162 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

d4eaming wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Casual = games you can pick up and put down at a whim.

Hardcore = games that require significant chunks of time/attention to play.

I believe these terms are independent from difficulty or "complexity." A good casual game is easy to learn and difficult to master. I consider FFTactics A2 (favorite DS game) to be casual because it only requires my attention for the duration of a battle, and even then, I can save, quit, and put it away until I have more time. And yet it gets very difficult and requires a lot of thought.

By this definition, I'm a "hard core" gamer Games like Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, MOO3, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, and, um, WoW that require pretty significant dedication are my favorites. Yet I don't identify as "hard core" at all. Granted, my aversion to "hard core" gamer stems from knowing someone who was so utterly snobby and l33t about games that it makes me want to puke my guts out that be associated with that kind of gross attitude.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a casual or hardcore gamer.

Hell, I play DA, AC, ME, Skyrim, all of the big AAA titles (often repeatedly), also play some Facebook games and reguarly pick up my DS.

I don't identify as hardcore or casual because those labels are useless.

Am I casual if I check on my Sims Social sim in the morning before going to work where I make a video game?!

Honestly the only distinction there seems to be is between "people who like to play games" and "people who like to play games and can't stand other people having fun."

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 10 décembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[In Exile]

Also, this is really funny, because "COD" != casual game. That would be angry birds.

[Nuclear Pete]

The only differance between a hardcore and a casual gamer is the time one can devote to gaming. It's got nothing to do with how "complex" a game is. I considered myself a casual gamer when I picked up KotOR. Now, gaming is my number one hobbie. I play a bit of everything now.

And I wouldn't call CoD MP casual friendly. In my experience casual gamers tend to spend more time on the SP mode. You need to devote a lot of your time to CoD MP to achieve anything.

[CrazyRah]

Nuclear Pete wrote...

The only differance between a hardcore and a casual gamer is the time one can devote to gaming. It's got nothing to do with how "complex" a game is. I considered myself a casual gamer when I picked up KotOR. Now, gaming is my number one hobbie. I play a bit of everything now.

And I wouldn't call CoD MP casual friendly. In my experience casual gamers tend to spend more time on the SP mode. You need to devote a lot of your time to CoD MP to achieve anything.

This is pretty much how i see it aswell. That the only real difference between casual and hardcore is the time you can/decide to pour into gaming

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Nuclear Pete wrote...

The only differance between a hardcore and a casual gamer is the time one can devote to gaming. It's got nothing to do with how "complex" a game is.

Well put, I like this definition.

[In Exile]

CrazyRah wrote...
This is pretty much how i see it aswell. That the only real difference between casual and hardcore is the time you can/decide to pour into gaming

And how much you know about gaming. Playing angry birds means knowing how to tap your phone screen. Playing COD means having your console/PC, an internet connection, and an awareness of how FPSs work.

[PsychoBlonde]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Hardcore I think of as having an interest in games outside just playing them. They'll read about them in advance, they'll have strong opinions on how games should be developed and what makes them good and bad, they might sit on a message board a year before the thing is due to be released and discuss it.

Casual gamers I think of as the people there to just play the game. More influenced by word of mouth, adverts and reviews. I don't view it as a comment on their ability to play a game, more the process by which they get to playing it in the first place.

This is a pretty decent way of thinking about it.

The best thinking I've read about this issue comes from people who produce free online content, and many of them talk about the "1000 true fans" model.  "True" fans are people who buy pretty much everything you put out.  In this case, they buy the books, the comics, they preorder the Signature Edition, they buy the DLC.  All the DLC.

For Dragon Age, that's me.  But here's the thing--I haven't seen ANY indications that I'm LESS important to Bioware than other fans--in fact, almost all of the newer features in the games are things I suggested on the forums.  I'm not saying they implemented them BECAUSE I suggested them, hell, they probably didn't even see those posts.  But if they're going after anybody's pocket specifically, it's mine.  And I'm a "hardcore" fan.

It's not fun to find that a creator you enjoy is taking the product you enjoy in a direction that you find undesirable.  I feel for you.  But if you think your feelings are representative of a group and thus your personal gripes mean that group is gettings slighted, you REALLY need to get over yourself.  Even if the complaints are loud and unceasing, this is by no means an indication that a substantial majority of the "hardcore" fans aren't getting what they want.  It just means that there are some twits out there with an entitlement problem.

In any case, I don't see any signs that Bioware is after the "casual" market.  It sounds like they want to make the best product they can and they're focusing on that, hence the ongoing lack of substantial news.  This may even hurt their "casual" sales as awareness of the franchise leaks away from the front pages of the gaming news.

Only time will tell.

[CDRSkyShepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

How does one define a casual and hardcore fan?

