234 réponses à ce sujet

[arial]

thearbiter1337 wrote...

arial wrote...

thearbiter1337 wrote...

As a Refuser

Shep doesn't know that their gonna loose and why i picked Refusal is due to that my mostly Paragon Shep is told by the Overlord of the Reapers that the only way to defeat the Reapers is to choose a option that effects anyone when we can find another way on our own.

It isn't up for me to decide the Galaxy's faith just because a faulty A.I demands if the cycle ends it MUST fall under his own agenda.

everypoint of the game disagrees with you.

Everytime Liara says "we can not win this Conventionaly", everytime Hackett says it, and everytime Anderson says it, Shepards response is "I know".

If they thought there was any chance to win this war conventionally they would not have put all the time and effort into a superweapon they have no idea what it does.

they were desperate, so Desperate they had to try the Crucible. Shepard, and every military leader knew it was their only chance, just like they kept saying.

Yeah but they told me getting to Ilos was impossible.

Also they told me going through the O4R was impossible too

But Shepard stated in both those situations that they at least had a chance, no matter how slim.

With The Crucible Shepard says outright "we can not win Conventionally, the Crucible is our only chance"

[l7986]

I refuse to refuse.

[darthoptimus003]

arial wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Sejborg wrote...
No. Shepard should know. Especially if you listen in on the radio on Earth. The forces are being squashed and blown to pieces in no time. 

It's a though battle, she expects casualties.

arial wrote...
not to mention, Shepards response everytime he
is told "You know we can't win this thing conventionally" (be Liara,
Hackett or Anderson saying it) has always been "I know".

Wasn't supposed to walk away from the collector base without losing people either Shepard's done the impossible before.

lol, compared to Reapers, the Collectors were stuffed cats.

and besides, Shepard was at least saying back in ME2 that they had a chance against the Collectors, compared to ME3 where he utterly admits they can not win conventionally

im sorry but not once did shep every say they coulndnt win conventionally
everyone else did
shep was always looking for an advantage by any means but not at the expense of others
but giving what took place at the end well death is prefrable then scraficing ur humanity to the likes of the damn thing that started the whole mess to begin with
kinda funny that the brat is the cause of the organic\\synthetic problem anyways
so yeah tell the starbrat to go f*** himself  we will die before we do what u say u little s*** (shoots him in the face smiling as he says it)
besides i thought we would find tech or the crucible was a sheild disrutor or something we could use to win as well as band the entire galaxy together to helpstop them and alot of people thought that way as well and im willing to bet alot of pro-enders did as well
and yeah i watched all of the endings and they all still suck a big one but refusal is the best one cause this is how shepard REALLY is

[DirtySHISN0]

arial wrote...

  "My Shepard would not commit Genocide".

They often miss the fact that principles don't absolve responsibility.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 10 décembre 2012 - 03:07 .

[Ticonderoga117]

arial wrote...
But Shepard stated in both those situations that they at least had a chance, no matter how slim.

With The Crucible Shepard says outright "we can not win Conventionally, the Crucible is our only chance"

Last I remember, Shepard didn't put much into actually coming back from the Omega 4 Relay. But oh look, we made it back. Some even got back with everyone from the Normandy. Or every squaddie and some people from the colony.

[frostajulie]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Anything but refusal is so out of character for Shepard. When has Shepard ever let his enemies dictate the outcome? Refusal is Shepard changing the game and taking control away from the Reapers. It makes sense for a lot of my Shepards.

Yup

[Auintus]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Anything but refusal is so out of character for Shepard. When has Shepard ever let his enemies dictate the outcome? Refusal is Shepard changing the game and taking control away from the Reapers. It makes sense for a lot of my Shepards.

My Shepard differs from yours.
Refuse isn't changing the game. It's flipping the board, giving up. The Reapers are in complete control with the sole exception of the Crucible, then you quit and give up the one thing you have that actually stands a chance. That's not taking control away from the Reapers, that's what the Control ending is for.

[EagleScoutDJB]

I see Sheparsd as someone who never gives up no matter what the odds and would never take the word of the Reaper's creater that these are his only 3 options.

Modifié par dbollendorf, 10 décembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[NeroonWilliams]

To all those saying "that's the thing Shepard would do", I say "really, which Shepard?"

