234 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

andy69156915 wrote...

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

I like this.  

[Massa FX]

So the crucible really is just a tool to shackle the catalyst Al.

Modifié par Massa FX, 11 décembre 2012 - 04:55 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

andy69156915 wrote...

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

What a load of crap.
So the guy who's 100% at my mercy, and since he's at my mercy for kicks I decide to put a bullet through his glowing head. He ends up throwing a hissy fit and turning off my big impressive weapon because I what hurt heis feelings?
You're right that totally sounds like I'm in complete control of the situation. /sarcasm
But alright let's go with this idea that I control the Crucible with my mind but still have to shoot the tube to get it to work properly? What?
And let's not forget that this wonderful device can now do whatever I dream up, like synthesis, even though I have not at any given point thought about synthesis. Or how about making the Reapers drop their kinetic barrier and flying into the sun, no wait it doesn't do that does it?
Also how is shooting him in the head politely handing back control, and how does that work? Is the bullet imbued with some sort of master control program for the Crucible.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 11 décembre 2012 - 05:27 .

[saintjimmy43]

I like refuse but the end is just too abrupt, it doesn't feel real, it feels like it was just thrown in there because hey, some people wouldn't stop shooting the catalyst, this'll show 'em.
"My" Shepard is prone to Synthesis, because I want to see him give up his own life, but I'm not happy with having to play into the Catalyst's hands.

[Redbelle]

spirosz wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

Most of you "refuse" guys think that anything but refuse is letting the Catalyst dictate the terms? No, that's not how it worked. The Crucible was forcing him to relay information whether he liked it or not, even forcing him to bring up the destroy option when it was the number 1 thing he DIDN'T want chosen... And even explain how to do it. He also hated control, but was forced to mention it too. He didn't have a say in anything. If I decide to choose destroy or control, the best he can do is whine about it because he has absolutely no recourse to stop me. He can't even try a lie of omission, because the Crucible wasn't letting him do that either.

He didn't help you by choice, he didn't want to, gave you options he despised and told you how to do it regardless of his opinions, and was even forced to bring you up on that elevator at the control panel (the fact that he acts really really ticked off when he does this a low EMS is proof of that, because why else would he bring you up if he didn't even want you up there to begin with?). He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

That is also why refuse shuts down the Crucible. The Crucible was linked with you, and was doing what you asked it to. From the moment you touched the control panel, it was doing what your mind told it to. When you refuse, you're pretty much telling the Crucible to shut down. It's asking you through the Catalyst "what do you wish this program to perform?", and refusing is like you clicking cancel. Think of it as a computer, you have an EXE file (a non-virus one, before someone gets cute) asking what you wish to do and refusing is you clicking to cancel the file altogether. The moment you did that, the Catalyst stopped being controlled by the Crucible and regained full control of himself, which is why he's suddenly talking like a Reaper and making it clear that he's going to keep killing everyone, you handed the choice back to the Reapers by choice because of refusing. Refusing is telling the Crucible to shut down and allowing the Catalyst to regain control... Which is why it's such a supremely stupid choice. So when the Crucible asks what function you want done, give it a real answer, don't close the program out of fear. 

Refusers, you had the control of the Crucible and the Catalyst in your hands, and politely handed it back to the Catalyst by shutting the Crucible down. Epic "derp" moment right there. You had total control, was the one dictating the terms of how this encounter was going to go down, had the full house of cards to your chest... And responded by deciding to release control, let the Catalyst dictate instead, and folded the hand of cards you had. Good job.

I like this.  

But if all of that is true........... Why didn't this information get passed on from the developer to the player? We can go into 'it's not consistent with the narrative's portreyal of event's'. Or something else......... but what it comes down to is that this momumentally important decision in the history of the galaxy give's you 10 mins of exposition, and then expect's you to make a choice based on the POV of a character we know nothing about, and has to be taken at face value, even though we don't know enough about him to to trust his word at face value...........