That's a great question. I don't think there's a real answer to it. I don't consider myself either, since I am not really casual, since I play games a lot and I love delving into new titles and broadening my horizons instead of just playing games in my spare time as a passing fancy. I'm also not really hardcore because I could care less about things like MP challenges and beating Halo on Legendary or ME on Insanity (though I am working on the latter because I just love the game so much); I'd much rather play at a comfortable difficulty (one that is challenging enough without being frustrating) and enjoy myself. I do little things to challenge myself, like trying to headshot every enemy on a level or go an entire level without using powers...stuff like that.

I always thought the distinction between hardcore and casual was weird, because there are plenty of people who fall into the middle. I may be a hardcore fan of a certain franchise, but that doesn't mean I'm a hardcore gamer and want a company to make a game hard to play. I'd rather the controls be complex, but intuitive and the combat/gameplay to be fun in a challenging way, not in a way that makes it so difficult I want to gouge my eyes out. In the same vein, I don't want it to be easy, either. Feeling extremely OP takes the fun out of it for me, personally.

All that said, I think game designers and developers shouldn't worry about catering to specific markets. Just make the game you want to make. People will find a way to play through it and make it work regardless of their skill level. That's why why the "modes" of ME3 baffled me to no end...when I started out, I ran into walls because I had no idea how to control my character. I couldn't remember what button did what on the controller. Yet...now not only am I thoroughly familiar with ME's controls, I can pick up the control schemes of other games a lot easier, because I learned. I wanted to learn, so I adapted. I didn't rely on any casual or story mode to just let me get through the game. Anyone else who wants to pick up a game will do the same, so we shouldn't be worrying about how to cater to "casual" or "hardcore" gamers. That's what difficulty levels are for. XD

[Pandaman102]

I don't know if it's accurate to distinguish the fans as "hardcore" and "casual", every developer has to try to appeal to new players while retaining as much of its core fan base, but DA2's design and box art was an obvious grab at Battlefield fans (who have their own "hardcore" and "casual" players). The issue is more along the lines of Bioware introducing action elements and streamlining to reach across genres, much like how action and shooters have been introducing leveling mechanics and disingenuously labeling those as "RPG elements" to reach across genres as well; that's significantly different from making changes to appeal to casual players who already have interest in fantasy settings and/or RPGs, particularly those on the console market.

There's nothing wrong with trying to expand a company's customer base, but that doesn't preclude them from he possibility of making the wrong changes that alienates core customers and fails to bring in new ones (alienating core customers but bringing in more new ones than you lose is fine though, you can't make everyone happy, but at least you can make your wallet happy).

Won't speculate on whether or not Bioware made this mistake, because I don't have access to actual sales numbers and any speculation on my part would be heavily biased.

[Conduit0]

I refuse to use the terms casual and hardcore to refer to gamers, they're terms for mouth breathers to toss around while beating their chests like the mental primitives that they are.

The reason Developers try to open up their games to broader market appeal is quite simple.
Broader market appeal leads to higher sales.
Higher sales leads to higher profit.
Higher profit leads to larger budgets.
Larger budgets lead to bigger better games.

[Maria Caliban]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

How does one define a casual and hardcore fan?

The same way one defines pornography.

I can't tell you exactly what it means, but I'm comfortable saying that people who spend their time on a game's forum years before that game comes out are hardcore fans.

In Exile wrote...

Also, this is really funny, because "COD" != casual game. That would be angry birds.

Yes, a casual game is something like Bejeweled or Angry Birds, but that's not the same as a casual gamer. The majority of people who play casual games aren't gamers.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 décembre 2012 - 12:47 .

[thegreenmonkey69]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That depends on what the thread is complaining about.  

My question wasn't really directed at you, but rather the OP (just to clarify since I am prone to not directly quoting the post above me when I respond to posts above me >.>).

Although anyone is free to answer.

I guess as good of a place as any is within the context of the OP's usage.  It's vague and general, since the post lacks specifics.


So what attributes make up a casual player and a hardcore player?

In my experience the differences between hardcore and casual are as follows:

Hardcore - plays every day for a minimum of 5 hours at a time, participates in weekly raids as part of a dedicated group, generally has a lack of patience for newcomers to the game, and to those who would like to learn the dungeons/fights/raids available, they also tend to focus more on PVP rather than PVE

Casual - may play some days for long stretches but tends to average at about 2 hours or less per day, tend to be friendlier toward newcomers, may particpate in dungeons/fights/raids, more forgiving to those who don't know how things work and the occasional wipes, focuses more on PVE and coop rather than PVP

Whether the industry is focusing more on casual or hardcore is debatable but imo the casual gamer tends to spend more money overall than the hardcore player.  Hardcore players tend to focus on one game at a time where a casual player might focus on several differnet games thus spending more money over their gaming experience than a hardcore player.

The casual player also tends to have more responsibilities outside of the gaming culture (job, family, social activities, etc.) which limits the amount of time they can spend in game, and so games that are geared more towards long term goals, and/or are playable in short bursts with decent progression tend to be the focus of the casual gamer.  It's hard to sit down for a long gaming session when one has a child to worry about.  Story and gameplay tend to be a priority.