I picked up Mass Effect for the roleplaying element. All of my Shepards have distinct backstories and motivations. Each of my Shepards has faced that final decision with their own prejudices and baggage. My broken Shepard who has made costly mistakes and lost a lot chose Refuse because he felt he wasn't up to making the decision. My egghead engineer chose Synthesis, because it actually made sense to her. My pure paragon Shepard chose Control because it offered the hope of saving everyone. My full renegade Shepard chose Control because she was arrogant enough to believe that she knew better than anyone how to run things, and my bully Shep did so for similar reasons. My **** soldier chose Destroy because that's always been the goal. My duty bound Alliance officer chose Destroy because that's what she was told to do. And my hotheaded paragon chose Destroy because his temper got the better of him again.

Now on to metagaming. We all know how all of the choices play out. My personal *best* choice is Control because it does spare everyone and the status quo is regained fairly quickly with the Shreapers repairing the damage. Plus Shepard *survives* and if need be can nudge things back to where they "should" be if the balance gets out of whack.

Next is actually Refuse. The logic of the Leviathan's AI is correct. The only way to ensure the survival of intelligent life is to continue the cycles no matter how monstrous that may seem to each cycle.

Synthesis will solve the problem of organic vs synthetic, until a new synthetic race is created as a subservient race. Then the cycle begins anew.

Destroy breaks the cycle. YAA! No more Reapers! Oh, wait. Now there's nothing to stop the inevitable next generation of synthetics from enslaving/eradicating all organic life. Good luck with that.

[JG The Gamer]

The way I see it is that in the cases of Virmire, Arrival, and the Crucible, our hand was forced. In the case of Virmire, you can only save Kaidan or Ashley. Since one of them activated the bomb, there's only enough time to save one of them. With Arrival, the Reapers were going to be all over the galaxy in two hours if the relay wasn't destroyed. By making the call to sacrifice 300,000 batarians, you postponed the invasion by about 6 months. As bad as the outcome is, it gave the galaxy time to prepare (which the galaxy didn't do too much of).

And then the Crucible. Again your hand is forced and you do not have much time to make a choice. The Sword Fleet is in no way going to defeat the Reapers. It's merely the biggest distraction in galactic history. Shield Fleet is only there to protect the Crucible. And Hammer team just needs to get a few if not 1 person on the Citadel and they're getting ripped to shreds.

At gut check time, you have to make a choice and it's quite easy.

If you do not use the Crucible: You and every advanced organic lifeform are dead. That is a guarantee. Whether they are killed in action or melted down. They are all dead.

If you do use the Crucible: You and the rest of the galaxy MAY NOT be all dead. If it is supposedly a trap, you are all dead anyways. But that is not a guarantee.

I think I would choose the course that doesn't guarantee imminent death for the galaxy.

[MrFob]

It is worth noting how the refuse option came to be in the first place. After the original endings prompted the strong reaction that they did, there were quite a few people here on the forums who said they'd rather refuse the catalyst than give in to him, even if we lost. In particular, I remember this fan video here but it's just an example.
I even remember a thread where a dev (although I think it might have been Allan, who is not part of the ME3 team) asked if the ending would have been received better if their was a refuse option that entailed loosing. The overwhelming response was yes.

But why? I do agree that in the light of the EC, refusal seems pointless but in the context of the original endings, it made perfect sense. In these endings, we didn't see into the future, we didn't get to know the consequences of our actions. 99% of the people were convinced that Synthesis would have the worst repercussions possible on the galaxy. Almost as many were convinced that that Shepard becoming the reaper overlord wouldn't turn out well for anyone and more than enough were convinced that the exploding relays either destroyed everything in their blasts or at least stranded everyone where ever they were at the time, at the very least creating huge problems in the sol system and for the dextro-food dependent crew members of the stranded Normandy. Things looked a lot more bleak back then and refusal would have been seen as an outcome on par with the other endings.

And so, while BW "listened" to the fans with this option, yet again, they didn't really get the point. By slapping happy sunshine and rainbow outcomes on all the ending choices (the failure of which goes far beyond the point that is discussed here IMO), the refusal choice is seen in a very different context. From a meta gaming point of view it cannot be defended (unless you employ trick like the IT).
It can only be defended from Shepards point of view and that is best illustrated with the pre-EC endings. Shepard doesn't know the happy EC outcomes. S/he has not seen the slides where Wrex gets back to Tuchanka, where the Geth and the Quarians celebrate hand in hand (in synthesis at least) and where the Normandy takes of after 2 sunny weeks on the vacation planet. As far as Shepard is concerned, he just heard the most insane three proposals from the boss of the reapers.

And now comes the crucial point: Who is your Shepard? Is s/he ruthless enough to choose destroy? Is s/he arrogant enough to choose control? Is s/he enough of an optimist (or maybe even naiv enough) to choose synthesis? Or does s/he just have the right measure of insanity and idealism to leave it up to the next cycle? That is up to the player and that is a good thing.

