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[StElmo]

Imitation and originality are frequently miscalculated in video games. We frequently see scenes in games where a cliche appears, not because it is natural, but because the writer clearly thought it was necessary.

We saw this [DA2 SPOILERS] with Meredith in DA2, when she was corrupted by the artifact, instead of simply going mad from the stress and the ideological corner she had backed herself into.

DA2 is not a huge offender though, ignoring that part, other games have made more grevious decisions to imitate a cliche, rather then let the characters naturally come to a conclusion in a sequence, an act or a climax.

I really hope that in DA3, if there is any coincidences, they appear early (magic interfering, "acts of god" and other non-character controlled events) and that everything from the second half onwards is DRIVEN by character choices (be it the PC or NPC's).

True storytelling comes from characters making (in their mind) reasoned choices that lead into eachother, rather than waiting for "big things to happen" before the story can move on.

If a dragon attacks anywhere past the 50% mark I will be dissapoint BW.

Modifié par StElmo, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[David7204]

Reoccuring storytelling elements reoccur for a reason.

Modifié par David7204, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:43 .

[StElmo]

David7204 wrote...

Reoccuring storytelling elements reoccur for a reason.

Tropes are natural commonalities that appear through a script that fits a specific genre, they are not overused or used because of the writers belief it is a "necessity".

Tropes used because they are "tropes" are not, they are cliches and that is from immitation, not a well crafted story.

Edit: you changed your post, but my point stands.

Modifié par StElmo, 10 décembre 2012 - 01:45 .

[Herr Uhl]

StElmo wrote...

Imitation and originality are frequently miscalculated in video games. We frequently see scenes in games where a cliche appears, not because it is natural, but because the writer clearly thought it was necessary.

We saw this [DA2 SPOILERS] with Meredith in DA2, when she was corrupted by the artifact, instead of simply going mad from the stress and the ideological corner she had backed herself into.

How would it be less of a cliche if it wasn't the artifact? What game was that imitating?

[StElmo]

Herr Uhl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Imitation and originality are frequently miscalculated in video games. We frequently see scenes in games where a cliche appears, not because it is natural, but because the writer clearly thought it was necessary.

We saw this [DA2 SPOILERS] with Meredith in DA2, when she was corrupted by the artifact, instead of simply going mad from the stress and the ideological corner she had backed herself into.

How would it be less of a cliche if it wasn't the artifact? What game was that imitating?

Bad guy corrupted by a magical power? Please. So cliche.

Her character already gave her enough logical incentive to go insane, after more and more pressure she mounted on the mages was reflected back on her. Reinforcing her beliefs.

True character is revealed when making choices under pressure. If meredith went crazy at that moment, we would see that she was a true villain, we didn't need some magical curse to make her an adversary.

Magical curse, is almost always a cliche anyway, unless it is established very early, like LOTR and is a central world rule that does not suddenly appear. We didn't even know meredith had that artifact.

Silly cliche. Most of DA2 avoids this though, and I love most of the writing in DA2. I only pick on it because I love it - most of the game is actually very good cause and effect writing. Even if the PC doesn't have much effect himself.

Modifié par StElmo, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

StElmo wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Imitation and originality are frequently miscalculated in video games. We frequently see scenes in games where a cliche appears, not because it is natural, but because the writer clearly thought it was necessary.

We saw this [DA2 SPOILERS] with Meredith in DA2, when she was corrupted by the artifact, instead of simply going mad from the stress and the ideological corner she had backed herself into.

How would it be less of a cliche if it wasn't the artifact? What game was that imitating?

Bad guy corrupted by a magical power? Please.

Her character already gave her enough logical incentive to go insane, after more and more pressure she mounted on the mages was reflected back on her. Reinforcing her beliefs.

True character is revealed when making choices under pressure. If meredith went crazy at that moment, we would see that she was a true villain, we didn't need some magical curse to make her an adversary.

Magical curse, is almost always a cliche anyway, unless it is established very early, like LOTR and is a central world rule that does not suddenly appear. We didn't even know meredith had that artifact.

Silly cliche. Most of DA2 avoids this though, and I love most of the writing in DA2. I only pick on it because I love it.

DAO had a character go insane due to stress and painting themselves into an ideological corner.

He was called Loghain.

