51 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexJK]

StElmo wrote...

Her character already gave her enough logical incentive to go insane, after more and more pressure she mounted on the mages was reflected back on her. Reinforcing her beliefs.

True character is revealed when making choices under pressure. If meredith went crazy at that moment, we would see that she was a true villain, we didn't need some magical curse to make her an adversary.

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. People don't "go insane" when their beliefs are reinforced. And how exactly is Meredith any more or less of a "true" villian if she "went crazy at that moment"? It's pretty lazy storytelling to say that someone did something just because they "went crazy". *None* of the characters in DA2, including Meredith, are acting irrationally (from their own perspectives, at least).

Magical curse, is almost always a cliche anyway, unless it is established very early, like LOTR and is a central world rule that does not suddenly appear. We didn't even know meredith had that artifact.

Meredith's ownership of the artifact is hinted earlier in the story, as is her change in character. And it's not a "magical curse" - Meredith's corruption by the lyrium is, depending on your perspective, either an illustration of how dangerous magic and mages really are, or how easily the innocent can fall.

Herr Uhl wrote...

DAO had a character go insane due to stress and painting themselves into an ideological corner.
He was called Loghain.

Loghain was never "insane", not even close. His motivation actually makes a lot of sense.

Modifié par AlexJK, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[AlexJK]

daaaav wrote...

These characters [Meredith, Anders, Orsino] undertook actions that can only be explained by possesion, or mental illness...

Um, wrong?

Anders/Justice believes that what he does will escalate the situation to a point of resolution. He's right, though the solution may or may not be what he had in mind. Most people would consider the price of his actions too high, but you can't label that as insanity without taking into account the context of his character (eg. Karl).

Orsino will fight to defend himself and the other mages, at all costs. His adoption of blood magic doesn't make a lot of sense, story-wise (literally, he's proving Meredith's argument for her), but he feels he has nowhere else to turn.

Meredith doesn't do anything insane the whole game; although it's clear that the idol is affecting her and possibly clouding her judgment, it doesn't change her character so dramatically that her sanity should be questioned.

(EDIT: As far as insanity goes, Quentin is criminally insane.)

Modifié par AlexJK, 10 décembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[StElmo]

[quote]AlexJK wrote...

[quote]StElmo wrote...

Her character already gave her enough logical incentive to go insane, after more and more pressure she mounted on the mages was reflected back on her. Reinforcing her beliefs.

True character is revealed when making choices under pressure. If meredith went crazy at that moment, we would see that she was a true villain, we didn't need some magical curse to make her an adversary.[/quote]
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. People don't "go insane" when their beliefs are reinforced. And how exactly is Meredith any more or less of a "true" villian if she "went crazy at that moment"? It's pretty lazy storytelling to say that someone did something just because they "went crazy". *None* of the characters in DA2, including Meredith, are acting irrationally (from their own perspectives, at least).

[quote]Magical curse, is almost always a cliche anyway, unless it is established very early, like LOTR and is a central world rule that does not suddenly appear. We didn't even know meredith had that artifact.[/quote]
Meredith's ownership of the artifact is hinted earlier in the story, as is her change in character. And it's not a "magical curse" - Meredith's corruption by the lyrium is, depending on your perspective, either an illustration of how dangerous magic and mages really are, or how easily the innocent can fall.

Using magic to force a character choice so arbitrarily is weak.

And no I mean insane in terms of violent, not necessarily bonkers.

She was so adamant in her beliefs she would be willing to sacrifice for her cause, much better then "oh the magic trinket has made me a boss battle crazy lady!"

[StElmo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying a story should arise naturally is like saying a building or a piece of clothing should arise naturally.

Yes, it might look that way from the outside, but the actual creation is never natural.

It is natural. As character goals and choices under pressure should direct the plot. If it is out of character, then it should not happen.

Remember characterization =/= character.

[upsettingshorts]

ITT: Some people confuse their expectations of future development for the only logical future development of a character, are mad that these expectations were not met, accuse BioWare of not developing characters properly.

[DarkSpiral]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You're not Greek, are you? Or do you read classics? At all? Doesn't appear so.

Just because YOU feel these things are not good storytelling does not make it so.

Greek?  classics?  Are you talking about Deus Ex Machina or something?  If not (and as that isn't what the idol was, I hope you aren't), then what are you refering to?

I stand by the statement that you could remove the idol from the game after the end of Act 1, and stil have events play out exatly the same.  Thus, the idol is extraneous.

[DarkSpiral]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ITT: Some people confuse their expectations of future development for the only logical future development of a character, are mad that these expectations were not met, accuse BioWare of not developing characters properly.

The end result of Meredith's character development was never the issue.

[daaaav]

AlexJK wrote...

daaaav wrote...

These characters [Meredith, Anders, Orsino] undertook actions that can only be explained by possesion, or mental illness...

Um, wrong?

Anders/Justice believes that what he does will escalate the situation to a point of resolution. He's right, though the solution may or may not be what he had in mind. Most people would consider the price of his actions too high, but you can't label that as insanity without taking into account the context of his character (eg. Karl).

Orsino will fight to defend himself and the other mages, at all costs. His adoption of blood magic doesn't make a lot of sense, story-wise (literally, he's proving Meredith's argument for her), but he feels he has nowhere else to turn.

Meredith doesn't do anything insane the whole game; although it's clear that the idol is affecting her and possibly clouding her judgment, it doesn't change her character so dramatically that her sanity should be questioned.

(EDIT: As far as insanity goes, Quentin is criminally insane.)

I admitted that Ander's actions make a certain sense if his character developes in a particular way but they ignore the other possible forks in his characterisation.

