234 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

arial wrote...
lol, compared to Reapers, the Collectors were stuffed cats.

and besides, Shepard was at least saying back in ME2 that they had a chance against the Collectors, compared to ME3 where he utterly admits they can not win conventionally

Still did the impossible, have no reason to assume she can't again. Unconventioal can mean different things, not soley the use of a super weapon.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:14 .

[Steppenwolf]

Anything but refusal is so out of character for Shepard. When has Shepard ever let his enemies dictate the outcome? Refusal is Shepard changing the game and taking control away from the Reapers. It makes sense for a lot of my Shepards.

[Kawamura]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

arial wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is very much in line with what Paragon Shepard would do...
And any other time, he'd find another way to win...

lol, not at all.

Refuse is basicly saying "You won't let me save <insert here>? fine, go kill us all then!".

Shepards (even Paragon Shepards) goal has been "Save as many as possible". and according to various tidbits of dialogue throughout the trilogy you easily gain the impression that he knows "saving everyone" is unrealistic.

It's basically the same as if Shepard chose to stand around until the Virmire bomb goes off because he couldn't save both Kaidan and Ashley... only this time EVERYONE dies.

Sure. 

But only if, on Virmire, every possible outcome involved compromising every moral you'd ever had. You can save Ash at expense of Kaidan, but only if you take control of her body and forever deny her will. You can save Kaidan at expense of Ash, but only if you two embrace the bomb and have your consciousness impressed on his forever destroying his differences without his consent. You can destroy the bomb and have all your crew die for, uh, reasons that the Normandy randomly stops working. Oh, and you die too? 

Or you can decide to sacrifice all three of yourselves in the knowledge that the bomb will explode and the next group will be able to do it without the cost of each of the above action. 

It's not a perfect metaphor, but with refuse, the cost of every other option, of every choice given to you by a machine that might be lying anyways, their costs are far too high. So knowing that Liara has put away a time capsule with your junk in it, you take the long term view. You set up a cycle that will win without compromise and without possibly aiding the Reapers. You sacrifice one last cycle for the sure freedom of all life in the galaxy after you. 

No... your "destroy" metaphor falls flat on its face. Destroy just means you're sacrificing one (say, Kaidan) to save all the rest (Geth vs. every other race). Refuse means you stand around until the bomb goes off and everyone dies.

The only Shepard of mine who chose Refuse was my failshep, who walked towards Destroy, then heel-turned and popped the Catalyst out of spite.

Well, yeah, it the metaphor doesn't work correctly because the stakes are not high enough.

When you pick destroy, you're not only killing both one species, but you're promising further problems for life in the galaxy later, because your only ace in the hole, the "See, the quarians and geth get along" is turned into "organics view organics as being more valuable and will sacrifice synthetics at the drop of a hat", so every future race of synthetics has that knowledge when they awaken. 

Destroy means you sacrifice Kaidan after the Alenko's have a history of being treated like **** and murdered and the only reason he's helping you out is because you're not like that, but now you are, so now Kaidan's kid will see that and become a super villian and kill you. 

[Siripho]

arial wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Refuse is very much in line with what Paragon Shepard would do...
And any other time, he'd find another way to win...

lol, not at all.

Refuse is basicly saying "You won't let me save <insert here>? fine, go kill us all then!".

Shepards (even Paragon Shepards) goal has been "Save as many as possible". and according to various tidbits of dialogue throughout the trilogy you easily gain the impression that he knows "saving everyone" is unrealistic.

Oh, okay it's a thread like this is it? One constructed, not out of genuine interest for what others might feel intellectually, but one simply to point out with a 'lol' to those others that they are wrong?

For many of us who pick refuse, the reason given by Bill Casey is why we do it.

'lol' it up.

[DRTJR]

Refuse is thematically speaking the best ending, the last act of defiance against their machine/organic oppressors, and with the knowledge from Liara's dohickeys let the next cycle crush the Reapers like the squid-thingies they resembled.

I picked Destroy because I wanted some hot Quarian action after the whole thing was all over.

