234 réponses à ce sujet

[mauro2222]

Kel Riever wrote...

The problem here already is people taking the refuse ending seriously.

EITHER, BioWare wanted to make an attempt to include people who thought their choices were awful. And so they added the refuse out of the goodness of their hearts.

OR BioWare was ticked off that people thought the endings were dumb, and so wanted to slap players in the face with an insult. You would think people would be above spending all that time coding. But this is potential ego we are talking here....

Refuse is a meta choice for people as far as I can tell and is based on the interpretation above. Only an ending fan sits there trying to justify refuse and then say, "Ha Ha awful choice." Completely oblivious to the failure that BioWare made in a) the EC as an explanation for their terrible job on the endings instead of making a worthwhile ending, and including refuse.

Most refusers I see choose it because they are basically saying, "Hey, since your writing is awful, I'll choose this awful nonsense called refuse because I still don't like your choices A, B or C. Or just because you think you are insulting me and it still doesn't make your choices A, B or C any better." Honestly, few people I know sit there and waste time trying to make sense of refuse. I wish a lot more people would spend a lot less time trying to make any sense out of any of the mutant endings. Then we can all just spend time laughing at it.

Laughter heals!  Its like Medigel.

Agree again. You're a wise man Zaeed.

[M Hedonist]

Pedrak wrote...

Sauruz wrote...
Do I need to explain "Genocide" at this point? Because I've seen others on this forum who didn't quite understand the ramifications of that term...

My point is that the term "genocide" carries certain implications of hate and deliberate desire to hurt a certain group which don't really describe Shep's dilemma and intent here. By using the word "genocide" for Destroy you're colouring it in a specific  way... and doing it while softening all the deaths by Refuse with the pretty "Population Bottleneck" term reeks of a pretty obvious double standard.

Shepard in Destroy is no more genocidal than a general choosing to sacrifice 50 men instead of 500 is a mass murderer.

That's because there simply is no other accurate term, at least to my knowledge. If you want to invent a new word for it, go ahead. Until then, I will refer to it as what happens: Genocide; the deliberate act of killing an entire species. The only part you might disagree with is "deliberate", but it really is deliberate to some degree since Shepard could've chosen one of three alternatives, at least if you have high EMS.
I just use the "Population Bottleneck" term to make a comparison, and to show that this kind of thing happens in nature, every now and then. Groups of a species, or entire species almost get eradicated through cataclysmical events, but parts of them survive and the species eventually recover, more or less. Imo it has more positive connotations simply because it is a more positive thing.
But now we're arguing about semantics. I made my point: I prefer to let every species suffer instead of sacrificing one species for the well-being of the other species. It's a gamble, but in my view, every ending is a gamble, and I trust the galaxy I've learned to know and the forces I've gathered much more than I trust a device that was created by someone, quote, "you would not know".

Modifié par Sauruz, 11 décembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[Hey]

www.youtube.com/watch

[KLGChaos]

In my head canon, I refused and all the resources I brought together, all the races I made peace with, all the diversity that comes with our alliance has made it so we can beat the Reapers, on our terms, without committing genocide. Screw the whole "You can't win this conventionally" crap. Doing the impossible has been the basis of the game since its inception, including saving everyone on the suicide mission. That's how ME ended for me and that's how it will stay.

To quote Arrival:  Maybe you're right, maybe we can't win this- but we will fight you regardless! However insignificant we might be, we will fight. We will sacrifice and we WILL find a way. That's what humans do.

For all talk of sacrifice being the main theme of ME games, people seemed to also forget the other themes of overcoming the impossible, our diversity making us strong (why, synthesis, why?), and loyalty and friendship allowing us to do things those before us couldn't.

Modifié par KLGChaos, 13 décembre 2012 - 03:20 .

[Jadebaby]

mauro2222 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The problem here already is people taking the refuse ending seriously.

EITHER, BioWare wanted to make an attempt to include people who thought their choices were awful. And so they added the refuse out of the goodness of their hearts.

OR BioWare was ticked off that people thought the endings were dumb, and so wanted to slap players in the face with an insult. You would think people would be above spending all that time coding. But this is potential ego we are talking here....

Refuse is a meta choice for people as far as I can tell and is based on the interpretation above. Only an ending fan sits there trying to justify refuse and then say, "Ha Ha awful choice." Completely oblivious to the failure that BioWare made in a) the EC as an explanation for their terrible job on the endings instead of making a worthwhile ending, and including refuse.

Most refusers I see choose it because they are basically saying, "Hey, since your writing is awful, I'll choose this awful nonsense called refuse because I still don't like your choices A, B or C. Or just because you think you are insulting me and it still doesn't make your choices A, B or C any better." Honestly, few people I know sit there and waste time trying to make sense of refuse. I wish a lot more people would spend a lot less time trying to make any sense out of any of the mutant endings. Then we can all just spend time laughing at it.

