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[gds76]

Well, Riordan argues that there are "compelling reasons" to spare Loghain. Considering he is the senior warden and was tortured by Loghains allies himself one might be willing to take his word for it.

[Fuggyt]

gds76 wrote...

Well, Riordan argues that there are "compelling reasons" to spare Loghain. Considering he is the senior warden and was tortured by Loghains allies himself one might be willing to take his word for it.

One might, if he were willing to share any of those "compelling reasons" with you.  Otherwise it's just another argument from authority, my least favorite fallacy.

[ejoslin]

Fuggyt wrote...

Are you suggesting the in-game experience really suggests the battle was unwinnable?  I think the cinematic makes it abundantly clear how we are supposed to take it.  Even Cathrian is shocked by Loghain's abrupt decision to retreat, and Bann Teagon isn't the only one who finds it pretty suspicious.  Loghain's subsequent actions, poisoning Arl Eaman and proclaiming a regency in Anora's name, give little ground to suspect abandoning Cailan was superior generalship.  Notice Loghain doesn't exactly deny it when his own daughter accuses him of deliberately tossing Cailan to the genlocks.

I've spared Loghain once or twice during innumerable playthroughs, but only to see how it turned out.  Generally, I kill him.  I can't see any grounds to acquit him.  All that talk about redemption is nice, and it's true, you can send Loghain out to take one for the team instead of you if you don't take Morrigan's deal.  But you don't know that at the time, do you?  You haven't heard that killing an Arch-Demon requires the sacrifice of a Warden, much less about Morrigan's proposition.  All you know is that Loghain:  abandoned the troops at Ostagar; got Cailan and Duncan killed; sent you and Alistair into a deathtrap; blamed it all on you and the Grey Wardens; assumed power without a shred of legitimacy; condoned or abetted murder, assassination, espionage, apostasy, torture, slavery, and multiple counts of kidnapping, including his own daughter.  This is a guy who deserves the benefit of the doubt?    
  
No, Loghain has to die.  But if all that wasn't enough, in the game, in the moment, Alistair of all people raises the key point:  "He's not exactly loyal to us."  If you spare Loghain, even if he survives the Joining, are you sure you'd be willing to have him behind you in battle?  He's already tried to kill you more often than Wile E. Coyote.  He'll surely frag you at his first opportunity and insinuate himself back into power.  No, I think he's nuts and I don't trust him, and I submit the game provides precious little reason up to that point to think otherwise.

In game reasons? The cutscene shows an unending line of darkspawn. The soldiers who survived feel that Loghain did the right thing, pulling out. Alistair didn't feel so, but Alistair couldn't see the battle.

The compelling reasons I would think is that Loghain is a strong soldier, with a good chance of surviving the joining and they need wardens and they have a very limited supply of blood and such I would guess so it's not like they can do a whole lot of recruiting.

Modifié par ejoslin, 20 février 2013 - 11:43 .

[mousestalker]

gds76 wrote...

Well, Riordan argues that there are "compelling reasons" to spare Loghain. Considering he is the senior warden and was tortured by Loghains allies himself one might be willing to take his word for it.

You can make a pretty good argument that Riordan is addled, stupid or foolish at that point, considering he let himself get seized by Howe. An man that no one other than the Couslands either liked or trusted. There are counter arguments of course, but it can definitely be argued that the PC is justified in never following Riordan's advice, sexy voice or no.

[Merilsell]

 Considering the Landsmeet, this here is an excellent, if long read to this old topic. Here (longer) excerpts:

[...] I agree that Alistair’s decision to walk away is a bad one, and he may pay for it pretty dearly. I might suggest that Alistair doesn’t properly respect his own ability and value to the mission; it is not so much that he leaves you to die, because he doesn’t seem to think much of himself and is pretty sure you will do just fine without him. Now, that’s a good argument against him being king, but my gameplay experience has been that he’s just about the most valuable person in my party. That kid saved our hides when Kolgrim knocked us all out, and he killed the High Dragon, too. I understand your reasoning that Alistair goes against the Grey Wardens dictate that we must do anything we can to end the blight, but at this point, a point of comparison comes into play. Yep, he had a breaking point. Everybody in your party does. Wynne has hers, Leiliana has hers. Al will stay with you if you kill Connor or Isolde, he’ll let you kill all the elves and pour blood all over Andraste, but here’s where he just can’t take it anymore. [...]

[...]I agree that this is a point in is favor; he’s (Loghain) not an irredeemable man, but he’s not more worthy of… ANYTHING…. love, respect, a second chance, a chance to live up to his full potential… than Alistair is. When push comes to shove, they are both actually rather staggeringly impressive men. I have already said that at the time we hit the Landsmeet in my game, Alistair killed Kolgrim almost single-handedly and that High Dragon is in his Kill column, too. He’s capable of taking Loghain in single combat, when I play that scenario. Al’s only problem is that he doesn’t recognize how awesome he is, and his insecurity informs others on how to treat him. And he’s 20. If we accept the meta information we get elsewhere (and we must, to give Loghain ANY of the arguments that support him at all), we know that Alistair, hardened, turned out to be a pretty good king. 