[Sejborg]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Anything but refusal is so out of character for Shepard. When has Shepard ever let his enemies dictate the outcome? Refusal is Shepard changing the game and taking control away from the Reapers. It makes sense for a lot of my Shepards.

Shepard let his enemies dictate the outcome back on Virmire. And the Arrival DLC where she destroyed a galaxy just to slow down the Reapers arrival.

And how are you taking control away from the Reapers when you let them win? 

[His Name was HYR!!]

Gareylycantrope wrote...


Saving as many as possible is exatly what Shep is trying to do in refuse, it doesn't work but that is what's intended.

 This is war. People die.

[DeinonSlayer]

Kawamura wrote...

Well, yeah, it the metaphor doesn't work correctly because the stakes are not high enough.

When you pick destroy, you're not only killing both one species, but you're promising further problems for life in the galaxy later, because your only ace in the hole, the "See, the quarians and geth get along" is turned into "organics view organics as being more valuable and will sacrifice synthetics at the drop of a hat", so every future race of synthetics has that knowledge when they awaken. 

Destroy means you sacrifice Kaidan after the Alenko's have a history of being treated like **** and murdered and the only reason he's helping you out is because you're not like that, but now you are, so now Kaidan's kid will see that and become a super villian and kill you.

You mean "the created will always destroy their creators?"

I thought the whole point of this was that we didn't believe the Catalyst's assertions. I'm not going to condemn every spacefaring species of the current cycle to extinction because of what they might do, the ideas they might get in the future, and what the synthetics of the future (if any) might think of what was done to save every species from extinction.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:17 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Gareylycantrope wrote...


Saving as many as possible is exatly what Shep is trying to do in refuse, it doesn't work but that is what's intended.

 This is war. People die.

Why and I Garey Lycantrope all of a sudden?

People die all the time, what's your point?

[KingZayd]

Refuse is tempting because it doesn't feel right that the Starchild will let me destroy the Reapers. It feels like a trap. I picked destroy though, although I'm not sure whether it's because Refuse wasn't an option before EC.

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Gareylycantrope wrote...


Saving as many as possible is exatly what Shep is trying to do in refuse, it doesn't work but that is what's intended.

 This is war. People die.

Doesn't mean we should add more by following the directions of the things doing the killing.

[Kawamura]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Well, yeah, it the metaphor doesn't work correctly because the stakes are not high enough.

When you pick destroy, you're not only killing both one species, but you're promising further problems for life in the galaxy later, because your only ace in the hole, the "See, the quarians and geth get along" is turned into "organics view organics as being more valuable and will sacrifice synthetics at the drop of a hat", so every future race of synthetics has that knowledge when they awaken. 

Destroy means you sacrifice Kaidan after the Alenko's have a history of being treated like **** and murdered and the only reason he's helping you out is because you're not like that, but now you are, so now Kaidan's kid will see that and become a super villian and kill you.

You mean "the created will always destroy their creators?"

I thought the whole point of this was that we didn't believe the Catalyst's assertions. I'm not going to condemn every spacefaring species of the current cycle to extinction because of what they might do, the ideas they might get in the future.

I'm not believing the Starkid, I'm looking at it from what it would look like to a Synthetic. 

If you know that you are not valuable, that you are lesser, than the Organics, that they would sacrifice you because you are toys and not alive at the drop of a hat, then there's no reason not to destroy them before they destroy you. You have proof of this now, for sure, because we push came to shove and **** got real, they went "you know what, we view your deaths as acceptable because you're machines". 

Why would a synthetic life form ever trust any organic life form again? They gave organic life a chance and it blew it. Organic life can make whatever excuses it likes to, but that's the truth, and it will be in the best interest of any new synthetic life to wipe organic life from the galaxy. 

That's personally why I think Destroy is a very silly ending. At least, with the high EMS, I think you do win without killing all geth (because of Shep's own breathing scene). 

[DeinonSlayer]

Kawamura wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Well, yeah, it the metaphor doesn't work correctly because the stakes are not high enough.

When you pick destroy, you're not only killing both one species, but you're promising further problems for life in the galaxy later, because your only ace in the hole, the "See, the quarians and geth get along" is turned into "organics view organics as being more valuable and will sacrifice synthetics at the drop of a hat", so every future race of synthetics has that knowledge when they awaken. 