It was written by one of the developers that the ending was unemotional and intellectural. Well, the Cat fit's that bill. But the player does not. There is a gap between the Catalyst and the player that simply cannot be bridged and when we try thread's with all these different POV's come along on what the endings actually mean.

Refuse is, in my opinion, the lesser of 4 evils. Even with the ECDLC I do not trust the Catalyst based on his performance in the crucible chamber. His wheel's within wheel's logic that does a complete U-turn and arrives back at where it started is, unnecessary in my play throughs. I have peace with Synth's and while Shep may not know what the future holds, reconiling the Quarian's and Geth is positive proof that Org's and Synth's can co-exist. And this co-existance is something that can be built upon if other synthetic life forms pop up. It doesn't neccessarily have to crumble.

On that score. Refuse is a good option because, since the other option's all enact an event that is redundant, or defeats the point of this cycles synth/org relationship, it gives' the player........... actually, it doesn't give the player anything other than the knowledge that the Reaper's will be neutered next cycle.

And there's the problem.

Give me a DMC style mid end credit's fight scene or a Halo Reach style Spartan's don't go down without a fight ending and at least we see and play Shep meeting the consequence's of his or her decision head on.

At least BW remembered Liara's time capsule and implemented that function. Refuse seems to have only taken that feedback from the players and put it in as it seemed to have been intended, neatly wrapping up that little narrative arc. Now if we can just have a conventional fight with a towering space squid bent on galctic genocide with the Catalyst on the sidelines yelling "Let em have it Harby! Get em Harby! Get em"!

Modifié par Redbelle, 11 décembre 2012 - 08:09 .

[nos_astra]

andy69156915 wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

You are aware that this is a massive jump in logic and only supported by a very weak one-liner from the Catalyst (the Crucible changed me, opened new paths) and the existence of the ending.

What do we know about the Reapers?
They built the Citadel and the relays.
These are left for each cycle to force them to develop along the paths the Reapers desire, as well as a trap.
The first thing every cycle loses are the Citadel and the relay network.
Without the Citadel it's impossible to create a device that interfaces with it, be it an energy source (as insinuated in the EC) or something way more sophisticated than that (like something that actually changes the programming of the Catalyst).

Ignoring the impossibility that is the Crucible, taking the least WTF-y route at face value:
So the Crucible is an energy source. This means the new paths were programmed (created, designed) by the Leviathans or the Catalyst himself and depend on someone creating an energy source to interface with the Citadel (in order to prove that they are worthy?), "forcing" Catalyst to grant access to these new paths.

At no point is the Catalyst at Shepard's mercy. Everything has been planned long ago and now it's happening through the powers of fate and ... well, lots and lots and lots and lots of dumb luck.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2012 - 12:57 .

[andy6915]

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

[SpamBot2000]

Seems to me the vitriol towards refusal comes from a desperate denial of getting played by the holochild big time. 'What, me dumb for jumping into green beam when King Reaper did so command? That's unpossible!'

[Redbelle]

andy69156915 wrote...

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

You have to bear in mind that the Catalyst is not a person in the way we are people. It's a problem solving machination. It does not want or not want the way we do. Speculative? Yep! But I cannot see the Levi's programming a tool with higher moral reasoning functions to guide it's decision making processes. It charts the best courses of action to bring about a result and picks the best one, using that criteria, regardless of the cost. Only in the case of the Catalyst upgrade it can discern more than one approach to the problem, but cannot actualise one without the intervention of a meat bag.

Modifié par Redbelle, 11 décembre 2012 - 10:04 .

[dorktainian]

Redbelle wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

You have to bear in mind that the Catalyst is not a person in the way we are people. It's a problem solving machination. It does not want or not want the way we do. Speculative? Yep! But I cannot see the Levi's programming a tool with higher moral reasoning functions to guide it's decision making processes. It charts the best courses of action to bring about a result and picks the best one, using that criteria, regardless of the cost. Only in the case of the Catalyst upgrade it can discern more than one approach to the problem, but cannot actualise one without the intervention of a meat bag.

funny that.  I always assumed that 'SHEPARD' was the catalyst and that star brat was just a reaper lie.

