So, I am playing through DA:O for the first time and totally loving the game
My character was romancing Alistar, he was supposed to marry Anora and become King - however when I got to the landsmeet things went.. a little crazy. Alistar went all revenge nut on me, wanting complete revenge on Logain and in all honesty I couldn't in my right mind give him the Throne when all he was interested in was revenge. So I gave it to Anora and Alistar left, is he gone for good?
Guessing I messed up big time with Alistar?
Débuté par
Nykara
, déc. 09 2012 04:07
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#2
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 04:45
mousestalker
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If he didn't marry Anora, then yes, he is gone for good.
If you do not mind meta-gaming, here is a list of all the possible results of the Landsmeet. Warning, there are spoilers galore at that link.
If you do not mind meta-gaming, here is a list of all the possible results of the Landsmeet. Warning, there are spoilers galore at that link.
#3
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 04:47
Milan92
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He is gone yeah, but you will see him again as a weird drunk in DA 2.
#4
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 07:41
termokanden
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True, he shows up in DA2 if he ran away at the Landsmeet 
But don't despair. Loghain is actually quite an interesting character and you can give him a chance to redeem himself. I thought that was one of the more fun moments in Dragon Age for me.
But don't despair. Loghain is actually quite an interesting character and you can give him a chance to redeem himself. I thought that was one of the more fun moments in Dragon Age for me.
#5
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 10:26
Nykara
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Thanks for the info I will avoid the meta-gaming for now and allow my first play through to, well play out. When I got DAO I got the full package with all the DLC and what not too. I am sad that Alistair just up and left though, gah! So much for that romance and he seemed like such a nice character too until he went on that revenge trip. I could see it was going to go badly but in keeping with my character I couldn't just let him kill the guy either. If he has turned in to a drunken fool serves himself right lol
I will avoid the meta-gaming for now and allow my first play through to, well play out. When I got DAO I got the full package with all the DLC and what not too. I am sad that Alistair just up and left though, gah! So much for that romance and he seemed like such a nice character too until he went on that revenge trip. I could see it was going to go badly but in keeping with my character I couldn't just let him kill the guy either. If he has turned in to a drunken fool serves himself right lol
#6
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 11:14
termokanden
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Yep, this happened to me as well. I think Alistair is in the wrong there, but you can understand why he won't let it go.
#7
Posté 09 décembre 2012 - 11:26
Nykara
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There were more things at stake then his personal vengeance he kinda needed to suck it up and stop being selfish, at least that's how I saw it. I actually thought his character was better then that! I guess not though hehe
#8
Posté 11 décembre 2012 - 04:14
NoForgiveness
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not trying to start a war here... but alistair is right loghain deserves to die. also i believe alistair is the one that says this and i agree 100% that being a grew warden is an honor not a punishment
#9
Posté 11 décembre 2012 - 09:38
termokanden
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I disagree, and that's not at all how Duncan (Alistair's hero) saw it. Being a Grey Warden has very little to do with heroism. It has everything to do with stopping the Darkspawn and not much else. The Grey Wardens will accept ANYONE they think can help their cause, even murderers.
Loghain may deserve to die. But being a Grey Warden (particularly at that point in the story) is a death sentence anyway. As a Warden, Loghain serves a higher purpose and can atone for his crimes.
Loghain may deserve to die. But being a Grey Warden (particularly at that point in the story) is a death sentence anyway. As a Warden, Loghain serves a higher purpose and can atone for his crimes.
Modifié par termokanden, 11 décembre 2012 - 09:39 .
#10
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 13 décembre 2012 - 09:45
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Nykara wrote...
Thanks for the info
Surprise, no one's perfect. Alistair is a genuinely nice character and has other people's best interest at heart, but even he has lines that he thinks shouldn't be crossed. Loghain crossed that line for him. If you actually talk to Alistair and get to know him through the game instead of projecting your own assumption of him onto his character, you'll notice that he's deeply scarred by the deaths of the Grey Wardens, devastated by Loghain's betrayal, and eager to avenge those who were killed at Ostagar.