Destroy means you sacrifice Kaidan after the Alenko's have a history of being treated like **** and murdered and the only reason he's helping you out is because you're not like that, but now you are, so now Kaidan's kid will see that and become a super villian and kill you.

You mean "the created will always destroy their creators?"

I thought the whole point of this was that we didn't believe the Catalyst's assertions. I'm not going to condemn every spacefaring species of the current cycle to extinction because of what they might do, the ideas they might get in the future.

I'm not believing the Starkid, I'm looking at it from what it would look like to a Synthetic. 

If you know that you are not valuable, that you are lesser, than the Organics, that they would sacrifice you because you are toys and not alive at the drop of a hat, then there's no reason not to destroy them before they destroy you. You have proof of this now, for sure, because we push came to shove and **** got real, they went "you know what, we view your deaths as acceptable because you're machines". 

Why would a synthetic life form ever trust any organic life form again? They gave organic life a chance and it blew it. Organic life can make whatever excuses it likes to, but that's the truth, and it will be in the best interest of any new synthetic life to wipe organic life from the galaxy. 

That's personally why I think Destroy is a very silly ending. At least, with the high EMS, I think you do win without killing all geth (because of Shep's own breathing scene). 

I don't think Destroy says synthetics are "less" in any way. It's a matter of minimizing casualties. It would be like choosing Aralakh Company (numerous individuals, capable of siring many offspring) over the Rachni Queen (one individual, capable of siring many offspring). Plenty of people have said they'd be willing to sacrifice the human race to stop the Reapers (in fact, the original script called for it).

I, personally, think High-EMS Destroy only targets Reaper tech. It clearly doesn't target synthetics. If it did, Shepard would die, and the entire Quarian race and every biotic in the galaxy would drop dead on account of their cybernetics. If the Geth hadn't insisted on augmenting themselves with Reaper tech, if EDI hadn't been based on it, they'd have survived it. The Virtual Aliens, etc., are fine.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:28 .

[Siripho]

The comparison of the Virmire choice in ME1 to the ending of ME3 is absurd.

ME1 - all of a sudden a rather large bomb about to go off. There is only one person of two who can be saved. You make your choice.

ME3 - all of a sudden some jumped up intergalactic do-whatty has appeared to you in a form taken from your very nightmares. It offers you a choice - to do one of three whatsit-maguffins all of which (as you stand there listening to his boohockey) have equally unknowable consequences. Or to refuse his sorcery in the hope that the coalition of alien species/synthetric lifeforms which you have been forming for the best part of three whole games can win through in the end. You make your choice.

[Steppenwolf]

Sejborg wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Anything but refusal is so out of character for Shepard. When has Shepard ever let his enemies dictate the outcome? Refusal is Shepard changing the game and taking control away from the Reapers. It makes sense for a lot of my Shepards.

Shepard let his enemies dictate the outcome back on Virmire. And the Arrival DLC where she destroyed a galaxy just to slow down the Reapers arrival.

And how are you taking control away from the Reapers when you let them win? 

Realizing that only one of your squadmates could be saved is not letting the enemy dictate the outcome, it's realizing that you can't be at 2 places at the same time. The Arrival DLC was garbage that took control of Shepard out of your hands. And choosing refusal puts the Reapers in the position of having to spend perhaps thousands of years trying to complete the cycle and gives us the chance to find another solution.
If you choose synthesis not only are you essentially raping all life in the galaxy, you're also saying Saren was right all along. If you choose control you're taking a huge chance in trusting that the GodChild was telling the truth in that you could maintain control of the Reapers, and you're saying that TIM was right. Destroy is IMO the only actual solution that isn't as bad as the problem. Wiping out the Geth(assuming you haven't done so already) is not too bad considering they were essentially a robot hivemind and can be replicated.