Hardcore gamers tend to be younger and with fewer responsibilities so can focus on the short term in-game goals (such as raid completion) more easily.  Maxing progression and gear tend to be a priority. A hardcore gamer plays a game, maxes levels and gear then tends to be
quite vocal about how leet they are and why aren't the devs catering to
their need for more. And rather than try to help others reach the same
level they tend to quit the game once they've done all they think there is to do.

In this regard a casual gamer has more value than a hardcore gamer, becasue they will always be in the game working toward the goals they've set for themselves.  Whereas a hardcore gamer will reach the goals the game has and then quit becasuse there is nothing else for them to do.

Just my take on casual vs hardcore, YMMV

[Wulfram]

If we're talking in broad terms, anyone with a non-Wii console or a PC with a decent gaming graphics card is not casual.

If we're talking about Dragon Age in particular, I think anyone who plays the game more than once is hardcore.

[Wozearly]

Lightning Cloud wrote...

A casual gamer is someone who doesn't play games very often, essentially. That's the definition I've always gone by. Hardcore gamers eat, breathe, and sleep gaming.

I think that's a workable definition for the term, although I'd be inclined to tack on something around time (and more importantly, money) spent on gaming as that would be a more useful metric if Bioware were explicitly playing a numbers game with who they attempt to appeal to.

My guess is that if you looked at all of the money coming into the games industry, you'd see a Pareto distribution happening - around 80% of the money comes from about 20% of gamers. Bioware's customer base is probably less extremely distributed as there are fewer opportunities for repeat/additional purchases than you would see in most consumer products, so my guess is that a 'multiple purchaser' and a 'die hard fan' are not quite so clearly different as they would be in most industries.

If true, it looks at a glance like an absolute no-brainer to focus on appealing to the 20% of people (more likely to be hardcore, more likely to self-identify as fans) who provide 80% of the cash.

Except that 20% of repeat Bioware purchasers is in itself a small segment of the overall 20% of gamers providing the lion's share of money into the industry. So it would be difficult to blame Bioware for being interested in broadening their appeal to include others in that wider group.

If that's done by shifting who the game is meant to appeal to, taking this route would not involve attempting to appeal to 'casual' players, but attemping to appealing to 'hardcore' players who have not traditionally been interested in the type of RPG that Bioware makes. This would inevitably also appeal to a large chunk of the 80% of low-money contributors as well - a) because there's a high degree of overlap between games played by 'casual' players and 'hardcore' players, and  that's how Pareto distributions work.

Of course, changing appeal has another effect, as its likely to change what appeals to the inevitably vocal 'hardcore fan base'. And this group forms a small subgroup of the repeat purchasers - (probably 20% of them, ie 4% of all people who've ever bought anything from Bioware). Its a hugely valuable segment, but far outweighed by the potential for expanding the appeal of the product successfully.

Besides, even that 4% aren't that similar in what they want. Maker knows, you can't spend any time on the BSN without spotting the deep divisions between long-term fans.

Modifié par Wozearly, 10 décembre 2012 - 12:56 .

[Sol Downer]

In Exile wrote...

CrazyRah wrote...
This is pretty much how i see it aswell. That the only real difference between casual and hardcore is the time you can/decide to pour into gaming

And how much you know about gaming. Playing angry birds means knowing how to tap your phone screen. Playing COD means having your console/PC, an internet connection, and an awareness of how FPSs work.

To play CoD is to squeeze the right trigger, to be good at it is a different story.

[addiction21]

Hardcore fans have always and will always be a small fraction of the actual fandom.

[Jorina Leto]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

How does one define a casual and hardcore fan?

Fan: Does visit the BSN regularly. The BSN is his primary source of information about Bioware games. The fan did finish the game multiple times. Will most likely buy DLC.

Casual: Can only be found on the BSN for a short time befor and after the a major game release, if at all. The primary source of information about Bioware games is not the BSN. May not finish the game. Is unlikely to buy DLC.

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

If we're talking about Dragon Age in particular, I think anyone who plays the game more than once is hardcore.

I haven't played the game more than once.

[DarkSpiral]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If we're talking about Dragon Age in particular, I think anyone who plays the game more than once is hardcore.

I haven't played the game more than once.

But do you consider yourself hardcore?  A FAN (of Bioware), sure.

[Maria Caliban]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If we're talking about Dragon Age in particular, I think anyone who plays the game more than once is hardcore.

I haven't played the game more than once.

But do you consider yourself hardcore?  A FAN (of Bioware), sure.

By the example I provided, I am.

[addiction21]

J. Reezy wrote...

I've always liked the definition that a casual game is likely to appeal to and be played by people of all ages and genders.
They're not designed for an audience with a specific set of game experiences but for everyone. Gamers and non-gamers.

But how am I supposed to feel superior to total strangers if we dont have labels?