[Redbelle]

dorktainian wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

You have to bear in mind that the Catalyst is not a person in the way we are people. It's a problem solving machination. It does not want or not want the way we do. Speculative? Yep! But I cannot see the Levi's programming a tool with higher moral reasoning functions to guide it's decision making processes. It charts the best courses of action to bring about a result and picks the best one, using that criteria, regardless of the cost. Only in the case of the Catalyst upgrade it can discern more than one approach to the problem, but cannot actualise one without the intervention of a meat bag.

funny that.  I always assumed that 'SHEPARD' was the catalyst and that star brat was just a reaper lie.

Ok, Star Brat. Meant to say Star Brat. But Star Brat does call itself the Catalyst. Though I agree that it is Shepard's actions that ultimately cause the event's of each choice to unfold.

[GreyLycanTrope]

andy69156915 wrote...

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

He brings you up the elevator because he wants you he wants you near him regardless of EMS, he needs you to try and jump start his new solutions. He's a bit upset because you've somehow made his current solution invalid by attaching the crucible to Citadel, and the alterantives are still far from ideal because he doesn't have synthesis in low EMS. Somewhat weird logic I know but let's keep in mind we're talking about the Catalyst here, he does tend to leap to conclusions. The High EMS version still has control and destroy, he might not be fond of them compared to synthesis but he's still willing to use them compared to his current method because he's somehow dissatisfied with it now.
He doesn't really get upset until you shot him or tell him to sod off. "SO BE IT" comes of as angier than any other version of him I've yet to see. You not playing ball and helping him find a solution to his problem after invalidating his current solution is what he really hates, not destroy or control.

There I've gave you my take the questions you've brought up now try your luck with the ones I did in my above post and see how well you do in addressing your theory's inconsistansies.

[spirosz]

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

snip?

When did I write that? 

[GreyLycanTrope]

spirosz wrote...

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

snip?

When did I write that? 

You're post was used to quote andy. They're putting words in your mouth dude

[spirosz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

spirosz wrote...

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

snip?

When did I write that? 

You're post was used to quote andy. They're putting words in your mouth dude

BSN going nuts, LOL. 

[nos_astra]

spirosz wrote...

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

snip?

When did I write that? 

Sorry, I messed up when clearing up quotes to avoid pyramids. I was quoting andy...

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2012 - 12:58 .

[spirosz]

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...

klarabella wrote...

spirosz wrote...
He was 100% at your mercy, being forced to do what you and the Crucible demanded.

snip?

When did I write that? 

Sorry, I messed up when clearing up quotes to avoid pyramids. I was quoting andy...

Ahaha, it's all good.  

[Almostfaceman]

andy69156915 wrote...

So he brings you up on that elevator on low EMS even though he doesn't want you anywhere near him because he knows destroy will be what you're going to do? That's logical to you? He's also going to bring up destroy and control, 2 things he absolutely detests, even though he could have just lied and said that those weren't options? Heck, with control he's pretty much "I don't want to be replaced or controlled by YOU!" and Shepard's pretty much "suck it up, I don't give a damn what your opinion is, control it is".

But of course, the Catalyst is somehow choosing to do thing he hates and has no reason to do whatsoever, and won the moment you collapsed at the control panel. That was it, gameover, Reapers win. So why bring you up, if he's not being forced to?

Frankly, people saying I'm wrong, your stance has much more glaring flaws and holes then what my stance. There are inconsistencies that simply cannot be argued around if your stance is that the Catalyst has the control and is the one dictating the "terms".