[cavs25]

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

[DeinonSlayer]

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[cavs25]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Is better to die fighting than walk into a trap and cripple your own fleet.  The reapers could have easily reprogramed the citidel to destroy the fleet
What the hell does Shepard know about that?
The fact that the Reaper overlord is offering you a deal seems fishy, like an act of desperation.
Who the hell makes a super weapon and makes it so the controls are basically killing the user?
What happened to buttons?

[Sejborg]

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

They were already loosing the war though. If you listen in on the radio on earth. It was known that the Reapers were too powerfull to beat. The odds are pretty much like David going up against one hundred billion super Goliath's. :innocent:

[thearbiter1337]

As a Refuser

Shep doesn't know that their gonna loose and why i picked Refusal is due to that my mostly Paragon Shep is told by the Overlord of the Reapers that the only way to defeat the Reapers is to choose a option that effects anyone when we can find another way on our own.

It isn't up for me to decide the Galaxy's faith just because a faulty A.I demands if the cycle ends it MUST fall under his own agenda.

[Sejborg]

cavs25 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Is better to die fighting than walk into a trap and cripple your own fleet.  The reapers could have easily reprogramed the citidel to destroy the fleet
What the hell does Shepard know about that?
The fact that the Reaper overlord is offering you a deal seems fishy, like an act of desperation.
Who the hell makes a super weapon and makes it so the controls are basically killing the user?
What happened to buttons?

It would make some kind of sense though. If the dude died when using the "end all superweapon" then that dude would perhaps think twice before putting his greasy thinker on the button. 

[DeinonSlayer]

cavs25 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Is better to die fighting than walk into a trap and cripple your own fleet.  The reapers could have easily reprogramed the citidel to destroy the fleet
What the hell does Shepard know about that?
The fact that the Reaper overlord is offering you a deal seems fishy, like an act of desperation.
Who the hell makes a super weapon and makes it so the controls are basically killing the user?
What happened to buttons?

Without the Crucible, the fleet is going to die. That's not up for debate. Pretending otherwise is like Gerrel pretending the Flotilla can outgun the upgraded Geth, and look how that turns out.

If the fleet goes down, the galaxy follows. The fleet is screwed as things stand. So you're basically saying you'd refuse to use the Crucible because it might screw your otherwise already-screwed fleet. You're standing on a cliff's edge, looking out at three platforms which you don't know if they'll support your weight. If you don't take a leap of faith with one of the choices, the ground will simply crumble out from under you and you'll die anyway.

Faced with that situation, you jump.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:32 .

[arial]

thearbiter1337 wrote...

As a Refuser

Shep doesn't know that their gonna loose and why i picked Refusal is due to that my mostly Paragon Shep is told by the Overlord of the Reapers that the only way to defeat the Reapers is to choose a option that effects anyone when we can find another way on our own.

It isn't up for me to decide the Galaxy's faith just because a faulty A.I demands if the cycle ends it MUST fall under his own agenda.

everypoint of the game disagrees with you.

Everytime Liara says "we can not win this Conventionaly", everytime Hackett says it, and everytime Anderson says it, Shepards response is "I know".

If they thought there was any chance to win this war conventionally they would not have put all the time and effort into a superweapon they have no idea what it does.

they were desperate, so Desperate they had to try the Crucible. Shepard, and every military leader knew it was their only chance, just like they kept saying.

[thearbiter1337]

arial wrote...

thearbiter1337 wrote...

As a Refuser

Shep doesn't know that their gonna loose and why i picked Refusal is due to that my mostly Paragon Shep is told by the Overlord of the Reapers that the only way to defeat the Reapers is to choose a option that effects anyone when we can find another way on our own.

It isn't up for me to decide the Galaxy's faith just because a faulty A.I demands if the cycle ends it MUST fall under his own agenda.

everypoint of the game disagrees with you.

Everytime Liara says "we can not win this Conventionaly", everytime Hackett says it, and everytime Anderson says it, Shepards response is "I know".

If they thought there was any chance to win this war conventionally they would not have put all the time and effort into a superweapon they have no idea what it does.

they were desperate, so Desperate they had to try the Crucible. Shepard, and every military leader knew it was their only chance, just like they kept saying.

Yeah but they told me getting to Ilos was impossible.

Also they told me going through the O4R was impossible too