[StElmo]

Herr Uhl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Imitation and originality are frequently miscalculated in video games. We frequently see scenes in games where a cliche appears, not because it is natural, but because the writer clearly thought it was necessary.

We saw this [DA2 SPOILERS] with Meredith in DA2, when she was corrupted by the artifact, instead of simply going mad from the stress and the ideological corner she had backed herself into.

How would it be less of a cliche if it wasn't the artifact? What game was that imitating?

Bad guy corrupted by a magical power? Please.

Her character already gave her enough logical incentive to go insane, after more and more pressure she mounted on the mages was reflected back on her. Reinforcing her beliefs.

True character is revealed when making choices under pressure. If meredith went crazy at that moment, we would see that she was a true villain, we didn't need some magical curse to make her an adversary.

Magical curse, is almost always a cliche anyway, unless it is established very early, like LOTR and is a central world rule that does not suddenly appear. We didn't even know meredith had that artifact.

Silly cliche. Most of DA2 avoids this though, and I love most of the writing in DA2. I only pick on it because I love it.

DAO had a character go insane due to stress and painting themselves into an ideological corner.

He was called Loghain.

Yep, although logain was probably a bit more black and white, as he is painted the enemy for most of the game. Meredith, not so much.

That said, he was one of the better parts of DA:O for sure.

[StElmo]

Story is a craft, lots of people in games think they can tell good stories just by imitating good storytellers I don't want this to happen to this game.

[StarcloudSWG]

Meredith did not go mad *because* of the artifact. The moment she broke was the moment that Cullen stood up for Hawke instead of standing aside and following her. It was a psychological break, not an 'artifact corruption' break.

[DarkSpiral]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DAO had a character go insane due to stress and painting themselves into an ideological corner.

He was called Loghain.

I don't see any evidence that Loghain lost his sanity.  Made a very bad choice to due willfull blindness (over Orlais, over how much of a threat the Blight was), absolutely.  But insanity would mean he wasn't actually responsible for his actions, and that's not supported by the way the man behaves during or after the Landsmeet.

[DarkSpiral]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Meredith did not go mad *because* of the artifact. The moment she broke was the moment that Cullen stood up for Hawke instead of standing aside and following her. It was a psychological break, not an 'artifact corruption' break.

I tend to agree with this.  Which really only enforces StElmo's point; the artifact was basically extraneous.  We'd been hearing rumors abotu how much worse Meredith has been getting throughout Act 2 and 3 (especially Act 3).  You could have removed the artifact from the end scenario completely and nothing would have changed.

[StarcloudSWG]

Quite a bit would have changed, actually. Meredith would have gone down faster, and it wouldn't have been as clear that she was, on her own, as much a threat to the city as the Circle was. Which means Cullen might not have been so quick to side with Hawke afterwards, or step back from Hawke if Hawke were a mage who chose to ally with the Circle.

[DarkSpiral]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Quite a bit would have changed, actually. Meredith would have gone down faster

I can think of several scenarios where that wouldn't be true.  Easiest among them being that some of the Templars DO side withher when she snaps, and you are fighting all of them, not just Super Meredith.

and it wouldn't have been as clear that she was, on her own, as much a threat to the city as the Circle was. Which means Cullen might not have been so quick to side with Hawke afterwards, or step back from Hawke if Hawke were a mage who chose to ally with the Circle.

Stepping back from mage-Hawke I'll give you.  THAT one was a bit incongruous to me anyway, when you sided with the Mages.  But the moment she cracks (and you can see it on her face, clear as day) then she has to be removed.  She just accused the entirety the Kirwall Templar order of being corrupted by blood magic.  I suppse you do make a point though.  The artifact unified those sceanrios.  I just didn't LIKE the fact they were unified.

[StElmo]

DarkSpiral wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Meredith did not go mad *because* of the artifact. The moment she broke was the moment that Cullen stood up for Hawke instead of standing aside and following her. It was a psychological break, not an 'artifact corruption' break.

I tend to agree with this.  Which really only enforces StElmo's point; the artifact was basically extraneous.  We'd been hearing rumors abotu how much worse Meredith has been getting throughout Act 2 and 3 (especially Act 3).  You could have removed the artifact from the end scenario completely and nothing would have changed.

Fair point.

[daaaav]

Dragon Age II had a huge problem with this...

Meredith - As mentioned

Anders - I don't even know what the hell Bioware...

