234 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm sure the soldier being mauled to death on Earth by husks after his wife was turned into one, and his daughter was rendered into gray paste, will die happy in the knowledge that The Shepard kept his hands clean when total victory was thirty paces and half a thermal clip away.

They'll never know.

Shepard, who is trapped in an unknown part of the Citadel with no food and not water, slowly bleeding to death anyway, will be dead long before the Reapers are done.

Actually at that point I'm long part caring for the fate of invisible fictional characters: It's too bad that you were relying solely on the Chosen One. She didn't make it. Hope you have a quick death.

[nos_astra]

arial wrote...
But Shepard stated in both those situations that they at least had a chance, no matter how slim.

With The Crucible Shepard says outright "we can not win Conventionally, the Crucible is our only chance"

It's not exactly Shepard speaking in all these case. It's the authors who know exactly where they want this to be going.

Shepard can't look into the future and I have no idea where Shepard is supposed to be getting his/her optimism from when it comes to suicide missions like Ilos (we have no idea what to expect, what the Conduit is, at best it'll be us against an army of geth with some super-weapon) or the O4R (we have no idea what we'll be up against, a fleet, a whole cvilization, five Reapers waiting for us?). There is no in-universe explanation for it.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I picked Refuse with my dumb Shepard. He sure was dumb, and then he got everyone killed. What a silly guy.

[garf]

arial wrote...

 I often see people on these forums saying they pick refuse because "My Shepard would not commit Genocide".

which makes me want to ask.

do you really picture Shepard the kind of person that would doom everyone, just because there were ones he could not save? 



I believe Spock said it best: www.youtube.com/watch

The latter assumes you believe that 'dooming everyone' is the only possible outcome of 'refuse'. We the players know that becuase Bioware are being a bunch of dicks.

Shepherd. ... Maybe she fancies her chances winning her own way. What a radical thought? It's never worked for her before. Right?

[Han Shot First]

Why would anyone want to roleplay a character who is a bumbling incompetent as a tactician, and who also happens to preside over the most disastrous military defeat in all of human history simply because pride got in the way of common sense?

Considering the consequences, Refuse may well be the biggest Epic Fail ending in the history of gaming.

[DeinonSlayer]

klarabella wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm sure the soldier being mauled to death on Earth by husks after his wife was turned into one, and his daughter was rendered into gray paste, will die happy in the knowledge that The Shepard kept his hands clean when total victory was thirty paces and half a thermal clip away.

They'll never know.

Shepard, who is trapped in an unknown part of the Citadel with no food and not water, slowly bleeding to death anyway, will be dead long before the Reapers are done.

Actually at that point I'm long part caring for the fate of invisible fictional characters: It's too bad that you were relying solely on the Chosen One. She didn't make it. Hope you have a quick death.

We've got some real command material right here... <_<

"So long as I won't be held personally responsible for it, I don't care what happens."

That's how that sounds.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:20 .

[nos_astra]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
We've got some real command material right here... <_<

"So long as I won't be held personally responsible for it, I don't care what happens."

That's how that sounds.

You are aware that I am not Shepard and don't command anything. (I wouldn't deny that I'm probably not command material anyway.)

Ok, let's tweak this for a less metagame-y and more in-character answer (but I'm not sure I can suspend my disbelief enough to pull it off).

The situation is dire. Shepard has failed on so many levels at that point. Failed to unite the galaxy in time, failed to provide evidence when there was time, failed to set the right priorities, failed to make useful allies, failed to find the Reaper's weakness, failed to find a solution. Shepard mostly fails unless she has someone telling her what to do, what to think (usually in form of a nice bow on the right answer and a little donkey jumping up and down next to the paraphrase screaming pick me, pick me, I' the morally superior choice!) or prompt her to make a decision (which they fail at while they usually plan and organise everything for themselves, these prompted decisions never have a real downside anyway).

Unfair? For a normal person yes, but the Chosen One should show some competence.

Shepard is good at one thing: SHOOT. THINGS. DEAD.
Oh, and be worshipped for no actual reason.

Refuse is the perfect cumulation of a series of unlikely events that lead to Shepard being the most overrated person in the universe. And at this point it shows: This, Shepard, is where not strategy and no tactics lead you. To a point the Reaper king offers you a solution on a silver platter and you have no one to rely on, no one to tell you what to do and no game railroading you. 

Enjoy the end of the galaxy. You truly deserve it.



