162 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

You know what a hardcore fan is?

They are people on this forum. Everyone else is casual.

[eyesofastorm]

Haven't read the thread, so the answer might have already been given, but it's relatively simple: 1) the casual market is MUCH bigger than the hardcore market, even more so for niche game like tactical RPGs 2) "the industry" assumes it can take the hardcore for granted and get away with it. They can make and market games for casuals knowing that they will retain a majority of the hardcore market because there just aren't any alternatives for the hardcore players to migrate to right now. I think there are problems with that outlook, but the industry is too young to provide examples that one could point to as a reason why you should not take your most loyal customers for granted and it's too undeveloped to give the hardcore alternatives where they could essentially vote with their wallets. Right now, the choice is essentially to play games that were developed counter to your tastes or to exit the hobby. Most people, I would venture, are not willing to take the second option in order to make a statement. So there it is.

[Bob Garbage]

Most people that game, are casual gamers. Hell most people are casual about their entertainment in general. Many of my friends tell me they just don't understand how I can pay attention to games that are open world, 30+ hours, full of different characters, etc. But they themselves certainly don't mind putting several hours a week into Halo, or Assassins Creed, or whatever other big title they've allowed themselves to get into over the years. What they really mean, is that they can't believe I have enough interest, to focus on a game that is more challenging than pointing and shooting, and deeper than "kill all the bad guys". Because gaming for them is about nostaligia, comfort, and ease. Kind of like how some people get into good music, and other people listen to top 40. The casual listener isn't really interested in what's good, as much as they're interested in what's popular, and easy. This is really where ME3 (and to a lesser extent DA2) got into trouble with so many of their "hardcore" fans. Because people who play games for a challenge, depth, and an intellectual story aren't into shiny things and mashing the A button.

[JediHealerCosmin]

Casual fans can also become hardcore ones in the long run.
For example, I wasn't into the Final Fantasy games because the concept of the JRPG didn't appeal to me all tha that much. However, this fall I spent a few months in the hospital and I was so freaking bored I randomly started playing FF4 on an SNES emulator.

To make a long story short, I am playing every FF game now in order...

[Ridwan]

LinksOcarina wrote...

You know what a hardcore fan is?

They are people on this forum. Everyone else is casual.

Ain't that the truth, hell just look at the average post length on this forum.

[Raikas]

EntropicAngel wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...
let say DA:O is casual game, but very well made casual game. Addictive. With many choices and possibilities, even if you are locked on straight path.

Using your own definitions, you're absolutely wrong for DA:O. That game is hard if you've never played tactics, attribute-based games before. On my first playthrough I was using thr console commands a lot. And even on my latest playthrough, after half a dozen, with the wrong group I was getting pounded--not losing everyone, but one person (leliana in this case) was dying in almost every fight.

That just shows how subjective this is - "easy" for whom? "Difficult" for what market?  The comparisons only make sense if they're relative to something else (at leat in general - I suppose at the extremes we can say that Angry Birds is clearly a casual game and something like the 30-year-old Oubliette with its thousand page manual is pretty hardcore).

Bob Garbage wrote...

 Because gaming for them is about nostaligia, comfort, and ease. Kind of like how some people get into good music, and other people listen to top 40. The casual listener isn't really interested in what's good, as much as they're interested in what's popular, and easy. This is really where ME3 (and to a lesser extent DA2) got into trouble with so many of their "hardcore" fans. Because people who play games for a challenge, depth, and an intellectual story aren't into shiny things and mashing the A button.

 
I think that's rather simplistic.  Certainly there is mainstream music that's good  - and just as certainly plenty of people who play "challenging" games (however you choose to define that) also play casual games.    When someone complains that the current crop of titles are terrible compared to their favourites of the past, is that not nostalgia?    And when it comes to "popular and easy" a lot of that is based on accessibility rather than a burning desire to mash buttons/listen to top 40 - that's a question of marketing and sales channels at least as much as it’s one of consumer taste.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Because there are more of us casual gamers than hardcore gamers; therefore, we will as a whole buy more products.

[Wrathion]

I really don't know why there needs to be a separation of gamers.

But I guess there needs to be a hierarchy in everything. People don't know how to live if they aren't denigrating people that aren't like them.

Maybe "hardcore" gamers whine too much. Who knows.

