202 réponses à ce sujet

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...

In origins, using two full-sized weapons is strictly inferior to using a dagger off-hand or dual-wielding daggers.

I respectfully disagree with this. It is an overstatement to say that using two full sized weapons is 'strictly inferior' to a dagger in off hand combo or dual daggers. The only difference that may be noticed is if the player is constrained to use only autoattacks. A warrior dual wielding full sized weapons and using activated talents liberally don't have to worry about autoattack speed anyway. I can't speak for everybody but personally I like using lots of talents rather than autoattacking throughout the game, and given the large number of dual weapon talents available, there is not really the issue of talents being in cooldown.


I agree with 'The Roses Thorn' being a beast, a dangerous one at that. But then for those who want to stick with full sized weapons, there's another beast, namely 'The Veshialle'. And taking advantage of the way Bodahn's stock resets after the first camp sequence, actually two Veshialle can be collected.
Given the greater attribute modifier of a waraxe, and the way attribute based damage is calculated, a waraxe would probably have more attribute based damage output with same amount of strength. Daggers would make up for this damage with the bonus critical damage modifier. But then the Veshialle also provides +10% crit/backstab modifier. The critical range of both sort of wieldings will hardly be much to account for any noticeable difference(in origins that is).

If we talk about awakening, hell yes, 'Voice is Velvet' is too good to be true, and far too shiny to be ignored. But the thing is crit/backstab modifier is capped at 3.5 and i guess this cap is attainable with Intensifying runes, find vitals, and gear, even for full sized weapons (although in my playthrough, i left it at around 3.2 as I didn't want to sacrifice my +attribute gear). Also, 100% crit chance is a given for any sort of dual wielding. And I think with the higher attribute modifier of full sized weapons, 1% of crit/backstab modifier will provide better dividends for a full sized weapon than a dagger; although I have to admit that dagger will get their damage from both str and dex, and given their autoattack speed, will rule. But again, using activated talents doesn't have anything to do with attack speed, and things will remain same for both weapon classes.

All this makes me think that two full sized weapons is not inferior in anyway than two daggers or any combo in between. It all depends upon the playstyle of the concerned person, and the gear chosen for the build.

ToxicDragon wrote...

So another small question would be how do I go about putting in the
stats? Do i put 2 in dex and 1 in str until 36 dex? or switch it every
level 2 in dex and 1 in str and then 1 in dex and 2 in str? Oh i can
still wear heavy armor right?

You'll want to get Momentum as soon as possible, so invest first in dex for that. The remaining dual weapon talents are not necessary early on, so you can prioritize on strength after that. Then fill out the Dual weapon training tree. You'll see the minimum level needed for each of these in the description, so plan accordingly. Say for example you invested in dex upto 24 for momentum, then you focussed on strength. You'd notice that dual weapon expert is available at level 9 for 26 dex, so upto level 8 go strength after 24 dex, and at level 9, fill out two dex and 1 str and get dual weapon expert. The idea is to invest points in dex only when needed, so plan it out a level or two before. Once you get DW expert, get Punisher at 28 dex and whirlwind at 30 dex when you want it, or when you think you can spare points in dex. Note that you'll need master combat training for these. Punisher and whirlwind are killer talents talents for a crit build, so I'd say you should get them. Then go up to 36 dex when you think it's time to move up to full sized weapons, or don't take it if you don't want to go two full weapons. Then pump everything into strength and nowhere else.
If you really care about armor early on, I'd say play 'Leliana's song' after your current playthrough (Sorry for spoilers). You'll have a wonderful light armor for early levels in your DW playthrough. When you move to higher levels you can equip any massive armor you want and give your light armor to your rogue.

[dainbramage]

Blazomancer wrote...

I respectfully disagree with this. It is an overstatement to say that using two full sized weapons is 'strictly inferior' to a dagger in off hand combo or dual daggers. The only difference that may be noticed is if the player is constrained to use only autoattacks. A warrior dual wielding full sized weapons and using activated talents liberally don't have to worry about autoattack speed anyway. I can't speak for everybody but personally I like using lots of talents rather than autoattacking throughout the game, and given the large number of dual weapon talents available, there is not really the issue of talents being in cooldown.