People say that BW slapped the fans in the face with the refusal ending. I think it's the other way round. I think BW slapped those who wanted refuse in the first palce in the face with the EC epilogues for the old endings.

Modifié par MrFob, 10 décembre 2012 - 04:43 .

[nevar00]

Considering my Shepard joined up with Cerberus and randomly decided to give two sh*ts about a kid, I'd say that would've fit right up there with random decisions.

You also imply that Shepard had any reason to believe what the screwy space kid said. Because everything had been so well-explained and logical up to that point. Of course space magic-ing him into controlling the Reapers or turning everyone into cyborgs makes perfect sense as opposed to that being whatever the hell else you could imagine it being (because the guy who made the Reapers should be so kind as to explain the 'off switch' to you). Whereas at least in conventional battle you may stand more of a chance.

[nevar00]

NeroonWilliams wrote...


Destroy breaks the cycle. YAA! No more Reapers! Oh, wait. Now there's nothing to stop the inevitable next generation of synthetics from enslaving/eradicating all organic life. Good luck with that.

Except that wasn't a problem until Bioware needed it to be one for the last 5 minutes of the game and DLC.  Not saying I disagree with everything you're saying but this "created destroying the creators is inevitable" was hardly if ever touched upon in the main games.  Though I think Javik mentions some issue like that with the Protheans (though even that is DLC, huh).

[Red Panda]

I'm just waiting on Puzzle Theory.

[GimmeDaGun]

How do I picture "the Shepard" who chooses refusal?

Two ways: Either a selfish, individualistic, typical modern-times person (individum and egoistic self-determinative logic above all) or an idealistic, fanatic moron who only cares about his principles. Well yes, they are almost the same, if not the same.


Motto: Let the Devil take the hindmost!

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:54 .

[Not_art_just_plotholes]

arial wrote...

 I often see people on these forums saying they pick refuse because "My Shepard would not commit Genocide".

which makes me want to ask.

do you really picture Shepard the kind of person that would doom everyone, just because there were ones he could not save? 



I believe Spock said it best: www.youtube.com/watch

Actually I believe Shepard says it best: "I'm going to win this war, and I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species".

[The Aesthetic Ghant]

I've said the same for so much time.

I don't understand Refuse. The arrogance of it. Sacrificing the entire galaxy because of your personal philosophy. It's not justifiable in any sense of the word.

Shepard would do what's best for everyone in that situation. All the suffering and all the pain from all the 3 games means nothing if you're essentially just going to quit in the end.


I'd even take Synthesis over Refuse.

[Not_art_just_plotholes]

The Aesthetic Ghant wrote...

I've said the same for so much time.

I don't understand Refuse. The arrogance of it. Sacrificing the entire galaxy because of your personal philosophy. It's not justifiable in any sense of the word.

Shepard would do what's best for everyone in that situation. All the suffering and all the pain from all the 3 games means nothing if you're essentially just going to quit in the end.


I'd even take Synthesis over Refuse.

Fair enough, but even so, it doesn't stop the entire situation from being a contrived trainwreck. 

[GimmeDaGun]

I also love this genocide thing. What the geth? Come on, they are machines even if they are upgraded to the level where they can almost make you belive that they are people with souls. Yeah souls...

Also if you love the geth so much or think that synthetic life (???) is just as important as ...eeerrr...well... "life" than just pick Controll or Synthesis. Oh yeah, I know... Shepard can't go back to his\\her LI then... well so, Shepard wouldn't make the hard decision and destroy the synthetics with reaper technology in them (yeah by that killing the geth who upgraded themsleves with reaper technology), but he\\she wouldn't sacrafice his\\her life for "the greater good" either. Hmmmm... yeah, refusal Shepard is pretty much a spoiled, selfish and individualistic, self absorbed idiot. In my book definitely he\\she is.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:10 .

[Not_art_just_plotholes]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I also love this genocide thing. What the geth? Come on, they are machines even if they are upgraded to the level where they can almost make you belive that they are people with souls. Yeah souls...

Also if you love the geth so much or think that synthetic life (???) is just as important as ...eeerrr...well... "life" than just pick Controll or Synthesis. Oh yeah, I know... Shepard can't go back to hisher LI then... well so, Shepard wouldn't make the hard decision and destroy the synthetics with reaper technology in them (yeah by that killing the geth who upgraded themsleves with reaper technology), but heshe wouldn't sacrafice hisher life for "the greater good" either. Hmmmm... yeah, refusal Shepard is pretty much a spoiled, selfish and individualistic, self absorbed idiot. In my book definitely heshe is.