That’s canon.

He did good things for the elves that Anora did not do on her own, and if we are using the meta, it is really much better for Ferelden in the long run if he does NOT end up beheaded or crying in a bar somewhere. And yes, I think letting a virtuous and promising young man live up to his full potential for the good of all Ferelden (especially the elves) is more valuable than granting clemency to a known usurper, traitor, slaver and murderer.

The Landsmeet IS the trial. This is a medieval setting. We already know that the reasonable penalty to Jowan for poisoning Arl Eamon is death; there is no reason for me to believe that sending Jowan (what a pathetic idiot!) to do the job is worthy of any less. Oh, and if you play it just wrong, Alistair is executed for… what? Exactly? Getting mad because Loghain does not get executed. Sorry, but grossly unjust behavior is flying rampantly in all directions here, and I would far rather it landed on the guy whose misdeeds were more numerous and destructive.

Which leads me back to the cold, hard equations. 3 + 1 = 4. That’s a great, great reason to recruit Loghain. Except that 3 +1 - 1 = 3. Either Alistair OR Loghain, but not both. Sorry, but I think this one is easy. I’d rather have my friend, I’d rather have the kid who ends up improving Ferelden, I’d rather have a man who has not yet ruined his life, (and is very near to doing so.) I’d rather raise a good and principled man of great unrealized potential to the place he can achieve rather than let a man who has destroyed his entire county scrabble some vestiges of dignity from the ashes of the destruction he himself caused. And yes, he did. Even he knows it. THAT’S why he won’t leave you!

And don’t forget…. 3 - 1 + 0 = 2. We don’t know that Loghain is going to survive the joining. He’s 50 years old. At the time that Alistair is having his meltdown, he doesn’t know the importance of these little mathematical sums, but Riordan does. If you want to get very, very crass and pragmatic, we know for sure that this point that Alistair is going to be able to stick his sword in a dying archdemon and make it explode. We are about to lose somebody who can do that in the quest to add somebody who may nor may not be able to do that.

At that moment, for that reason alone, Riordan should have called off the recruitment exercise and done everything in his power to calm Alistair down. Because… experienced Grey Wardens who have actually been taught all the important rules know that you have to do what you must to make sure the Archdemon dies. A kid who can kill that thing for sure is about to walk out the door? Get him back here! Any way you can! Lop this man’s head off if you have to! We can recruit somebody else!

Modifié par Merilsell, 21 février 2013 - 05:47 .

[ejoslin]

mousestalker wrote...

gds76 wrote...

Well, Riordan argues that there are "compelling reasons" to spare Loghain. Considering he is the senior warden and was tortured by Loghains allies himself one might be willing to take his word for it.

You can make a pretty good argument that Riordan is addled, stupid or foolish at that point, considering he let himself get seized by Howe. An man that no one other than the Couslands either liked or trusted. There are counter arguments of course, but it can definitely be argued that the PC is justified in never following Riordan's advice, sexy voice or no.

A sexy voice works for me.  There are some men who should be spared just so they can read me the phone book in their spare time.

[Fuggyt]

[quote]Merilsell wrote...



At that moment, for that reason alone, Riordan should have called off the recruitment exercise and done everything in his power to calm Alistair down. Because… experienced Grey Wardens who have actually been taught all the important rules know that you have to do what you must to make sure the Archdemon dies. A kid who can kill that thing for sure is about to walk out the door? Get him back here! Any way you can! Lop this man’s head off if you have to! We can recruit somebody else! [/quote]
[/quote]

Exactly.  Loghain isn't worth the candle anyway, even if he weren't treacherous and nuts.

[LilPancho86]

This is one aspect of the game I really enjoy. I think the outcome depends heavily on one's origin, so choice on the matter was varied for me by playthrough. Sometimes Alistair would be at my side as a trusted 'second in command' ally, where I'd let him regulate revenge justice on Loghain, as I did on my family's murderer (Howe). Other times he'd be a whiny immature brat who was left at camp, then promptly disposed of in favor of a war hero with something to atone for.

Duncan may have been a shady character, but always had the Grey Wardens' interest at heart for the greater good. Similarly, Riorden saw past Loghain's manipulated mind, and sought the increased chance of success in stemming the tide that would wipe out the known world. There is wisdom behind such a stance, though it takes a certain bite in morality to capitalize on it.

Going into the 'what if' scenario, if the DLC Darkspawn Chronicles implies anything, it is that Alistair condoned the genocide of an entire tribe of Dalish elves. Point being, I believe even a seemingly benevolent character can have a morally flawed outlook on life. Alistair included, went through trauma and let a personal vendetta dictate his views. Therefore I can understand arguments for both sides of the issue, since neither are cookie-cutter personalities of pure good or pure evil.