Laughter heals!  Its like Medigel.

Agree again. You're a wise man Zaeed.

There's nothing to say you can't laugh while you try to make sense of it

Btw, I don't choose refuse to spite BioWare or because their other choices are dumb. I choose it because of that god damn speech!

That one speech. That one brilliant speech. Embodied more of my Shepard's ideals than any other line in the entirety of Mass Effect 3. All Shepard's other lines were riddled with doubt or forced drama, sometimes it was just something my Shepard would never say. But that speech!

It was perfect!

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 13 décembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[JBPBRC]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is very much in line with what Paragon Shepard would do...
And any other time, he'd find another way to win...

Another reason why playing as a "pure paragon" is stupid.

I really hated when Chakwas tells Shepard, regarding healing of facial scars, that "more optimism and less realism" was the way to go. Cue facepalm. Granted, the subject was specifically about the scars, just...

*headdesk*

[tanisha__unknown]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard doesn't know she's dooming the galaxy though, she's acting within her defined character. She's never been one to throw people under the proverbial bus just because it was more convenient. Not to mention that listening to the Reapers or their overlord hasn't historically worked out well for people.

So much this.

[adam32867]

Jinx1720 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shepard doesn't know she's dooming the galaxy though, she's acting within her defined character. She's never been one to throw people under the proverbial bus just because it was more convenient. Not to mention that listening to the Reapers or their overlord hasn't historically worked out well for people.

So much this.

exactly 

[Kel Riever]

mauro2222 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

The problem here already is people taking the refuse ending seriously.

EITHER, BioWare wanted to make an attempt to include people who thought their choices were awful. And so they added the refuse out of the goodness of their hearts.

OR BioWare was ticked off that people thought the endings were dumb, and so wanted to slap players in the face with an insult. You would think people would be above spending all that time coding. But this is potential ego we are talking here....

Refuse is a meta choice for people as far as I can tell and is based on the interpretation above. Only an ending fan sits there trying to justify refuse and then say, "Ha Ha awful choice." Completely oblivious to the failure that BioWare made in a) the EC as an explanation for their terrible job on the endings instead of making a worthwhile ending, and including refuse.

Most refusers I see choose it because they are basically saying, "Hey, since your writing is awful, I'll choose this awful nonsense called refuse because I still don't like your choices A, B or C. Or just because you think you are insulting me and it still doesn't make your choices A, B or C any better." Honestly, few people I know sit there and waste time trying to make sense of refuse. I wish a lot more people would spend a lot less time trying to make any sense out of any of the mutant endings. Then we can all just spend time laughing at it.

Laughter heals!  Its like Medigel.

Agree again. You're a wise man Zaeed.

Hah, right back at you Aria, you  badass!

@Jade8aby88:  Yeah, I like the speeches, some of them, like Shepards, Hackett's in Destroy, even Tricia Helfer does a good job in Synthesis.  Sadly, it was lost for me long before that.  Its just with every word that the StarIdiot says, the whole experience of 100 hours of Mass Effect games just starts turning into, "bark bark bark bark bark bark bark oh no BioWare, you didn't just screw up this badly, did you? bark bark bark you did, didn't you bark bark bark."

Modifié par Kel Riever, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[JPR1964]

arial wrote...

 I often see people on these forums saying they pick refuse because "My Shepard would not commit Genocide".

which makes me want to ask.

do you really picture Shepard the kind of person that would doom everyone, just because there were ones he could not save? 



I believe Spock said it best: www.youtube.com/watch

You're wrong, you just retrocogning the end of the game by saying that : refusal is a fine choice for people liking their game more rpg and less pew-pew I think.
Personnaly, my full parangon Sheppard doesn't even know why he should be discussing with a genocidal maniac AI : he just want to shut him off...

Siding with the starbrat is somewhere accepting genocide as a solution (for destroy) : I'm playing an human, a warrior, not a machine... The logic of Starbrat is humanly thinking a pile of bull****... 

Synthesis is worse : thematically and logically IMO. Pure deus ex mahina end style : oh sheppard, you're the only one I'm awaiting since million of years!!!! Your the only solution I was dreaming of!!!! Ok, I try to kill you numerous times, even if I can have follow you every time you have put a foot in the Citadel. But now, that you're just here : I can see the Light... And I can continue like this all night long...

Control : ok, I just kill TIM for those solution.. And who is telling me that I have to be faithfull in the word of an homicidal maniac AI? (we loop here)...

No refusal, is a fine solution, if it was done nicely : that's not the case... 

IMO, btw

JPR out!

Modifié par JPR1964, 13 décembre 2012 - 05:45 .