I agree with 'The Roses Thorn' being a beast, a dangerous one at that. But then for those who want to stick with full sized weapons, there's another beast, namely 'The Veshialle'. And taking advantage of the way Bodahn's stock resets after the first camp sequence, actually two Veshialle can be collected.
Given the greater attribute modifier of a waraxe, and the way attribute based damage is calculated, a waraxe would probably have more attribute based damage output with same amount of strength. Daggers would make up for this damage with the bonus critical damage modifier. But then the Veshialle also provides +10% crit/backstab modifier. The critical range of both sort of wieldings will hardly be much to account for any noticeable difference(in origins that is).

Starfang/rose's thorn and veshialle/rose's thorn do nearly exactly the same damage. At level 25 veshialle has a slight edge against unarmoured targets, while starfang's AP helps it slightly against armoured targets. Regardless, they do the same damage to about 1%.

Anyway, what that's leading to is that both of those outdamage dual veshialles for every single talent except sweep (which can't crit). Especially for cripple, punisher and riposte which have guaranteed crits, the rose's thorn's +crit damage is too damn good. But even when it's lower (though reaching 40+ unsupported is possible, and over 50% with a bard), you can still get higher damage per hit with rose's thorn, on top of auto-attacking faster.

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...

Starfang/rose's thorn and veshialle/rose's thorn do nearly exactly the same damage. At level 25 veshialle has a slight edge against unarmoured targets, while starfang's AP helps it slightly against armoured targets. Regardless, they do the same damage to about 1%.

Anyway, what that's leading to is that both of those outdamage dual veshialles for every single talent except sweep (which can't crit). Especially for cripple, punisher and riposte which have guaranteed crits, the rose's thorn's +crit damage is too damn good. But even when it's lower (though reaching 40+ unsupported is possible, and over 50% with a bard), you can still get higher damage per hit with rose's thorn, on top of auto-attacking faster.

Armor Penetration is not really an issue when a mage with 'Telekinetic Weapons' is brought along. I had 32 AP while dual wielding Veshialles which is more than enough for origins. In Awakening, AP is obsolete with Spirit warrior.

'Critical chance' and 'Critical damage modifier' has nothing to do with each other.

While dual wielding Veshialle, I managed to reach 51.10% critical chance without Leliana's SoC. With SoC on, it went to 61. So critical chance is actually more than Starfang/Rose's Thorn combo.

My 'Critical range' or 'Critical Damage Modifier' was 210%, or 2.1, or +60%, whatever way you want to say it. This is from Cailan's Gauntlets, Warden Commander Armor Chestpiece, The Wicked Oath in addition to the bonus on the Veshialle.
It is only less by 10% from a Starfang/Rose's Thorn combo.

In case you missed on my previous post, the attribute based damage of daggers for the same amount of dex/str is less than that of full sized weapons. Even swords have less attribute modifier(100%) than waraxes(110%). So, that extra 10% crit/backstab damage that a Starfang/Rose's Thorn set up possess makes no difference, when we are talking about using activated talents. At best it would become similar, and I doubt that.

[dainbramage]

-double-
grr, wasn't showing up

Modifié par dainbramage, 12 décembre 2012 - 10:01 .

[dainbramage]

Blazomancer wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

Starfang/rose's thorn and veshialle/rose's thorn do nearly exactly the same damage. At level 25 veshialle has a slight edge against unarmoured targets, while starfang's AP helps it slightly against armoured targets. Regardless, they do the same damage to about 1%.

Anyway, what that's leading to is that both of those outdamage dual veshialles for every single talent except sweep (which can't crit). Especially for cripple, punisher and riposte which have guaranteed crits, the rose's thorn's +crit damage is too damn good. But even when it's lower (though reaching 40+ unsupported is possible, and over 50% with a bard), you can still get higher damage per hit with rose's thorn, on top of auto-attacking faster.

Armor Penetration is not really an issue when a mage with 'Telekinetic Weapons' is brought along. I had 32 AP while dual wielding Veshialles which is more than enough for origins. In Awakening, AP is obsolete with Spirit warrior.

'Critical chance' and 'Critical damage modifier' has nothing to do with each other.

While dual wielding Veshialle, I managed to reach 51.10% critical chance without Leliana's SoC. With SoC on, it went to 61. So critical chance is actually more than Starfang/Rose's Thorn combo.