[Bob Garbage]

Hervoyl wrote...

Bob Garbage wrote...

 Because gaming for them is about nostaligia, comfort, and ease. Kind of like how some people get into good music, and other people listen to top 40. The casual listener isn't really interested in what's good, as much as they're interested in what's popular, and easy. This is really where ME3 (and to a lesser extent DA2) got into trouble with so many of their "hardcore" fans. Because people who play games for a challenge, depth, and an intellectual story aren't into shiny things and mashing the A button.

 
I think that's rather simplistic.  Certainly there is mainstream music that's good  - and just as certainly plenty of people who play "challenging" games (however you choose to define that) also play casual games.    When someone complains that the current crop of titles are terrible compared to their favourites of the past, is that not nostalgia?    And when it comes to "popular and easy" a lot of that is based on accessibility rather than a burning desire to mash buttons/listen to top 40 - that's a question of marketing and sales channels at least as much as it’s one of consumer taste.

It is a generalisation yes. We are generalising large groups of people so it is hard to be anything but vague. Is there good mainstream music? Well like with games, movies, anything that is sold to us, the consumers of the world, there is some. I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to assume that what tends to be most popular is rarely so due to being...'the best', and rather what has the most business, corporate power behind it. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but again, generalising.

[Raikas]

what has the most business, corporate power behind it.

That's what I mean about accessibility though - making it less difficult to purchase the product. I think that's far more of a driver than being "into shiny things and mashing the A button".

And in terms of the OP's question, it seems like the answer is less about defining vague catagories of casual/hardcore gamer vs. casual/hardcore fan vs. casual/hardcore player (and the other distinctions that people are coming up with) and more about making a game that will have the marketing push to reach the largest number of people. And that part doesn't actually need to have anything to do with depth or difficulty or any other quality of the actual gameplay.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[rapscallioness]

A previous poster (sorry, I forget who..) made a good point. They said that BW wasn't necessarily trying to appeal to "casual" gamers, as much as they are trying to poach current hardcore fans from other genres. Or at least, share them as fans.

There are alot of stereotypes. Rpg enthusiasts think the Cod players are..dull witted. Cod players think Rpg players are weak and less capable gamers. Neither, of course, is true. So, BW and other devs, are trying to get players of different genres to give their games a try. They might like it.

That is a very difficult thing to do, however. Ppl like what they like. Once someone is set, it is extraordinarily difficult to get them to switch over. Or even try the product unless there's really nothing else at the moment.

It's like whether you drink Coke, or Pepsi. The difference in product is actually minute, but ppl that drink Coke--drink Coke. And vice versa. They may get a Pepsi if that's all there is, but if there is a choice, they're going w/what they always go with. It's what they like. It can also become generational.

They have some apps and some FB stuff trying to generate interest in their games. And that's cool. The more the merrier. I know I'm always trying to spread the "Good News" to friends and Fam.

Point is, I don't think it has anything to do with Casual vs. Hardcore. I think it has to do with working to cross genre lines---that are already becoming blurred.

But as I said, that's difficult. Heck, I remember when Coke tried to change its taste. Something like the "New Coca-Cola". Lmao! That was a mess. Ppl took one sip and were like, "What the hell is this shyte! This isn't Coke! This is some Pepsi wannabe!" and threw it back in their face. Try as Coke did, ppl weren't having it.

I actually think it would be better to reach out more to--casual? gamers. Again whatever that means. Mainly, ones that don't even know your product exists. Imo, that should be a function of marketing. Not game design.

Most ppl that say like the FB games, etc. Simply don't know BW exists. They think of gaming as CoD/MW. It's the most well known. The truth that the industry is actually very large and diverse escapes them.

But really, if wanna go mainstream, you need to go mainstream. Pitching the product purely thru game journos and Cons is not going to do it. Those things are for "gamers". IGN? PAX? Wth are those?

Some traditional marketing outlets might help to get more of those FB/Angry Birds fans to become good old BW junkies craving another fix....

[shirespartan]

Once the games bought its bought, the hardcore fans just mean the game needs to be maintained for a longer period of time where as the casuals will just buy play and shelf, when a company like EA is running the show they dont really care what happens 2-3 years down the line, its all about maximizing sales then moving on as fast as possible.

[nightscrawl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Granted, I don't think "hardcore" and "casual" are really descriptive terms so much as slurs and tribal outgrouping.