You just went full retard.

[The Aesthetic Ghant]

Not_art_just_plotholes wrote...

The Aesthetic Ghant wrote...

I've said the same for so much time.

I don't understand Refuse. The arrogance of it. Sacrificing the entire galaxy because of your personal philosophy. It's not justifiable in any sense of the word.

Shepard would do what's best for everyone in that situation. All the suffering and all the pain from all the 3 games means nothing if you're essentially just going to quit in the end.


I'd even take Synthesis over Refuse.

Fair enough, but even so, it doesn't stop the entire situation from being a contrived trainwreck. 

Agreed.

[TheWerdna]

cavs25 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Is better to die fighting than walk into a trap and cripple your own fleet.  The reapers could have easily reprogramed the citidel to destroy the fleet
What the hell does Shepard know about that?
The fact that the Reaper overlord is offering you a deal seems fishy, like an act of desperation.
Who the hell makes a super weapon and makes it so the controls are basically killing the user?
What happened to buttons?

Except Destroy does kill the Reapers...so um ya, mission accomplished, galaxy saved (minus the Geth, which I do really regret having to kill, but the alternatives were far worse)

[GimmeDaGun]

Not_art_just_plotholes wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I also love this genocide thing. What the geth? Come on, they are machines even if they are upgraded to the level where they can almost make you belive that they are people with souls. Yeah souls...

Also if you love the geth so much or think that synthetic life (???) is just as important as ...eeerrr...well... "life" than just pick Controll or Synthesis. Oh yeah, I know... Shepard can't go back to hisher LI then... well so, Shepard wouldn't make the hard decision and destroy the synthetics with reaper technology in them (yeah by that killing the geth who upgraded themsleves with reaper technology), but heshe wouldn't sacrafice hisher life for "the greater good" either. Hmmmm... yeah, refusal Shepard is pretty much a spoiled, selfish and individualistic, self absorbed idiot. In my book definitely heshe is.

You just went full retard.

Full retard? Care to explain or you just try to pick a verbal fight? Either way I have to go to work, so write me a private message or leave it like this, but please don't insult me when I didn't insult you.Thanks! Have a nice day to you too!

[KingZayd]

TheWerdna wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

cavs25 wrote...

People be metagaming....
What happens if Shepard refuses the catalyst and they actually win the war?
What then?
How does Shepard know what is going to happen at that exact moment in time?
He doesn't know what is going to happen. He might grab the power cords for control and die like a dumb ass.
What if he jumps into a green beam expecting magic and dies like a true imbecile?
Hackett: He believed that he could combine his DNA and all of the DNA of organics with the non existent synthetic DNA by jumping into a beam of light? He must have lost his mind....
What if Shepard would have shot that tube and it would have blown up the citadel?
Trusting the Reaper overlord in anyway is completely absurd
Believing at that moment that what he says is what is going to happen is beyond moronic.
Last time I checked Shepard wasn't psychic.

You've been told, over and over and over again, that a conventional victory simply is not possible by Hackett et al. Sword is meant to distract the Reapers. Allow the Crucible to be moved into place, and protect it long enough to activate it. They're buying Shepard time with their lives - they're not expected to seriously be able to kill all of the Reapers produced over the last 20,000+ cycles in one tumultuous battle.

Refuse is an act of throwing up your hands in the face of insurmountable odds and allowing yourself to be destroyed. Like what Admiral Gerrel does if you upload the code without telling him.

Is better to die fighting than walk into a trap and cripple your own fleet.  The reapers could have easily reprogramed the citidel to destroy the fleet
What the hell does Shepard know about that?
The fact that the Reaper overlord is offering you a deal seems fishy, like an act of desperation.
Who the hell makes a super weapon and makes it so the controls are basically killing the user?
What happened to buttons?

Except Destroy does kill the Reapers...so um ya, mission accomplished, galaxy saved (minus the Geth, which I do really regret having to kill, but the alternatives were far worse)

"A mad man sees what he sees"

[TheWerdna]

NeroonWilliams wrote...


Destroy breaks the cycle. YAA! No more Reapers! Oh, wait. Now there's nothing to stop the inevitable next generation of synthetics from enslaving/eradicating all organic life. Good luck with that.

Except I call complete BS on Starbrat's logic that synthetics wiping out organics is inevitible. I have to beleive that we can have peace, on our own terms without needing synthesis, or the Reapers. No matter how slim the chance of this happening may be, even if we are almost certainly doomed... there is not such thing as 100%, and the galaxy deserves to have a chance to try and built a brighter future where other have failed.