I'm not saying his need for revenge is the most rational decision ever, but he has his reasons for feeling the way he does. You seem to have this idea that Alistair is either this sweet angel 100% of the time ("such a nice character") or a revenge-crazy nutball ("until he went on that revenge trip"). People aren't 100% good or evil, it's very possible for otherwise good people to have a bit of an edge to them. Alistair is one of those characters with an edge to him, which you would have known if you had actually been paying attention instead of assuming his nice exterior was all there was to his character.
Modifié par Faerunner, 13 décembre 2012 - 09:50 .
#11
Posté 14 décembre 2012 - 09:21
sylvanaerie
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Well, maybe on subsequent plays you will get to know Alistair better, as it's hard to appreciate the nuances of David Gaider's writing in one playthrough, but frankly, every game I've played (except for one completely larky one with a bunch of choices I'd never make usually) I've killed Loghain (Or let Alistair kill him). Frankly, I knew letting Loghain live would be the straw that broke the camel's back with Alistair, even on my first game, because I took the time to get to know the character.
And really, what kind of tradeoff is it? You're swapping a young, strong warrior with a good 30 years left in him of fighting darkspawn tirelessly. Loghain has what? A decade? At most, at which point he would be 60 and a bit long in the tooth to be fighting darkspawn all the time. Plus, (without metagaming, because we all know once Joined, he serves admirably the rest of the time he has left, something no PC is going to know at the moment the choice is made) he's a liability, would just as likely stab the PC in the back as look at him, since he's spent the entire game attempting to kill the Warden and his/her companions.
As far as I'm concerned, the Warden is the one who betrayed Alistair for letting the traitor live AND join the Wardens (which everyone in Thedas generally accepts as a great honor, even if it comes with risks and flaws). Would Duncan have recruited him, if it meant losing a much younger, more dedicated warrior and replacing him with an old has been? Perhaps so, but I think it would be open to interpretation. Duncan was practical too, and Loghain may have been viewed as too unreliable (without being able to read minds or predict the future) to be trusted.
Was Alistair acting maturely in the Landsmeet? No, but then NO ONE is at that time, especially not Loghain either, though when you beat him, he at least takes it like a man and accepts his fate.
And really, what kind of tradeoff is it? You're swapping a young, strong warrior with a good 30 years left in him of fighting darkspawn tirelessly. Loghain has what? A decade? At most, at which point he would be 60 and a bit long in the tooth to be fighting darkspawn all the time. Plus, (without metagaming, because we all know once Joined, he serves admirably the rest of the time he has left, something no PC is going to know at the moment the choice is made) he's a liability, would just as likely stab the PC in the back as look at him, since he's spent the entire game attempting to kill the Warden and his/her companions.
As far as I'm concerned, the Warden is the one who betrayed Alistair for letting the traitor live AND join the Wardens (which everyone in Thedas generally accepts as a great honor, even if it comes with risks and flaws). Would Duncan have recruited him, if it meant losing a much younger, more dedicated warrior and replacing him with an old has been? Perhaps so, but I think it would be open to interpretation. Duncan was practical too, and Loghain may have been viewed as too unreliable (without being able to read minds or predict the future) to be trusted.
Was Alistair acting maturely in the Landsmeet? No, but then NO ONE is at that time, especially not Loghain either, though when you beat him, he at least takes it like a man and accepts his fate.
#12
Posté 15 décembre 2012 - 01:16
termokanden
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To be fair, you aren't attempting to swap Alistair for Loghain. Alistair decides on his own to abandon the cause and you don't even get a chance to reason with him. I think that's clearly the wrong decision. One that I understand, but it's still the wrong one, and his hero Duncan certainly would not have approved.
I like both outcomes actually. Loghain is an interesting character, but whatever you decide, I think it adds a much needed touch of ego to the otherwise goody two-shoes Alistair.
I like both outcomes actually. Loghain is an interesting character, but whatever you decide, I think it adds a much needed touch of ego to the otherwise goody two-shoes Alistair.
Modifié par termokanden, 15 décembre 2012 - 01:20 .
#13
Posté 16 décembre 2012 - 03:49
Ferretinabun
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Faerunner - That's harsh. Ease up - Nykara hasn't done anything wrong.