My 'Critical range' or 'Critical Damage Modifier' was 210%, or 2.1, or +60%, whatever way you want to say it. This is from Cailan's Gauntlets, Warden Commander Armor Chestpiece, The Wicked Oath in addition to the bonus on the Veshialle.
It is only less by 10% from a Starfang/Rose's Thorn combo.

In case you missed on my previous post, the attribute based damage of daggers for the same amount of dex/str is less than that of full sized weapons. Even swords have less attribute modifier(100%) than waraxes(110%). So, that extra 10% crit/backstab damage that a Starfang/Rose's Thorn set up possess makes no difference, when we are talking about using activated talents. At best it would become similar, and I doubt that.

I understand all that. Also note that I said starfang/rose's thorn was very similar to veshialle/rose's thorn. It's 20% less crit damage than that, and compared to starfang/thorn it's missing +6 damage and +2.5 AP, as well as the 10% crit damage.

None of that stops the fact that, when you do the maths, starfang/rose's thorn talents still do slightly higher damage than double veshialle.

EDIT: OK, that was for doing the calculations at level 18, since the stuff I started was based on discobird's thread. At 25, double veshialle does technically pull ahead over starfang/thorn. By about 0.5% (with punisher averaging 390 damage vs 388). That still doesn't make up for the much weaker autoattack.

Modifié par dainbramage, 12 décembre 2012 - 10:19 .

[MegaToxic]

Blazomancer wrote...

dainbramage wrote...

In origins, using two full-sized weapons is strictly inferior to using a dagger off-hand or dual-wielding daggers.

I respectfully disagree with this. It is an overstatement to say that using two full sized weapons is 'strictly inferior' to a dagger in off hand combo or dual daggers. The only difference that may be noticed is if the player is constrained to use only autoattacks. A warrior dual wielding full sized weapons and using activated talents liberally don't have to worry about autoattack speed anyway. I can't speak for everybody but personally I like using lots of talents rather than autoattacking throughout the game, and given the large number of dual weapon talents available, there is not really the issue of talents being in cooldown.


I agree with 'The Roses Thorn' being a beast, a dangerous one at that. But then for those who want to stick with full sized weapons, there's another beast, namely 'The Veshialle'. And taking advantage of the way Bodahn's stock resets after the first camp sequence, actually two Veshialle can be collected.
Given the greater attribute modifier of a waraxe, and the way attribute based damage is calculated, a waraxe would probably have more attribute based damage output with same amount of strength. Daggers would make up for this damage with the bonus critical damage modifier. But then the Veshialle also provides +10% crit/backstab modifier. The critical range of both sort of wieldings will hardly be much to account for any noticeable difference(in origins that is).

If we talk about awakening, hell yes, 'Voice is Velvet' is too good to be true, and far too shiny to be ignored. But the thing is crit/backstab modifier is capped at 3.5 and i guess this cap is attainable with Intensifying runes, find vitals, and gear, even for full sized weapons (although in my playthrough, i left it at around 3.2 as I didn't want to sacrifice my +attribute gear). Also, 100% crit chance is a given for any sort of dual wielding. And I think with the higher attribute modifier of full sized weapons, 1% of crit/backstab modifier will provide better dividends for a full sized weapon than a dagger; although I have to admit that dagger will get their damage from both str and dex, and given their autoattack speed, will rule. But again, using activated talents doesn't have anything to do with attack speed, and things will remain same for both weapon classes.

All this makes me think that two full sized weapons is not inferior in anyway than two daggers or any combo in between. It all depends upon the playstyle of the concerned person, and the gear chosen for the build.

ToxicDragon wrote...

So another small question would be how do I go about putting in the
stats? Do i put 2 in dex and 1 in str until 36 dex? or switch it every
level 2 in dex and 1 in str and then 1 in dex and 2 in str? Oh i can
still wear heavy armor right?