Orsino - Same as Anders

Three characters who were not left to evolve "organically" but were shoe horned to fill plot device requirements. It is fine for characters to be thrown curve balls but the narrative should focus on how the characters react to changing circumstances. Not how the circumstances are affected by schizophrenic characters...

[TCBC_Freak]

DarkSpiral wrote...

StarcloudSWG wrote...

Meredith did not go mad *because* of the artifact. The moment she broke was the moment that Cullen stood up for Hawke instead of standing aside and following her. It was a psychological break, not an 'artifact corruption' break.

I tend to agree with this. Which really only enforces StElmo's point; the artifact was basically extraneous. We'd been hearing rumors about how much worse Meredith has been getting throughout Act 2 and 3 (especially Act 3). You could have removed the artifact from the end scenario completely and nothing would have changed.

She gets worse in Acts 2 and 3 because she gets the sword between Acts 1 and 2. The sword is the reason she starts to lose it and go crazy. The small bit Bertrand had of the red lyrium drove him mad really fast, and he was a dwarf. Merredith had much more of it for longer and it could be argued that the only reason she was a functioning psychotic at all was because she was a Templar and addicted to Lyrium and thus it didn't effect her as fast; her final straw was when her men "betray" her and Cullen doesn't support her but she was breaking before that.

[Solmanian]

May I point the OP at TVtropes.com? Aside from swallowing your every waking moment, that site will also make the argument that 99% of things you see in movies and TV, have been done before.

[daaaav]

Mis post

Modifié par daaaav, 10 décembre 2012 - 05:30 .

[Maria Caliban]

Saying a story should arise naturally is like saying a building or a piece of clothing should arise naturally.

Yes, it might look that way from the outside, but the actual creation is never natural.

[Savber100]

Solmanian wrote...

May I point the OP at TVtropes.com? Aside from swallowing your every waking moment, that site will also make the argument that 99% of things you see in movies and TV, have been done before.

"Nothing is new under the sun" 

Therefore, what makes a game great is through a refinement of an ideal from the past. 

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

Dragon Age II had a huge problem with this...

Meredith - As mentioned

Anders - I don't even know what the hell Bioware...

Orsino - Same as Anders

Three characters who were not left to evolve "organically" but were shoe horned to fill plot device requirements. It is fine for characters to be thrown curve balls but the narrative should focus on how the characters react to changing circumstances. Not how the circumstances are affected by schizophrenic characters...

Characters should be passive and never take initiative ever?

[Plaintiff]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying a story should arise naturally is like saying a building or a piece of clothing should arise naturally.

Yes, it might look that way from the outside, but the actual creation is never natural.

I'm glad someone gets it.

I'm constantly running into people who think you just churn out a story and turn into a book or a game or whatever, and as a Creative Writing major it drives me insane.

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Dragon Age II had a huge problem with this...

Meredith - As mentioned

Anders - I don't even know what the hell Bioware...

Orsino - Same as Anders

Three characters who were not left to evolve "organically" but were shoe horned to fill plot device requirements. It is fine for characters to be thrown curve balls but the narrative should focus on how the characters react to changing circumstances. Not how the circumstances are affected by schizophrenic characters...

Characters should be passive and never take initiative ever?

These characters undertook actions that can only be explained by possesion, or mental illness... Not a satisfying (or surprising) culmination of THESE characters personal developement and circumstance in my opinion. Sure, if you actively encouraged Anders to be more militant about his attitude towards the chantry througout the game, then his actions sort of make sense. If you didn't, then screw it because he does it anyway for....reasons....

Same with Orsino.

Meredith was different. The components of her eventual fall were all there. The damn gem stone only served to obscure her character development needlessly. 

[daaaav]

Plaintiff wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying a story should arise naturally is like saying a building or a piece of clothing should arise naturally.

Yes, it might look that way from the outside, but the actual creation is never natural.

I'm glad someone gets it.

I'm constantly running into people who think you just churn out a story and turn into a book or a game or whatever, and as a Creative Writing major it drives me insane.

There must be something that ties the end of a story to it's beginning. Otherwise it's just a bunch of discrete sentences - the mere sum of it's parts. 

[brushyourteeth]

StElmo wrote...

DA2 is not a huge offender though... other games have made more grevious decisions

Um,   /thread?  


(I really don't know why this is a discussion if there's nothing to discuss)