OP - Personally I did like the way Alistair has character flaws. All the characters in DA;O were superbly written and very well-rounded, I thought. No Mary Sues here. But if it helps, he chose his own path. Can't mollycoddle everyone.
OP - Personally I did like the way Alistair has character flaws. All the characters in DA;O were superbly written and very well-rounded, I thought. No Mary Sues here. But if it helps, he chose his own path. Can't mollycoddle everyone.
#14
Posté 26 janvier 2013 - 04:32
Gamer Ftw
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Dying young,not having kids with death looming over you is an honor:??MR_PN wrote...
not trying to start a war here... but alistair is right loghain deserves to die. also i believe alistair is the one that says this and i agree 100% that being a grew warden is an honor not a punishment
#15
Posté 26 janvier 2013 - 06:46
emeraldtrader
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Nykara, who was your character? What class?
It's good to play out all the possibilities (though I have yet to recruit Logain) I love the moral and ethical conundrums that one had to contend with.
It's good to play out all the possibilities (though I have yet to recruit Logain) I love the moral and ethical conundrums that one had to contend with.
#16
Posté 26 janvier 2013 - 06:47
emeraldtrader
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dang, I came to this party late!
#17
Posté 02 février 2013 - 09:29
Nimyue
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Yeah after reading the two books that come before the game, killing Loghain is more heart-wrenching, but it hurts EVEN more that he let Cailen die. Loghain was supposed to be Maric's best friend, and he was in love with Rowan. How could he even consider letting Rowan's son die???? He's not only a king killer, but he killed his best friend's son. Just totally despicable. Not to mention short sightedly killing off all the Grey Wardens. The fool almost set Ferelden up for complete disaster! If he had killed all the wardens Ferelden would be home for the darkspawn. His own greed nearly doomed the country. I'm with Alistair.
#18
Posté 02 février 2013 - 09:31
Nimyue
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Not to metion that he and Maric killed all the nobility responsible for killing Maric's mother in cold blood. In a church even. At least Loghain gets and even matched duel.
#19
Posté 02 février 2013 - 11:26
Stokie Stallion
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MR_PN wrote...
not trying to start a war here... but alistair is right loghain deserves to die. also i believe alistair is the one that says this and i agree 100% that being a grew warden is an honor not a punishment
has noble has it was to let logain (redeem) himself, every playthrough after i stood by alistair, end of the day he beytrayed the warden too, tried kill you, turned everyone against you. Hes more broken than a 16 year old girl with father issues
#20
Posté 04 février 2013 - 11:32
ejoslin
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Nimyue wrote...
Yeah after reading the two books that come before the game, killing Loghain is more heart-wrenching, but it hurts EVEN more that he let Cailen die. Loghain was supposed to be Maric's best friend, and he was in love with Rowan. How could he even consider letting Rowan's son die???? He's not only a king killer, but he killed his best friend's son. Just totally despicable. Not to mention short sightedly killing off all the Grey Wardens. The fool almost set Ferelden up for complete disaster! If he had killed all the wardens Ferelden would be home for the darkspawn. His own greed nearly doomed the country. I'm with Alistair.
Cailin died at the time the signal was lit -- even if Loghain had rushed into an unwinnable battle, Cailin would have already been dead. The difference is that there was still an army left, and had Teagan not incited a civil war, they would have been better equipped to fight the dark spawn.
The battle was unwinnable. Loghain had repeatedly asked Cailin to not fight on the front lines. In war, sometimes death happens even to very important people.
Of course Loghain was paranoid against the Orleseans and distrustful of the Gray Wardens. But I don't think Loghain committed regicide. There was absolutely nothing he could have done to save Cailin, or to win that battle.
#21
Posté 04 février 2013 - 04:57
Klidi
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I don't agree that it was Teagan who started the civil war. That was Loghain, when he tried to usurp the throne (and his messenger in Orzammar calls him the king, so no, I don't buy that he was "just a regent").
As for the signal... personally I believe that part of the game is too illogical. That they prepare the strategy just before the battle starts; that such strategic place, a crucial point of their plan was not secured, and the tunnels were not sealed; that they needed TWO signals (Wardens were supposed to lit the fire in the Tower after they see the first one - "Alistair will know what to look for", Duncan says); that they send two noobs, who wouldn't be able to decide to fire the signal on their own, if the situation was bad - it just doesn't make any sense.