Modifié par LilPancho86, 04 mai 2013 - 03:03 .

[Bhryaen]

The argument detailed above is nearly flawless for explaining why executing Loghain is the most reasonable and pragmatic action despite how ultimately needless the loss is, but that fact alone doesn't make Riordan's mere entreaty to spare Loghain somehow unwise. No one can know (roleplaying anyway) just how insistent Alistair is going to be on the execution of Loghain. And why would Alistair be so insistent when Riordan's proposition holds more promise? So I certainly don't fault Riordan for giving it the ol' college try. Riordan isn't as insistent as Alistair after all and does openly acquiesce at some point, unlike Alistair.

The other aspect that has always bugged me is the simple fact of having to deal with Alistair's tizzyfit ultimatum in the first place- no persuasion check offered since he's just that deadset on it. Yes, it's the better decision to choose the known ally Alistair over the known cutthroat Loghain, but the fact that you must choose between them is entirely due to Alistair, not circumstance. He forces the issue, and I'm not a fan of those who bully their way to my vote, so it's hard to roleplay the otherwise fully sensible reaction of choosing Alistair when that same Alistair is being such an ass about it. Al even comes out at one point to say he's insisting on an execution because he's simply against Loghain having a chance at "glory-" that is, not that he's concerned that Loghain will betray them again or will fail as a GW or will use his GW status to connive some new plot into motion or some other logistical or practical concern. No, Al prefers drinking himself to stupor and abandoning the cause of saving Ferelden and possibly all of Thedas simply because he can't live with allowing Loghain to have a chance to redeem himself in any way. We're talking redemption here, not letting Loghain continue wreaking havoc on Ferelden. Killing Loghain is more important than saving the world? It's childish to the extreme- makes it hard to make the effort to "keep the kid from walking out the door" when, well, he just seems like a foolish kid whose priorities aren't straight anyway. And after all, he does walk out on the GW cause. Loghain doesn't, no ultimatums required.

Of course, there's a way you can still recruit Loghain without losing Alistair to drink or death- though I haven't yet managed this- but Alistair still has a tantrum and leaves the GW cause, albeit to become a decent king in that case. Too bad- would've made the Return to Ostagar dialog that much more charged.

[Gustave Flowbert]

Bhryaen wrote...

The other aspect that has always bugged me is the simple fact of having to deal with Alistair's tizzyfit ultimatum in the first place- no persuasion check offered since he's just that deadset on it. Yes, it's the better decision to choose the known ally Alistair over the known cutthroat Loghain, but the fact that you must choose between them is entirely due to Alistair, not circumstance. He forces the issue, and I'm not a fan of those who bully their way to my vote, so it's hard to roleplay the otherwise fully sensible reaction of choosing Alistair when that same Alistair is being such an ass about it. Al even comes out at one point to say he's insisting on an execution because he's simply against Loghain having a chance at "glory-" that is, not that he's concerned that Loghain will betray them again or will fail as a GW or will use his GW status to connive some new plot into motion or some other logistical or practical concern. No, Al prefers drinking himself to stupor and abandoning the cause of saving Ferelden and possibly all of Thedas simply because he can't live with allowing Loghain to have a chance to redeem himself in any way. We're talking redemption here, not letting Loghain continue wreaking havoc on Ferelden. Killing Loghain is more important than saving the world? It's childish to the extreme- makes it hard to make the effort to "keep the kid from walking out the door" when, well, he just seems like a foolish kid whose priorities aren't straight anyway. And after all, he does walk out on the GW cause. Loghain doesn't, no ultimatums required.

Of course, there's a way you can still recruit Loghain without losing Alistair to drink or death- though I haven't yet managed this- but Alistair still has a tantrum and leaves the GW cause, albeit to become a decent king in that case. Too bad- would've made the Return to Ostagar dialog that much more charged.

Agreed wholeheartedly! I just finished another DAO playthrough myself and this part always bugs me a bit. It's difficult for me to play a consistently "hard" or ruthless character in DAO so I can never bring myself to "harden" Alistair (or Leliana, for that matter). Why can't my silver-tongued Warden get him on board with this though, after convincing him of some things I would think the character would find truly unsavory or downright unacceptable?

It's always a shock of hurricane-force fury but why couldn't a friend who had been through so much with him convince him of this as well, changed (hardened) or not? He throws a fit and storms off and it doesn't always ring true to me.

I also wish we had a little more time with Loghain but even that's not a true complaint.

[Merc Mama]

I believe it's all in the hardening, if you do it and support Alistair to be king, the revoke, you lose him.
But if he isn't hardened & you don't support him for the throne in the first place, he stays on, quite content not to be kind as well.