Sadly true.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That depends on what the thread is complaining about.  

My question wasn't really directed at you, but rather the OP (just to clarify since I am prone to not directly quoting the post above me when I respond to posts above me >.>).

See thread.

shirespartan wrote...

... the hardcore fans just mean the game needs to be maintained for a longer period of time where as the casuals will just buy play and shelf...

I would say the exact opposite is true actually. If a "hardcore" person buys a game and finishes in a couple of days, where a "casual" person has only 1 hour a night to do a few quests, kill a few things, and turn the game off, or even just some hours of play over the weekend, the casual gamer will need the game to be maintained longer because it will take them longer to finish it.

Time devotion to games is the main difference in groups I think.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:45 .

[abaris]

Lord Issa wrote...

Because there's more of them. However, I disagree that Bioware are trying too hard to appeal to casuals-broadening your target market isn't quite the same as going casual.

You'r quite right in saying there's more of them. But at the same time they're like locusts, moving to greener pastures once that particular field is barren.

And yes, in my opinion Bioware tries very hard to appeal to casuals. I have no problem with that, since forewarned is forearmed and I didn't buy DAII nor ME3 with good reason. With DAIII I will have a good hard look before I decide on anything.

[In Exile]

abaris wrote...
And yes, in my opinion Bioware tries very hard to appeal to casuals. I have no problem with that, since forewarned is forearmed and I didn't buy DAII nor ME3 with good reason. With DAIII I will have a good hard look before I decide on anything.

You can totally play this as a fill in the blank game! Go with:

It was obvious when NEW BIOWARE GAME abanoned ABSTRACT CONCEPT by GAMEPLAY FEATURE it left the true fans from OLD BIOWARE GAME behind.

For example: 

It was obvious when DA:O abandoned ROLEPLAY by INTRODUCING ORIGINS it lef the true fans FROM BG2 behind.

Modifié par In Exile, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Nefla]

Casual fans are far more numerous and less demanding. Casual fans tend not to even finish games let alone do multiple playthroughs so less resources are required to please a casual fan. My friend is a casual fan of BW games and I don't think he has beaten a single one. He has never purchased a DLC in his life, he doesn't know the names of most of the characters, he seems to buy the games at random, sometimes skipping an installment in a series, but he's also never written a scathing review, begged for certain features, ranted about drops in quality, etc...he just doesn't care. If I tell him "this game sucks" he wont buy the game. That's all the prompting he needs, he wont research it on his own or read reviews or anything. He liked DA:O but didn't buy DA2 because I ranted about it to him at some point.

Hardcore fans are demanding and will notice cut corners, inconsistencies, and general crappiness and are extremely vocal with their love or hate. Hardcore fans can quote many lines from the games they like, will remember even unimportant side characters, items, lore, etc...Hardcore fans want a challenge, want mental stimulation through battle tactics, puzzles, whatever. Casual fans want things to be easy and want everything spoonfed to them.

Catering to the casual fan is cheaper, easier, and there are far more of them.

[abaris]

It was obvious when DA:O abandoned ROLEPLAY by INTRODUCING ORIGINS it lef the true fans FROM BG2 behind.

Yeah, it might. But I could go with them up until Origins, less with Awakening. I still loved that game.

For me the breaking point was DAII. I played the demo and was that revolted that I alt/escaped to desktop everytime I tried. I knew instantly this wouldn't be worth my buck.

[Robhuzz]

Guess there are a lot them. And they don't have such high standards (Just look at the 10m people purchasing the same COD game every year, or most sports games for that matter). They won't complain when a game sucks, they'll just move on to the next one.

All in all, a publisher's dream audience I recon.

[abaris]

Robhuzz wrote...

Guess there are a lot them. And they don't have such high standards (Just look at the 10m people purchasing the same COD game every year, or most sports games for that matter). They won't complain when a game sucks, they'll just move on to the next one.

All in all, a publisher's dream audience I recon.

I guess only an enemy of their wallet buys a COD game for the single player.

But I think Bioware is wrong in assuming that easy money is their business. There are enough companies that already pull the crap for gold stunt very successfully and may I say more artfully than Bioware, DAII doesn't seem to be the ****** when it comes to sales. I'm less certain about ME3, but all in all I don't believe you can conquer them all in one go. You have to define your target audience before development. Fail that and you will always be found lacking by one group or the other.