However, as Loghain was a general, the task of securing the tower, sealing the tunnels, and sending a proper unit, with someone who had real experience in the battle, those were all his responsibilities. And he failed. The question is, if he sabotaged the battle (and please don't tell me 'Gaider said he didn't!' - give a INGAME proof he didn't, if you want to argue it) - or if he was just an incompetent idiot who didn't know any better.
Personally, because of his attempt to blame the Wardens, I believe he's a traitor. Also, even though I hate him, I respect him too much to accept that he was just an idiot.
Alistair at the Landsmeet is another part that doesn't make any sense. Yes, he hates the guy, but that tantrum, and killing Loghain right there, in front of Loghain's daughter - that just seems so OOC for him. I wish there was an option to imprison Loghain, and to give him a proper trial after the Blight it over.
But, that's not an option. So on one side, I have a person who was with me and supported me through all the **** we had to go. On the other side, a person who tried to blame me for betrayal, repeatedly hired assassins to kill me, supports Howe, approves selling his free citizens into slavery, and hires a bloodmage to poison his potential rivals and who imprisoned me in fort Drakon for trying to save his stupid daughter. I choose Alistair, and Loghain dies. Grey Wardens accept anyone, but with only two other Wardens in Ferelden, I don't feel it's safe to accept the person I can't trust at all.
As for the signal... personally I believe that part of the game is too illogical. That they prepare the strategy just before the battle starts; that such strategic place, a crucial point of their plan was not secured, and the tunnels were not sealed; that they needed TWO signals (Wardens were supposed to lit the fire in the Tower after they see the first one - "Alistair will know what to look for", Duncan says); that they send two noobs, who wouldn't be able to decide to fire the signal on their own, if the situation was bad - it just doesn't make any sense.
However, as Loghain was a general, the task of securing the tower, sealing the tunnels, and sending a proper unit, with someone who had real experience in the battle, those were all his responsibilities. And he failed. The question is, if he sabotaged the battle (and please don't tell me 'Gaider said he didn't!' - give a INGAME proof he didn't, if you want to argue it) - or if he was just an incompetent idiot who didn't know any better.
Personally, because of his attempt to blame the Wardens, I believe he's a traitor. Also, even though I hate him, I respect him too much to accept that he was just an idiot.
Alistair at the Landsmeet is another part that doesn't make any sense. Yes, he hates the guy, but that tantrum, and killing Loghain right there, in front of Loghain's daughter - that just seems so OOC for him. I wish there was an option to imprison Loghain, and to give him a proper trial after the Blight it over.
But, that's not an option. So on one side, I have a person who was with me and supported me through all the **** we had to go. On the other side, a person who tried to blame me for betrayal, repeatedly hired assassins to kill me, supports Howe, approves selling his free citizens into slavery, and hires a bloodmage to poison his potential rivals and who imprisoned me in fort Drakon for trying to save his stupid daughter. I choose Alistair, and Loghain dies. Grey Wardens accept anyone, but with only two other Wardens in Ferelden, I don't feel it's safe to accept the person I can't trust at all.
Modifié par Klidi, 04 février 2013 - 05:05 .
#22
Posté 04 février 2013 - 05:11
ejoslin
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Weren't they attempting to seal the tunnels? I know when you first enter Ostagar, the tower is blocked off and they're evaluating it -- there was a unit stationed there already (who you see being killed by darkspawn at the start of the battle). Since the darkspawn were the attackers, I'm not sure what else could have been done. It's not like they had the luxury of time. Instead, they were attempting to seal the tunnels off and assigned a force to fight there.
I'm not sure how Loghain sabotaged anything -- I don't see any in game evidence of that. If the Darkspawn force was much larger than anticipated and could wipe out both of their armies, that is just the way it is.
His blaming the wardens -- perhaps he does believe they're to blame. He's paranoid about the Orleseans, and the wardens want to bring in a huge Orlesean force -- and Loghain is right that getting them to leave would be difficult, if not impossible. Looking at it from that point of view, it can be easy to see how he would make the leap that the wardens were responsible for Cailin's death. Also, *I* think the wardens are partly to blame -- only the wardens could have known how overwhelming the darkspawn were, and they should have let Cailin know just how numerous the darkspawn really were and done their best to back Loghain in keeping Cailin off the front line.