I really do believe this is a fitting end to a universe inhabited by morons. (including Shepard)

Edit: Alternatively, I agree with the poster below me. None of the choices make any sense (I should kill myself and become the blueprint for a new AI? I should kill myself and then magic happens? I should activate the Crucible by SHOOTING at something?) which would cause Shepard to have a mental breakdown (Am I indoctrinated? What if I am?) and find herself unable to choose. 
She's just human after all.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

I believe Shepard would be intelligent enough to know that all three options don't make any sense and are probably all tricks considering who's explaining them. 

Has nothing to do with not wanting to sacrifice the Geth.  If thats the cost, so be it.  But why the **** is shooting a tube gonna do it?  How do I know the catalyst isn't trying toi trick me into sabotaging the crucible?  It doesn't make any sense. 

We as players know it works cause we can watch the endings, but irl you can't tell the future, you'd be a fool to jump at any of those choices on just the information Shepard is given.  I mean they could of at least made it something logical, like a big red button.  Shooting a tube?  Dafuq man. 

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:52 .

[andy6915]

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

Modifié par andy69156915, 10 décembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Eterna]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Refuse is the ending of choice for those unwilling to role-play a war criminal. Having the moral courage to reject the Catalyst’s racist mantra in making a choice that actually respects life, liberty and self-determination is easier for some than it is others.

That the game gives us the finger for doing so is an absolute disgrace.

How does assuming control of the reapers make you a war criminal? 

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Refuse is the ending of choice for those unwilling to role-play a war criminal. Having the moral courage to reject the Catalyst’s racist mantra in making a choice that actually respects life, liberty and self-determination is easier for some than it is others.

That the game gives us the finger for doing so is an absolute disgrace.

You clearly don't respect life when your choose to doom every single person in the galaxy, because you don't want to use the weapon right in front of you.

[Eterna]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Refuse is the ending of choice for those unwilling to role-play a war criminal. Having the moral courage to reject the Catalyst’s racist mantra in making a choice that actually respects life, liberty and self-determination is easier for some than it is others.

That the game gives us the finger for doing so is an absolute disgrace.

How does assuming control of the reapers make you a war criminal? 

At best, Control is a choice that champions authoritarian domination and slavery - at worst despotism.

....Right....

Modifié par Eterna5, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:15 .

[Applepie_Svk]

answer is easy, metagamming and naivity are bad things - that´s why refuse make a sense and stand with Shepard´s character and ME lore....

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Kacynski]

Actually as a player Refuse did give me the best feeling of all the endings. Finally the Reapers have been defeated and destroyed on my terms. Go f*** yourselves big, ugly cuttlefish. Getting to see that my actions mattered and the wisdom gathered and preserved in Liara's time capsule was kind of rewarding.

But in respect to Shepard and the ME galaxy Refuse does not make any sense imho. That was not what my Shepard has come to do for to the Citadel. She came to end the war with the Reapers. She came to save her friends and the galaxy the relied upon her. She could not refuse just to show the Catalyst the middle finger (even if I, as a player, wanted to do exactly that). So she made her choice and destroyed the Reapers because that's what she wanted to do since she first spoke to Sovereign: "You are not even alive, not really! You are just a machine and machines can be broken."

[Vigil_N7]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm sure the soldier being mauled to death on Earth by husks after his wife was turned into one, and his daughter was rendered into gray paste, will die happy in the knowledge that The Shepard kept his hands clean when total victory was thirty paces and half a thermal clip away.

Well put. Refusal Shepard carries out the biggest choke job in galactic history by not at least using the catalyst, whether that would be through control, synthesis or destroying it. 

It's also uncharacteristic for Shepard, regardless of how you would've roleplayed him/her. Up until that point, if you were paragon Shepard was always a "results, but at the most minimal amount of casualties" kind of guy. 

People need to realize that this wasn't the first time Shepard faced this dilemma. He did it with the Alpha relay, sacrificing 350,000+ batarian lives to halt the reaper invasion. This is exactly the same, the scale is much grander however. 

edit: It also makes little sense. Shepard does not destroy the reapers because he is against the possible genocide of the Geth..... only to have the Geth and ALL advanced organic life be wiped out anyway? Err, OK.

Modifié par Vigil_N7, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

Refuse is the ending of choice for those unwilling to role-play a war criminal. Having the moral courage to reject the Catalyst’s racist mantra in making a choice that actually respects life, liberty and self-determination is easier for some than it is others.

That the game gives us the finger for doing so is an absolute disgrace.