You'll want to get Momentum as soon as possible, so invest first in dex for that. The remaining dual weapon talents are not necessary early on, so you can prioritize on strength after that. Then fill out the Dual weapon training tree. You'll see the minimum level needed for each of these in the description, so plan accordingly. Say for example you invested in dex upto 24 for momentum, then you focussed on strength. You'd notice that dual weapon expert is available at level 9 for 26 dex, so upto level 8 go strength after 24 dex, and at level 9, fill out two dex and 1 str and get dual weapon expert. The idea is to invest points in dex only when needed, so plan it out a level or two before. Once you get DW expert, get Punisher at 28 dex and whirlwind at 30 dex when you want it, or when you think you can spare points in dex. Note that you'll need master combat training for these. Punisher and whirlwind are killer talents talents for a crit build, so I'd say you should get them. Then go up to 36 dex when you think it's time to move up to full sized weapons, or don't take it if you don't want to go two full weapons. Then pump everything into strength and nowhere else.
If you really care about armor early on, I'd say play 'Leliana's song' after your current playthrough (Sorry for spoilers). You'll have a wonderful light armor for early levels in your DW playthrough. When you move to higher levels you can equip any massive armor you want and give your light armor to your rogue.

Okay, I hope i am understadning this correctly when i start a game as a DW warrior i should put all 5 points into dex right away correct? and then some str or dex until i get 24 and then some in str? I just want to double check because i don't want to mess up stats. I wont need to do anything with cunning right? 

Those weapons that you mentioned are they acquired from sub quests? I will deinitely play Leliana's song for that gear (I am saving all the DLC for my second playthrough). Now this gear will be unlocked in my origins play as a DW warrior i am assuming? 

I know RPGs are supposed to be a "you play the way you want" type of thing but im the kind of person who doesn't like to mess up a character and then have a lot of trouble because i didn't build it right.

Agian I want to thank you all for answering my many many questions!!

[dainbramage]

The Rose's Thorn - buy from the semi-crazy guy in orzammar
Starfang - from warden's keep DLC
Veshialle - from bodahn in camp

EDIT: And you're worrying much too much about the order to get stats in

Modifié par dainbramage, 13 décembre 2012 - 01:37 .

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...
That still doesn't make up for the much weaker autoattack.

Well, the autoattacks aren't weaker as they'll crit often just as any other set up, it's only slower. I agree that if we are only to autoattack, a dual dagger or dagger/sword setup will have more DPS than a full weapon/full weapon setup. But as I have been mentioning since my first post regarding this sub-topic, autoattack speed doesn't matter when somebody's just using activated talents. Hence, my initial disagreement to the notion that 'two full sized wepons are strictly inferior'.

And if we are to talk maths, I think the Wiki page on Combat Mechanics is a good source for the formulae involved in damage calculations. Even Discobird has given the same formula concisely for a crit:
C * (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y ) + O - A

Here attribute modifier or X is 1.10 for axes, 1.0 for longswords and 0.425 for daggers. So an extra 10% 'C' would hardly make any difference at all. But then as you pointed out,  the +6 damage from starfang/rose's setup will add up in 'O' making up the difference somewhat. Also worth noting is the fact that the +2 strength bonus from Veshialle is more beneficial for damage than the +2 dexterity bonus from thorn's, again because of the attribute modifier issue. Hence, in my last post, I said that at best the damage would become same for both set ups. And to be clear, I'm not talking about DPS here, just damage per hit.

[Blazomancer]

ToxicDragon wrote...
Okay, I hope i am understadning this correctly when i start a game as a DW warrior i should put all 5 points into dex right away correct? and then some str or dex until i get 24 and then some in str? I just want to double check because i don't want to mess up stats. I wont need to do anything with cunning right? 

Those weapons that you mentioned are they acquired from sub quests? I will deinitely play Leliana's song for that gear (I am saving all the DLC for my second playthrough). Now this gear will be unlocked in my origins play as a DW warrior i am assuming? 

I know RPGs are supposed to be a "you play the way you want" type of thing but im the kind of person who doesn't like to mess up a character and then have a lot of trouble because i didn't build it right.

Agian I want to thank you all for answering my many many questions!!

Yes, that would do. Just remember to get momentum asap if nothing else. Make sure your cunning is 16 with fade bonuses for Coercion, no more is necessary.

All the unlockables from standalone modules will be available in your inventory from the beginning of the game, which makes the game very easy, so to speak.

It's no trouble. The folks here in the forum are real helpful, so don't hesitate to ask something you have in mind. Also there are great class guides in the relevant section you can consult. One of the best DPS calculation guides for DW rogues is already mentioned by dainbramage.

[NoForgiveness]

yes! nerds-R-us!

[MegaToxic]

Blazomancer wrote...