ETA: Another thought -- Alistair was to look for the signal and then he and the warden were supposed to light the signal fire, but Alistair never did get the signal, he just thought it must have already been sent. Is it possible that the Gray Wardens never sent a signal? Duncan has such a look of dispair when looking at the fire and realizing there's no help coming, but perhaps that look is actually dispair that even more men are being sent to die?
I'm not sure how Loghain sabotaged anything -- I don't see any in game evidence of that. If the Darkspawn force was much larger than anticipated and could wipe out both of their armies, that is just the way it is.
His blaming the wardens -- perhaps he does believe they're to blame. He's paranoid about the Orleseans, and the wardens want to bring in a huge Orlesean force -- and Loghain is right that getting them to leave would be difficult, if not impossible. Looking at it from that point of view, it can be easy to see how he would make the leap that the wardens were responsible for Cailin's death. Also, *I* think the wardens are partly to blame -- only the wardens could have known how overwhelming the darkspawn were, and they should have let Cailin know just how numerous the darkspawn really were and done their best to back Loghain in keeping Cailin off the front line.
ETA: Another thought -- Alistair was to look for the signal and then he and the warden were supposed to light the signal fire, but Alistair never did get the signal, he just thought it must have already been sent. Is it possible that the Gray Wardens never sent a signal? Duncan has such a look of dispair when looking at the fire and realizing there's no help coming, but perhaps that look is actually dispair that even more men are being sent to die?
Modifié par ejoslin, 04 février 2013 - 05:15 .
#23
Posté 04 février 2013 - 07:13
Klidi
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The Tower is blocked, but the guard only says the tunnels were discovered. And the unit was in front of the tower, not in the Tower.
How long they were in Ostagar, and how long they knew about the tunnels is not known. But Duncan knew where they would be, when he recruited the Warden, which means they were there quite some time. And there is enough rubble and men that they could block the tunnels in a day or two, if they wanted. But it wasn't done. Why?
Loghain based his plan on that signal, but he was aware that the tower was not secured and potentially dangerous. And he sent two rookies - Warden rookies, not his own men - to send the signal. Sure, it was Cailan's decision, but nothing stopped Loghain to send his own men with them. Someone who would know when to lit the signal based on the situation on the field, regardless the first signal. He didn't do it. Why?
We don't know if the first signal was supposed to be fired by Wardens. Duncan mentions it to Alistair after the strategy meeting - and remember that the Warden was late for the meeting, they were already discussing the strategy when the Warden came. We have no idea who, when or how was supposed to fire the fist signal. But we can assume that whoever it was, it was someone who could read the battle and knew when to do it. And for that, that person had to be in a place where they could watch the battle. Besides, we see Loghain himself is watching the battle. He's supposed to be a famous general.
Loghain should have been able to see the situation is bad and join the battle without the second signal. Yet, he insisted on waiting and then pulled out. Why?
I still see only two replies to all these whys: either he knew in advance he would pull out - which means he sabotaged the battle; or he really didn't realise these things could be a problem - which means he's an incompetent fool who should never have been made a general.
I disagree that only Wardens could have known how overwhelming darkspawn were - battle at Ostagar wasn't the first one. Cailan and Loghain's army were in several fights before - I think they mention four. And they knew that this battle would be "decisive". Cailan likes the Wardens, but we see that in the end he complies with the Loghain's strategy. Yes, Duncan could have said 'but I see the Archdemon in my dreams!' but somehow I doubt that would convince either Loghain or Cailin.
And I fail to se how his paranoia justifies his suspicion of Ferelden Grey Wardens. It's Cailin, not Duncan, who suggests Orleasian support. And it proves that Cailan was much more capable king than Loghain gives him credit. He realises that a small country like Ferelden has not much chance to stand alone against the threat of darkspawn, and that they will need international support. I'm sorry, but the fact that he's paranoid and unable to leave the past behind him, does not excuse Loghain - it actually makes it worse. For me, at least.