You clearly don't respect life when your choose to doom every single person in the galaxy, because you don't want to use the weapon right in front of you.

I'm embarrassed for you. For me, Reject was a choice predicated on the moral repugnancy of the 3 solutions on offer, Shep's respect for the most basic, inalienable rights of all sentient life in the galaxy, the information at hand and her absolute distrust of the Catalyst.

You are right in that the game actually celebrates the virtue of what I perceive to be 3 horrendous acts of violence and makes an absolute idiot of anyone attempting to role-play a morally virtuous Shep.....but that’s kind of my point too!

You still kill of every single person your Shep cares about and ignores the weapon you spent the entire game building. 

Silly choice. 

[Eterna]

Kacynski wrote...

Actually as a player Refuse did give me the best feeling of all the endings. Finally the Reapers have been defeated and destroyed on my terms. Go f*** yourselves big, ugly cuttlefish. Getting to see that my actions mattered and the wisdom gathered and preserved in Liara's time capsule was kind of rewarding.

But in respect to Shepard and the ME galaxy Refuse does not make any sense imho. That was not what my Shepard has come to do for to the Citadel. She came to end the war with the Reapers. She came to save her friends and the galaxy the relied upon her. She could not refuse just to show the Catalyst the middle finger (even if I, as a player, wanted to do exactly that). So she made her choice and destroyed the Reapers because that's what she wanted to do since she first spoke to Sovereign: "You are not even alive, not really! You are just a machine and machines can be broken."

Shepards cycle didn't destroy the reapers though, everyone died. The next cycle used the crucible plans Liara passed down to beat them. 

Which is funny because it makes refuse even more pintless, you died for absolutely nothing. 
 

Modifié par Eterna5, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:37 .

[RainbowDazed]

arial wrote...

 I often see people on these forums saying they pick refuse because "My Shepard would not commit Genocide".

which makes me want to ask.

do you really picture Shepard the kind of person that would doom everyone, just because there were ones he could not save? 



I believe Spock said it best: www.youtube.com/watch

My main Shepard picks synthesis but one of my Shepards chooses to refuse. That Shepard is an awesome, ruthless person; the kind of badass that does not settle for anything less than what she wants. She decided that this cycle is not yet ready to end the Reaper threat and that it is this cycles part in history to finish the crucible and be harvested to extinction. Victory is not everything, it has to be also done right. Otherwise it just prolongs the inevitable failure. From my perspective the stargazer-scene in refusal states that the next cycle got things right. They were able to end the Reaper-threat and continue their life from a clean slate.

My main Shepard on the other hand thinks that there is no clean slate anymore. What is done is done and the reality is that the organic life in the galaxy have built their civilizations on reaper tech (to what extenct is uknown - it might be that the currect organic species are themselves a result of reaper-assisted evolution). The reapers have dominated atleast this galaxy for millions of years and if the organic lifeforms wish to continue their existence, they have to do it either without reapers and their technology or in some form with the reapers. Getting rid of the technology would have severe and partially unknown consequences. Controlling that technology would mean enslaving thousands of Reapers who are the harvested entities of past cycles. Synthesis is a leap into the uknown. It'd mean a start of a new era in which a solution for the "organics vs. synthetics" problem is applied by merging these two lifeforms in some way. My main Shepard chose that the only way to get the slate clean is to take a leap of faith - together. It might be a solution that ends in a failure. If it is, then it's a failure that this galaxy needs.

In my eyes these two Shepards have something in common - they are both persons of extreme.

[Applepie_Svk]

Eterna5 wrote...

Kacynski wrote...

Actually as a player Refuse did give me the best feeling of all the endings. Finally the Reapers have been defeated and destroyed on my terms. Go f*** yourselves big, ugly cuttlefish. Getting to see that my actions mattered and the wisdom gathered and preserved in Liara's time capsule was kind of rewarding.

But in respect to Shepard and the ME galaxy Refuse does not make any sense imho. That was not what my Shepard has come to do for to the Citadel. She came to end the war with the Reapers. She came to save her friends and the galaxy the relied upon her. She could not refuse just to show the Catalyst the middle finger (even if I, as a player, wanted to do exactly that). So she made her choice and destroyed the Reapers because that's what she wanted to do since she first spoke to Sovereign: "You are not even alive, not really! You are just a machine and machines can be broken."

Shepards cycle didn't destroy the reapers though, everyone died. The next cycle used the crucible plans Liara passed down to beat them. 
 

Twitter canon... wow