ToxicDragon wrote...
Okay, I hope i am understadning this correctly when i start a game as a DW warrior i should put all 5 points into dex right away correct? and then some str or dex until i get 24 and then some in str? I just want to double check because i don't want to mess up stats. I wont need to do anything with cunning right? 

Those weapons that you mentioned are they acquired from sub quests? I will deinitely play Leliana's song for that gear (I am saving all the DLC for my second playthrough). Now this gear will be unlocked in my origins play as a DW warrior i am assuming? 

I know RPGs are supposed to be a "you play the way you want" type of thing but im the kind of person who doesn't like to mess up a character and then have a lot of trouble because i didn't build it right.

Agian I want to thank you all for answering my many many questions!!

Yes, that would do. Just remember to get momentum asap if nothing else. Make sure your cunning is 16 with fade bonuses for Coercion, no more is necessary.

All the unlockables from standalone modules will be available in your inventory from the beginning of the game, which makes the game very easy, so to speak.

It's no trouble. The folks here in the forum are real helpful, so don't hesitate to ask something you have in mind. Also there are great class guides in the relevant section you can consult. One of the best DPS calculation guides for DW rogues is already mentioned by dainbramage.

Thanks! Well that is my plan once i finish my first run. 

Well Im glad to know that, I always feel like people start to get annoyed when i start asking so many questions. 


@Dain, Yes you are right i seem to be worrying way too much about stats but like i said im just a person who doesn't want to mess up. Though i believe i got it down for DW warrior DEX and STR.

Modifié par ToxicDragon, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[dainbramage]

Blazomancer wrote...

dainbramage wrote...
That still doesn't make up for the much weaker autoattack.

Well, the autoattacks aren't weaker as they'll crit often just as any other set up, it's only slower. I agree that if we are only to autoattack, a dual dagger or dagger/sword setup will have more DPS than a full weapon/full weapon setup. But as I have been mentioning since my first post regarding this sub-topic, autoattack speed doesn't matter when somebody's just using activated talents. Hence, my initial disagreement to the notion that 'two full sized wepons are strictly inferior'.

And if we are to talk maths, I think the Wiki page on Combat Mechanics is a good source for the formulae involved in damage calculations. Even Discobird has given the same formula concisely for a crit:
C * (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y ) + O - A

Here attribute modifier or X is 1.10 for axes, 1.0 for longswords and 0.425 for daggers. So an extra 10% 'C' would hardly make any difference at all. But then as you pointed out,  the +6 damage from starfang/rose's setup will add up in 'O' making up the difference somewhat. Also worth noting is the fact that the +2 strength bonus from Veshialle is more beneficial for damage than the +2 dexterity bonus from thorn's, again because of the attribute modifier issue. Hence, in my last post, I said that at best the damage would become same for both set ups. And to be clear, I'm not talking about DPS here, just damage per hit.

Yes, you can try to guess how much C and O and X and Y matter, or you can quantitatively put everything into the damage formula and see what combination ends up doing the most damage. I've done the latter. Dual Veshialles only do more damage per hit than starfang/thorn once you're at level 25, and they do essentially equal damage at level 24.

Which of these would you prefer?
~1% more talent damage at level 25 only, and 2.5% less fatigue
~20% better autoattack dps always, more talent damage at levels 1-23

You get just as good or better talent spam damage, and a significantly better autoattack with sword/dagger.

[Blazomancer]

What you are saying is impossible for the above formula, irrespective of the level. A waraxe will always have more damage per hit than a longsword or a dagger of the same tier unless the dagger or sword has some extreme bonuses, unlike what is available in the vanilla game. But then there are two other possibilities, either the formula is wrong, or I suck at elementary arithmetic.

And I actually prefer to spam talents when dual wielding a warrior, unlike a dw rogue, when I prefer to backstab. Given the sheer number of talents available, it has hardly been the case that I have to autoattack at all.

[dainbramage]

Blazomancer wrote...

What you are saying is impossible for the above formula, irrespective of the level. A waraxe will always have more damage per hit than a longsword or a dagger of the same tier unless the dagger or sword has some extreme bonuses, unlike what is available in the vanilla game. But then there are two other possibilities, either the formula is wrong, or I suck at elementary arithmetic.

And I actually prefer to spam talents when dual wielding a warrior, unlike a dw rogue, when I prefer to backstab. Given the sheer number of talents available, it has hardly been the case that I have to autoattack at all.