How long they were in Ostagar, and how long they knew about the tunnels is not known. But Duncan knew where they would be, when he recruited the Warden, which means they were there quite some time. And there is enough rubble and men that they could block the tunnels in a day or two, if they wanted. But it wasn't done. Why?
Loghain based his plan on that signal, but he was aware that the tower was not secured and potentially dangerous. And he sent two rookies - Warden rookies, not his own men - to send the signal. Sure, it was Cailan's decision, but nothing stopped Loghain to send his own men with them. Someone who would know when to lit the signal based on the situation on the field, regardless the first signal. He didn't do it. Why?
We don't know if the first signal was supposed to be fired by Wardens. Duncan mentions it to Alistair after the strategy meeting - and remember that the Warden was late for the meeting, they were already discussing the strategy when the Warden came. We have no idea who, when or how was supposed to fire the fist signal. But we can assume that whoever it was, it was someone who could read the battle and knew when to do it. And for that, that person had to be in a place where they could watch the battle. Besides, we see Loghain himself is watching the battle. He's supposed to be a famous general.
Loghain should have been able to see the situation is bad and join the battle without the second signal. Yet, he insisted on waiting and then pulled out. Why?
I still see only two replies to all these whys: either he knew in advance he would pull out - which means he sabotaged the battle; or he really didn't realise these things could be a problem - which means he's an incompetent fool who should never have been made a general.
I disagree that only Wardens could have known how overwhelming darkspawn were - battle at Ostagar wasn't the first one. Cailan and Loghain's army were in several fights before - I think they mention four. And they knew that this battle would be "decisive". Cailan likes the Wardens, but we see that in the end he complies with the Loghain's strategy. Yes, Duncan could have said 'but I see the Archdemon in my dreams!' but somehow I doubt that would convince either Loghain or Cailin.
And I fail to se how his paranoia justifies his suspicion of Ferelden Grey Wardens. It's Cailin, not Duncan, who suggests Orleasian support. And it proves that Cailan was much more capable king than Loghain gives him credit. He realises that a small country like Ferelden has not much chance to stand alone against the threat of darkspawn, and that they will need international support. I'm sorry, but the fact that he's paranoid and unable to leave the past behind him, does not excuse Loghain - it actually makes it worse. For me, at least.
#24
Posté 04 février 2013 - 07:44
ejoslin
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But you're making assumptions. How do you know rubble wasn't placed? You didn't see it before hand. Darkspawn can tunnel as well. I'm not saying it happened, I'm not saying it didn't. We're not given the information in game. But there were people stationed there, that we know.
Loghain said he had men already there and said they could get the signal. Uldred offered an alternative plan as well. This was supposed to be a completely safe mission -- Cailin in fact may have been shielding Alistair from the risk of battle. It was Cailin who insisted that the warden and Alistar go to the tower.
And the reason Loghain didn't go in even without the signal? Apparently the darkspawn horde was much too large. The problem was that no one, except perhaps the wardens, had any clue how many darkspawn would be at this battle. They assumed it would be the same as the previous three battles, maybe a bit larger. They were wrong. The only ones who could have known this were the wardens. When Cailin says he's not sure if it's even a true blight, Duncan does not say a word.
It was an unending line of darkspawn this time. No matter when Loghain joined the battle, he would have been overwhelmed.
As far as the Orleseans, they had called for help of the Orlesean Gray Wardens, who wanted to bring a large military force.
I think a part of the problem is most people did not believe it was a true blight. They just thought they were a bit larger than normal darkspawn raids. And it's not really a simple matter of putting the past behind them -- that's a bit naive. They had been cruelly subjugated for many years, and there is absolutely no reason to think that the Orleseans wouldn't step right back into occupying Ferelden given a chance like that.
And while you're right that we don't know WHO was supposed to send the first signal, we do know that Alistair never got it. Alistair just assumed that it had been sent.
Loghain said he had men already there and said they could get the signal. Uldred offered an alternative plan as well. This was supposed to be a completely safe mission -- Cailin in fact may have been shielding Alistair from the risk of battle. It was Cailin who insisted that the warden and Alistar go to the tower.