[Shadow Fox]

Cause they out number you 5 to 1 and are far easier to please.

[Ridwan]

Sean Malstrom describes this forum perfectly.

1) Game comes out and is popular.
2) While normal people eventually move on to other games, some people keep playing the game religiously.
3) These people build websites, forums, communities, and dissect the game to death. They give themselves the crowns of experts.
4) The sequel of the game is announced. These ‘experts’ are very excited.
5) Once they get the game in their hands, the following occurs:
A) Once they begin to digest the sequel, they start making suggestions to the company to “fix the game”. The game company ignores them because they want to sell as many copies as they can. The ‘experts’ are shocked that the game company is ignoring THEM. After all, they see themselves as the supreme experts of the game. They literally expect the game company to give a snappy salute and say, “Sir! Yes sir!” and begin redoing the game toward the ‘experts’ wishes.
The ‘experts’ begin talk of how the game company has ‘fallen’ and aren’t as good as they used to be. The ‘game company’ doesn’t CARE anymore. They attack the ‘eeevil casual gamers’ who, apparently, are the only ones the game company listens to.
C) Suddenly, everything becomes “wrong” in the game according to the ‘experts’. The art is wrong. The sound is wrong. The gameplay is wrong. The code is wrong. They declare the company doesn’t know what it is doing.

Mind you, some stuff truly is unforgivable. Like the recycling of maps or the ****ty ending, but I think that's become evident that it's not the complaint of a few hardcores, but a real problem.

[Todd23]

The OP answered his own question. We're here to stay. It's the people coming and going that they want to content with for the all mighty dollar.

[Robhuzz]

abaris wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Guess there are a lot them. And they don't have such high standards (Just look at the 10m people purchasing the same COD game every year, or most sports games for that matter). They won't complain when a game sucks, they'll just move on to the next one.

All in all, a publisher's dream audience I recon.

I guess only an enemy of their wallet buys a COD game for the single player.

But I think Bioware is wrong in assuming that easy money is their business. There are enough companies that already pull the crap for gold stunt very successfully and may I say more artfully than Bioware, DAII doesn't seem to be the ****** when it comes to sales. I'm less certain about ME3, but all in all I don't believe you can conquer them all in one go. You have to define your target audience before development. Fail that and you will always be found lacking by one group or the other.

Sadly, the dollar rules bioware through EA now. EA is only interested in making as much money with as little effort and risk put in as possible. Waiting for an independent developer to make a name for themselves and then buying their succesful IPs and the entire studio is what they do. Then they rush out some watered down sequels with explosions or awesome action everywhere every 60 seconds to make sure even brain damaged turtles can follow it to appeal to the masses while also still appealing a bit to the old fans. It's EA's standard these days.

And no matter what bioware wants, when EA says something, they'll just have to do it. And we saw the results in the form of DA2 and ME3. Sadly, appealing to the masses instead of a select group is the better business model. If you don't care about the quality and originality of your game and are just looking to make a quick buck.

[Realmzmaster]

I find it funny that gamers look back at BG1 and games like that and say see that was hardcore gaming. I assume fourtten years from now gamers will look back at the Dragon Age series and say the same thing. What is hardcore or casual is relative.

What some saw as hardcore others at the same time saw as tedious. I personally loved all the big manuals that came with the games of that time period describing everything. But those manuals were necessary, because everyone did not play D & D. So the mechanics had to be described along with all the talents and spells.

One way for Bioware/EA or any developer to appeal to casual gamers is to have a good in-game tutorial. Let the oldtimers or "hardcore" skip the tutorial and give them the points that would come from the tutorial to build their character.

A good tutorial goes a long way to educating newcomers to the mechanics. In doing so you can turn those casuals into repeat business.

Designing a game just for the hardcore is a losing enterprise. The amount of money that niche generates is not large enough to justify a AAA game.

Before anyone says that they should design the game for hardcore and then put in elements that would make it more accessible to newcomers, design simply is not that easy. If a developer is going to design a game that can appeal across difficulties then that has to be incorporated at the beginning.

It is like you are building steps to a house that must also accommodate a ramp for wheelchair access. The planning for both must be ideally done at the same time rather than trying to tack on one after finishing the other..