic. It's that simple.

The second half of my argument is rather simple. If you value, positively or negatively, his opinions, if you give them weight to such an extent that it overpowers your enjoyment of the art he produces, then you as normal human beings must have some deep-seated insecurities about yourself and the aspect of yourself that he discriminates against. Either that, or you consider him a threat. His ideas are so outdated and moronic in that regard, so absolutely radical when there isn't any major event to back up the radicalism, that no one will listen to him. The only people who will listen to him are those who give his opinions enough weight to stymie their enjoyment of his work.

I'm unsure as to whether I should be insulted by your claim, false as it is, as I loathe having falsehoods claimed about me and mine. However, I do not know whether or not you're actually accusing me of these things, and as such I'm not going to bother getting angry, merely point out that I neatly refuted them.

[uberman409]

He's not dangerous! Since when has ANYONE listened to Orson Scott Card on matters of gay rights? Jesus Christ! It's like I'm talking to a wall.

[Default137]

uberman409 wrote...

Your argument is irrelevant for one simple reason: At the end of the day, BioWare gets to say what gets in and what doesn't. He is working for them, to their satisfaction. I cannot stress this enough, and that BioWare would LET Card completely rape their characters makes no sense whatsoever. You underestimate BioWare.

The reason I care, is because if I can stop one person from making a decision for stupid reasons then I will. The stupid reason in question is your lack of faith in BioWare, your ignorance of normal quality control. The buck stops with BioWare. They can tell him to bugger off, just like George Lucas told Karen Traviss when she moaned about him retconning all of her fandalorian madness.

http://forgottenreal...om/wiki/Jaheira

http://forgottenreal...com/wiki/Khalid

http://forgottenreal...ki/Abdel_Adrian

Should I do KotOR or Mass Effect as well? The books Bioware had commisioned for those games also portrayed characters far differently then how they acted in game, I could also do Planescape Torment, but that was less so Bioware, and moreso Black Isle.

Where the heck are you getting this information that Bioware has the last laugh when it comes to who writes their books/comics? The only time they've EVER been written by a Bioware employee, or had any signs of even being worked on with Bioware checking in was The Stolen Throne and The Calling, every other book, comic, or any other artistic venue about their games has always been done by a third party they hired for the job, and then left them to their own devices, and it shows.

In the ME books, most of the fermales don't even exist, Kaiden has a huge part, but is totally different then how he is in game, and Wrex is an enemy, in the KotOR books, Reven kills most of his allies on "accident" then near the end of the book nearly starts a song and dance routine about how ashamed he is of his past, and how he must seek redemption for his crimes on nearly the drop of a hat, and totally on random.

I'd really like to know where you got this fool notion that Bioware will control OSC with an iron fist as he writes the entire story for these comics, and where you think it will have even any connection to the story we are going through, you can't say Gaider will be writing them, because Gaider will not be, OSC will, thats why he got hired, he's a writer you know.

[Merlik]

There are millions of people who do not agree with gay marriage, there are bound to be people at every game studio and in every walk of life that do not agree with it. Hell, the majority of voters in California didn't agree with it. Are you going to stop buying every game and stop visiting California? It is a 'very' common thing, I'm sure that bothers you, but it's true. People just don't want to talk about it really. Even the president says he is against it. Are you going to leave the United States? Does the president hate gays because he is against gay marriage? No. It's not about hate at all. I'm sure you have heard all the debates and reasons why most people are against gay marriage and you will never see it their way, but it's not about hate.



All I can say is, don't buy the book if his personal opinion bothers you that bad.

[uberman409]

Default137 wrote...

uberman409 wrote...

Your argument is irrelevant for one simple reason: At the end of the day, BioWare gets to say what gets in and what doesn't. He is working for them, to their satisfaction. I cannot stress this enough, and that BioWare would LET Card completely rape their characters makes no sense whatsoever. You underestimate BioWare.