And the reason Loghain didn't go in even without the signal? Apparently the darkspawn horde was much too large. The problem was that no one, except perhaps the wardens, had any clue how many darkspawn would be at this battle. They assumed it would be the same as the previous three battles, maybe a bit larger. They were wrong. The only ones who could have known this were the wardens. When Cailin says he's not sure if it's even a true blight, Duncan does not say a word.
It was an unending line of darkspawn this time. No matter when Loghain joined the battle, he would have been overwhelmed.
As far as the Orleseans, they had called for help of the Orlesean Gray Wardens, who wanted to bring a large military force.
I think a part of the problem is most people did not believe it was a true blight. They just thought they were a bit larger than normal darkspawn raids. And it's not really a simple matter of putting the past behind them -- that's a bit naive. They had been cruelly subjugated for many years, and there is absolutely no reason to think that the Orleseans wouldn't step right back into occupying Ferelden given a chance like that.
And while you're right that we don't know WHO was supposed to send the first signal, we do know that Alistair never got it. Alistair just assumed that it had been sent.
Modifié par ejoslin, 04 février 2013 - 10:10 .
#25
Posté 18 février 2013 - 09:24
Fuggyt
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ejoslin wrote...
Nimyue wrote...
Yeah after reading the two books that come before the game, killing Loghain is more heart-wrenching, but it hurts EVEN more that he let Cailen die. Loghain was supposed to be Maric's best friend, and he was in love with Rowan. How could he even consider letting Rowan's son die???? He's not only a king killer, but he killed his best friend's son. Just totally despicable. Not to mention short sightedly killing off all the Grey Wardens. The fool almost set Ferelden up for complete disaster! If he had killed all the wardens Ferelden would be home for the darkspawn. His own greed nearly doomed the country. I'm with Alistair.
Cailin died at the time the signal was lit -- even if Loghain had rushed into an unwinnable battle, Cailin would have already been dead. The difference is that there was still an army left, and had Teagan not incited a civil war, they would have been better equipped to fight the dark spawn.
The battle was unwinnable. Loghain had repeatedly asked Cailin to not fight on the front lines. In war, sometimes death happens even to very important people.
Of course Loghain was paranoid against the Orleseans and distrustful of the Gray Wardens. But I don't think Loghain committed regicide. There was absolutely nothing he could have done to save Cailin, or to win that battle.
Are you suggesting the in-game experience really suggests the battle was unwinnable? I think the cinematic makes it abundantly clear how we are supposed to take it. Even Cathrian is shocked by Loghain's abrupt decision to retreat, and Bann Teagon isn't the only one who finds it pretty suspicious. Loghain's subsequent actions, poisoning Arl Eaman and proclaiming a regency in Anora's name, give little ground to suspect abandoning Cailan was superior generalship. Notice Loghain doesn't exactly deny it when his own daughter accuses him of deliberately tossing Cailan to the genlocks.
I've spared Loghain once or twice during innumerable playthroughs, but only to see how it turned out. Generally, I kill him. I can't see any grounds to acquit him. All that talk about redemption is nice, and it's true, you can send Loghain out to take one for the team instead of you if you don't take Morrigan's deal. But you don't know that at the time, do you? You haven't heard that killing an Arch-Demon requires the sacrifice of a Warden, much less about Morrigan's proposition. All you know is that Loghain: abandoned the troops at Ostagar; got Cailan and Duncan killed; sent you and Alistair into a deathtrap; blamed it all on you and the Grey Wardens; assumed power without a shred of legitimacy; condoned or abetted murder, assassination, espionage, apostasy, torture, slavery, and multiple counts of kidnapping, including his own daughter. This is a guy who deserves the benefit of the doubt?
No, Loghain has to die. But if all that wasn't enough, in the game, in the moment, Alistair of all people raises the key point: "He's not exactly loyal to us." If you spare Loghain, even if he survives the Joining, are you sure you'd be willing to have him behind you in battle? He's already tried to kill you more often than Wile E. Coyote. He'll surely frag you at his first opportunity and insinuate himself back into power. No, I think he's nuts and I don't trust him, and I submit the game provides precious little reason up to that point to think otherwise.