From a role-playing point of view, we have absolutely no reason to trust this thing. It's easy to keep in mind that the Reapers have been after me (Shepard) ever since I killed one, so right off the bat I'm going to assume this is some kind of trap. I'm going to assume that I'm in a section where some machine can't physically get to me, so this thing is trying to indoctrinate me or talk me into activating some device that's going to absorb me so they can study me. Because, well, that's what they've been trying to do to me ever since they found out I'm a badass. I've witnessed time after time these machines manipulating and lying to sapient life forms so they can in the end process us and/or destroy us. So, I'm sitting there, about to possibly die or maybe get rescued, the Starbrat/Reaper see's me, wants to process my living essence, so he elevators me up to talk me into pushing a disguised button that zaps me.

Now, I'm Shepard. Time after time I've plunged myself into no-win scenarios. Am I stupid? No. I'm hopeful. I believe in going down fighting. I believe I may be able to pull off a miracle. So, like I said in ME1 and ME2, I'm going to find some way to beat the Reapers. I'm not going to give in to the Reaper mind trick that is Starbrat. I'm gonna radio in some airstrikes on my location. Maybe I'm at a weak spot, 'cause no machine or Reaper-creature is rending my flesh or pushing me into some tube to be liquified. This thing may be some Reaper brain we haven't encountered. 

Again, from a role-playing perspective, I haven't heard one plausible reason to believe Starbrat. To trust Starbrat. To hang the whole fate of the galaxy on what Starbrat has to say. The whole ending is contrived and video-gamey. 

[Bob Garbage]

I love how the four choices for the ending has apparently split up ME players into "teams".

[Redbelle]

Let's not point the finger at thing's that are video-gamey and label all such things bad. They just need to be used at the correct time in the correct place to have the maximum positive impact.

Mass Effect has the extra hard job of knowing when to put in the narative and when to put in the boss fight. LotSB dealt with this issue fantastically well. The shadow broker was well foreshadowed, the reasons for pursuing him laid out well before we reached his ship. And when we find the SB and discover he could break us by flexing his pinky we were treated to a good workout of the combat system mechanics to take him down. It was, in essence, solidly developed with inspired set piece's added on top.

The dialogue wheel however, while a good innovation, is not a game ending device. It's just not video-gamey enough to carry the finale through to a satisfying conclusion.

[Memnon]

I pick refuse to tell the developers that I reject their half-arsed, crappy ending. It's a completely out-of-immersion, metagame decision, which makes the failure of the endings even worse to me. The endings destroy the ME universe for me, so I don't care if I destroy it by refusal ... not like I'm playing anything in this series again

[Kel Riever]

Stornskar wrote...

I pick refuse to tell the developers that I reject their half-arsed, crappy ending. It's a completely out-of-immersion, metagame decision, which makes the failure of the endings even worse to me. The endings destroy the ME universe for me, so I don't care if I destroy it by refusal ... not like I'm playing anything in this series again

Yes, you are basically proving what I had expressed before.  My refuse is to shut off the computer after, 'The best seats in the house.'  Would pay for that DLC by the way...the one that cuts from that line to the credits.

[fainmaca]

I see it as less of a refusal to accept the sacrifice of synthetic life and more as a refusal to work with the enemy. The other three options are presented by the Bad Guys. I wouldn't trust the Catalyst as far as I could throw him, and he expects me to accept his badly-worded explanation for why continual genocide was necessary until I fluked my way into his bedroom, then accept one of the choices he gives me? No deal.

[mauro2222]

Kel Riever wrote...

But again, my original suggestion makes a lot more damn sense. Someone wasn't thinking when they ordered the ending. And it shows.

Exactly, this debate is pointless, arguing with logic over something senseless is... pointless.

[Redbelle]

mauro2222 wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

But again, my original suggestion makes a lot more damn sense. Someone wasn't thinking when they ordered the ending. And it shows.

Exactly, this debate is pointless, arguing with logic over something senseless is... pointless.

The Catalyst made me do it