The reason I care, is because if I can stop one person from making a decision for stupid reasons then I will. The stupid reason in question is your lack of faith in BioWare, your ignorance of normal quality control. The buck stops with BioWare. They can tell him to bugger off, just like George Lucas told Karen Traviss when she moaned about him retconning all of her fandalorian madness.

http://forgottenreal...om/wiki/Jaheira

http://forgottenreal...com/wiki/Khalid

http://forgottenreal...ki/Abdel_Adrian

Should I do KotOR or Mass Effect as well? The books Bioware had commisioned for those games also portrayed characters far differently then how they acted in game, I could also do Planescape Torment, but that was less so Bioware, and moreso Black Isle.

Where the heck are you getting this information that Bioware has the last laugh when it comes to who writes their books/comics? The only time they've EVER been written by a Bioware employee, or had any signs of even being worked on with Bioware checking in was The Stolen Throne and The Calling, every other book, comic, or any other artistic venue about their games has always been done by a third party they hired for the job, and then left them to their own devices, and it shows.

In the ME books, most of the fermales don't even exist, Kaiden has a huge part, but is totally different then how he is in game, and Wrex is an enemy, in the KotOR books, Reven kills most of his allies on "accident" then near the end of the book nearly starts a song and dance routine about how ashamed he is of his past, and how he must seek redemption for his crimes on nearly the drop of a hat, and totally on random.

I'd really like to know where you got this fool notion that Bioware will control OSC with an iron fist as he writes the entire story for these comics, and where you think it will have even any connection to the story we are going through, you can't say Gaider will be writing them, because Gaider will not be, OSC will, thats why he got hired, he's a writer you know.

No need to be a jackass. At least you can support your arguments with good reasoning.

My view is, BioWare doesn't wanna get the bad press of being gay bashers. Ergo, if OSC starts using their comic to spread his ideology, I highly doubt that they're going to tolerate it. I think that's fairly reasonable.

[Medhia Nox]

You should not be insulted Uberman.. because my addition of "may" in my statement was an affirmation on my part that I do not know you.

-----

In Addition - Merlik: Yes, if I were aware of vocal members of a group.. let's say Blizzard.. who were vehemently anti-gay.. I would immediately cease to support all members of that group. I know you're not necissarily speaking to me.

It's a case by case basis.. I'm sure someone at Bioware thinks gays are hell bound.. that's fine. I'm not aware of it.. so they are not using any form of celebrity to further their message. Mr. Card IS using his talent to further his hatred.

If I had intended to purchase the comic prior to knowning Mr. Cards stance.. it is likely I would still buy it. However, I don't comics all too often anymore.. so it would hardly go missed.

---

Concerning Bioware.. I believe they have made great strides to accomadate alternate options. I believe "some" of their claims are total BS.. but I cannot confirm my feelings and I am not the type of person to act on suspicions.

For example, the claim that "Some characters are just made to be straight." would only really seem valid to me if "Some characters were made only to be gay." If the integrity of the story was really at stake as I have seen claimed.. then gay, straight.. and perhaps most notable.. NON-sexual characters would be available.

And I'm not talking about Wrex.. or Shale. I'm talking about perfectly viable.. perhaps even desirable options. IF I was presented with a game where 1) The PC encountered a lesbian or gay man who could not be romanced by straight players. 2) A perfectly desirable character was not an object of romance. I would perhaps believe this claim of "Story First".

HOWEVER, this one criticism would not take away from 1) The expert storytelling that Bioware produces 2) The credit I feel they should be rewarded for commiting to the material they have to accomodate alternatives.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 08 janvier 2010 - 04:43 .

[uberman409]

Mmk. Thanks for the info. People tend to jump to conclusions about opponents in an argument, was just making sure.

[Suzene]

Card is a member of organizations that actively work to keep marriage the realm of heterosexuals only. I have every reason to believe that money he receives from his work has a good chance of finding its way into the coffers of these organizations. Hence, not supporting his work in any way, shape or form is a matter of self-interest so far as I'm concerned.