I think I'm gonna have to go with you sucking at arithmetic. Sorry.

Let's use starfang vs veshialle.

Starfang does 11.9 base damage, while veshialle does 9.6. Furthermore, starfang's damage range is from 1-1.5x its base damage, while veshialle's is from only 1-1.25. I.e. starfang does 11.9-17.85 base damage, whereas veshialle is 9.6-12. This alone puts starfang 4.075 base damage ahead on average.

Now as you point out, waraxes scale at 1.1 per strength, while longswords are only 1. Now for dual-wielding, the damage is chosen in the range 0.25-0.5, which averages to 0.375. That means that for every point of strength you add, veshialle gains 0.0375 more damage than starfang.

4.075/0.0375 = 108.67, which means at 119 strength a dragonbone waraxe will do more average damage than a starmetal longsword, disregarding enchantments for now. (ASIDE: waraxes are much better for a SnS user because one-handers get a bigger bonus from strength, with an average bonus of 0.625. Thus a dragonbone waraxe will overtake a starmetal longsword at 76 strength in terms of damage.) This is a rather large amount, which is unlikely to be achieved in origins, especially when a significant amount of dex is sunk into talents.

But of course that's not responsible for starfang/thorn having higher damage per hit. Daggers have notoriously low damage per hit, so how does it manage to be that high? First are the enchantments; you get +6 damage, +2.5 AP and +30% crit damage and +5% crit chance vs +20% crit damage and +10% crit chance. The first increases the damage by about 30% compared to not having them at all, and the second by only about 12%. Secondly, you have more strength. You can cut it at 24 if you want, or 26 for more crit and the dot, or 30 for every talent except expert. That's 6-10 more strength. Plus, all that dex that dual veshialles don't benefit from - thorn does. Not enough to bring it quite up to par, but enough that the stronger starfang can offset its weakness.

I was kinda surprised at first too, but it makes sense.

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...


I think I'm gonna have to go with you sucking at arithmetic. Sorry.

Let's use starfang vs veshialle.

Starfang does 11.9 base damage, while veshialle does 9.6. Furthermore, starfang's damage range is from 1-1.5x its base damage, while veshialle's is from only 1-1.25. I.e. starfang does 11.9-17.85 base damage, whereas veshialle is 9.6-12. This alone puts starfang 4.075 base damage ahead on average.

Now as you point out, waraxes scale at 1.1 per strength, while longswords are only 1. Now for dual-wielding, the damage is chosen in the range 0.25-0.5, which averages to 0.375. That means that for every point of strength you add, veshialle gains 0.0375 more damage than starfang.

4.075/0.0375 = 108.67, which means at 119 strength a dragonbone waraxe will do more average damage than a starmetal longsword, disregarding enchantments for now. (ASIDE: waraxes are much better for a SnS user because one-handers get a bigger bonus from strength, with an average bonus of 0.625. Thus a dragonbone waraxe will overtake a starmetal longsword at 76 strength in terms of damage.) This is a rather large amount, which is unlikely to be achieved in origins, especially when a significant amount of dex is sunk into talents.

But of course that's not responsible for starfang/thorn having higher damage per hit. Daggers have notoriously low damage per hit, so how does it manage to be that high? First are the enchantments; you get +6 damage, +2.5 AP and +30% crit damage and +5% crit chance vs +20% crit damage and +10% crit chance. The first increases the damage by about 30% compared to not having them at all, and the second by only about 12%. Secondly, you have more strength. You can cut it at 24 if you want, or 26 for more crit and the dot, or 30 for every talent except expert. That's 6-10 more strength. Plus, all that dex that dual veshialles don't benefit from - thorn does. Not enough to bring it quite up to par, but enough that the stronger starfang can offset its weakness.

I was kinda surprised at first too, but it makes sense.

Well, no, my math don't suck. May just a little. All right, it sucks. Big time.

I stand corrected about the per hit damage of a waraxe vs longsword for less strength. Apologies.

One thing I want to modify a bit in your calculation is that the base damage range of waraxe is 1.4 rather than 1.25. That doesn't make you wrong though. Only ramification is that Veshialle will surpass Starfang at about 89 strength. I could manage that at level 24 I guess, having invested in Dual Weapon Mastery, and ended up with 94 strength at level 25.