[Eisberg_DAO]

Personally I believe that homosexuality is an illness of the mind, that there is nothing natural about it. The stuff I have read about OSC is that he doesn't hate, but basically has the same belief as I do. I don't hate people with an illness, otherwise I would have to hate my grandparents who have Alzheimers, or some of my family members who have cancer.



Wanna know what is scary, some of the same doctors who are responsible making homosexuality a natural thing, rather then a sickness, are starting to say that some forms of pedophilia is also a healthy natural activity.

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Eisberg_DAO wrote...

Personally I believe that homosexuality is an illness of the mind, that there is nothing natural about it. The stuff I have read about OSC is that he doesn't hate, but basically has the same belief as I do. I don't hate people with an illness, otherwise I would have to hate my grandparents who have Alzheimers, or some of my family members who have cancer.

Wanna know what is scary, some of the same doctors who are responsible making homosexuality a natural thing, rather then a sickness, are starting to say that some forms of pedophilia is also a healthy natural activity.

Wow...what a crock of crap.

I'm sorry.  I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, but you are horribly misinformed.  Seriously.  Almost every major medical and psychological institution has removed homosexuality from their list of mental illnesses.  Many go so far as to specifically point out that it is harmful to someone's mental health and can force them to develop REAL disorders if you treat homosexuality as a mental illness.  

Furthermore, the current research points to a major biological (though admittedly not necessarily genetic) factor in whether or not someone is homosexual.  

And there are no doctors that don't claim pedophilia is a serious mental illness, and if they do exist, they are so far out on the fringe as to be unimportant and irrelevant (and in fact possibly mentally ill themselves).

[SpectreNihlus]

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

Eisberg_DAO wrote...

Personally I believe that homosexuality is an illness of the mind, that there is nothing natural about it. The stuff I have read about OSC is that he doesn't hate, but basically has the same belief as I do. I don't hate people with an illness, otherwise I would have to hate my grandparents who have Alzheimers, or some of my family members who have cancer.

Wanna know what is scary, some of the same doctors who are responsible making homosexuality a natural thing, rather then a sickness, are starting to say that some forms of pedophilia is also a healthy natural activity.

Wow...what a crock of crap.

I'm sorry.  I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, but you are horribly misinformed.  Seriously.  Almost every major medical and psychological institution has removed homosexuality from their list of mental illnesses.  Many go so far as to specifically point out that it is harmful to someone's mental health and can force them to develop REAL disorders if you treat homosexuality as a mental illness.  

Furthermore, the current research points to a major biological (though admittedly not necessarily genetic) factor in whether or not someone is homosexual.  

And there are no doctors that don't claim pedophilia is a serious mental illness, and if they do exist, they are so far out on the fringe as to be unimportant and irrelevant (and in fact possibly mentally ill themselves).

I agree with you with this and treating homosexuality as a psychological disease is not the right way to go however speaking from a purely evolutionary point of you there is only one reason for sex and that is to reproduce and to spread your genes you cannot do that with a same sex relationship(at leasyt not with each other)so it is in this case a dissorder, however homosexuality is definately not like pedophilia

just my 2 cents

[Mordaedil]

Godak wrote...

Tassiaw wrote...

Ravenshrike wrote...

Game called on account of Hitler. Thread over.

The original thread got Godwin'd like 7 times.

The whole concept of Godwinning is completely idiotic. It just gives people an excuse to avoid the issue at hand and post funny pictures.

Actually, it only serves to postulate that it's an argument you are discussing with too much emotional interest, because it's still too close.

Honestly, I thought your bringing in Hitler still didn't quite count as a "Godwin" situation, because you were referring to a stipulation where it's unavoidable of a grotesque outcome of the line of thought, bringing Godwin's law into effect in the later transgression.

Ergo, I think you kinda let that one go a bit too easily. <_<