Regarding pitting dual Veshialle against Starfang/thorn, i guess dual veshialles will surpass the net damage of Starfang/thorn at around 60 strength, per hit or rather collective two hits (as the hit from Starfang will always be more damaging till 89 str). I see your point now; even 60 strength comes quite late, isn't it?

I thought only +3 damage is added for each weapon (starfang/thorn) separately for each weapon's damage. But after going through the wiki again, it seems starfang gets the bonus +3 from thorn; that is +6 for thorn and +6 for starfang each. It seems illogical but anyway, that's a lot of damage bonus.

Thanks, at least something became clear out of this long discussion. Aloha!

Edit: Actually dual Veshialle will surpass starfang/thorn at around 54 strength, hit by hit. But it takes some time to reach 54 str and then only when using talents. Now that I think of it, when autoattacking, the dual veshiales will hit every 1.4 seconds, while starfang/rose combo will hit every 1.2 seconds. So, am I wrong to believe that at about 90 strength, even DPS of veshiales will be more when autoattacking? Just a query.

Modifié par Blazomancer, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[dainbramage]

Yeah, you're right on the waraxe damage range... I guess I must've been thinking of battleaxes. But it was 1.4 in my spreadsheet, so the numbers I was quoting from it are still good.

[Blazomancer]

Check the edit. Is it valid, or I'm screwing up again?

[Blazomancer]

dainbramage wrote...

Yeah, you're right on the waraxe damage range... I guess I must've been thinking of battleaxes. But it was 1.4 in my spreadsheet, so the numbers I was quoting from it are still good.

Yes, well then it's 3.355/.0375 which is 89 strength. Doesn't matter though.

[dainbramage]

Actually wait. I just checked my spreadsheet and 1.25 is right for waraxes. While battleaxes are 1.4. Confirmed here.

Bleh, that's what I get for going off memory for something I made 2 years ago.

EDIT: For your edit, that's based on no enchantments. Starfang/thorn has much better enchantments.

EDIT 2: http://www.2shared.c...cAwhM/blah.html

Spreadsheet. Should hopefully explain things. While I use 30 armour as a base, anything above 12 will yield the same results.

Modifié par dainbramage, 13 décembre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Blazomancer]

I see, so Discobird got it wrong then. I was consulting his thread.

[MegaToxic]

Haha, what are you guys talking about?

Oh forgot to ask, what the the Talents i should always use as a DW warrior besides the one i get at 24 dex (forgot what it was called), and the spec i heard for DW warrior i should go Berserker is this true? Not sure how close i am to being done with my first play but i am in Orzamar now (hope i spelled that right).

Modifié par ToxicDragon, 13 décembre 2012 - 09:05 .

[termokanden]

By far (and I do mean far) the best talent is Momentum. This should be active at all times. It's a monumental damage boost. Read my note about talents at the bottom for more on talents. Do bring a rogue with Song of Courage as that is also very good for DW.

You should definitely go with Berserk for a DW warrior and have berserking active at all times. It adds damage per strike, which is really good for DW and not so much for 2h.

Another winner is Champion.

As for gear, anything that adds raw damage is amazing for a dual-wielder. It's also better for faster weapons, which is why daggers are actually really good for damage-dealing (even though you might think the opposite when you look at them).

TALENTS: DW works great entirely without talents, and sometimes it just isn't worth it to use them. Definitely think of having the right sustainables first: Momentum, Berserking, Rally. Dual Sweep, Whirlwind and Punisher are IMO the best ones to use in combat on a warrior.

Some talents like Riposte are more rogue-like and in fact have a resistance check against your cunning (which is low on a warrior). Punisher features a strength-check and is more warrior-centric. Whirlwind favors hard-hitting weapons and is better with full-sized weapons.

This all might sound complicated. Really it's not. DW warriors and rogues are great at dealing damage entirely without using activated talents.You will have enough points for all the other stuff eventually and you can just experiment.

Modifié par termokanden, 13 décembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[MegaToxic]

Thanks. I actually just unlocked Templar and Champion on my first play with 2 handed warrior I have a point in Templar already but only the first talent in it. So for DW it is Berserker and Champion.

[termokanden]

Templar is good for 2h so no problems there. But the best part of Templar is the fourth point because it's a knockdown effect.

[MegaToxic]

Okay glad i made the right choice there.