Orsino? No, his adoption of blood magic does not make a lot of sense... Especially since Hawke has spent a good portion of the game methodically and emphatically smacking down every single blood mage (except Merril) he has encountered. Orsino can damn well turn to Hawke instead. Once again, if Hawke sided with the Templars, then yes. Orsino's action make sense somewhat.

I said that Meredith was different and didn't mean to lump her in with the other two. The magic curse was unneccessary and trivialised the effects of her ideology regarding her responsibility to "control" the mages.

[Medhia Nox]

I think people use the terms "trope" and "cliche" to simply express their dislike for an aspect of a story.

@DarkSpiral: I would argue the extraneous is far more "real" than a story that only contains pertinent elements to the story. Sure - as a craft element it may be less interesting - but there's many a thing in my day that is "extraneous" and I would not believe anyone who claimed otherwise for themselves.

That being said - I largely hate what magic has become (in the forms of spells, monsters, beings or items) in fantasy storytelling. A messy catchall that never gets any sort of in depth explanation (often just a set of oft broken rules).

Storytelling in a video game cannot be the same as storytelling in a book - and I believe that it is the myopic view of the consumer that constrains it. A game is a visual medium - so, if they're going to imitate life - the visual cues need to be - on some level - extraneous.

In a book - a writer may write about this or that - but he'll never explain everything the viewpoint is seeing - that is for the viewers imagination. In a video game - your imagination is often not welcome (and would feel awkward if vast amounts of space were left unfinished for you to "fill in")

The red lyrium wasn't even that relevant to the story - it certainly didn't resonate with me at all. I saw a woman spiraling into to paranoid obsessive compulsive behavior due to past events and her fear that things are getting out of control.

The artifact was simply a fantasy vector of that journey.

Did I also find it largely unnecessary? Yes. But I also think blood magic is a "horrible cliche". Giving a way out of Tranquility - destroying the Circles and "freeing" the mages - having the elves get out of oppression - having the dwarves break their caste system.

All of these - I would find "horrible cliches" - but I'll admit, it's simply because I like what I feel to be unique qualities to the story. I feel they add to Dragon Age and removing them would make it far more generic.

But this is my opinion - not literary genius born of a mastery of my craft.

Some people would love for elves to be free - or mages to be free - or tranquility or the harrowing to be tossed. These boards are full of people that would disagree with my desire for them to stay.

[In Exile]

daaaav wrote...
Orsino? No, his adoption of blood magic does not make a lot of sense... Especially since Hawke has spent a good portion of the game methodically and emphatically smacking down every single blood mage (except Merril) he has encountered. Orsino can damn well turn to Hawke instead. Once again, if Hawke sided with the Templars, then yes. Orsino's action make sense somewhat.

I always though it made sense. Orisono is a weak, sniveling and scheming person. He can't stand up to the templras, and isn't fit to lead the mages. He breaks at some point.

I said that Meredith was different and didn't mean to lump her in with the other two. The magic curse was unneccessary and trivialised the effects of her ideology regarding her responsibility to "control" the mages.

I think the goal was to make it a tragedy - she went off the deep end because of a fluke thing Hawke discovered, and that led to such much death and devestation. I think Bioware was trying to go for no one is the bad guy by trying to absolve of responsibility.

[DarkSpiral]

EntropicAngel wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Greek?  classics?  Are you talking about Deus Ex Machina or something?  If not (and as that isn't what the idol was, I hope you aren't), then what are you refering to?

I stand by the statement that you could remove the idol from the game after the end of Act 1, and stil have events play out exatly the same.  Thus, the idol is extraneous.

I'm not saying the idol was a Deus Ex Machina. I don't believe it was.

I'm saying that saying Deus Ex Machinas are "bad storytelling" is a flawed position.

Um...okay.  Well, I agree with you then.  They're easy to abuse, but certainly not automatically bad storytelling.

I suppose StElmo did go on to mention acts of god.  I was still focused on that idol.

[DarkSpiral]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I think people use the terms "trope" and "cliche" to simply express their dislike for an aspect of a story.

@DarkSpiral: I would argue the extraneous is far more "real" than a story that only contains pertinent elements to the story. Sure - as a craft element it may be less interesting - but there's many a thing in my day that is "extraneous" and I would not believe anyone who claimed otherwise for themselves.

That being said - I largely hate what magic has become (in the forms of spells, monsters, beings or items) in fantasy storytelling. A messy catchall that never gets any sort of in depth explanation (often just a set of oft broken rules).

Storytelling in a video game cannot be the same as storytelling in a book - and I believe that it is the myopic view of the consumer that constrains it. A game is a visual medium - so, if they're going to imitate life - the visual cues need to be - on some level - extraneous.

In a book - a writer may write about this or that - but he'll never explain everything the viewpoint is seeing - that is for the viewers imagination. In a video game - your imagination is often not welcome (and would feel awkward if vast amounts of space were left unfinished for you to "fill in")

The red lyrium wasn't even that relevant to the story - it certainly didn't resonate with me at all. I saw a woman spiraling into to paranoid obsessive compulsive behavior due to past events and her fear that things are getting out of control.

The artifact was simply a fantasy vector of that journey.

Did I also find it largely unnecessary? Yes. But I also think blood magic is a "horrible cliche". Giving a way out of Tranquility - destroying the Circles and "freeing" the mages - having the elves get out of oppression - having the dwarves break their caste system.

All of these - I would find "horrible cliches" - but I'll admit, it's simply because I like what I feel to be unique qualities to the story. I feel they add to Dragon Age and removing them would make it far more generic.

But this is my opinion - not literary genius born of a mastery of my craft.

Some people would love for elves to be free - or mages to be free - or tranquility or the harrowing to be tossed. These boards are full of people that would disagree with my desire for them to stay.

I'm not one of them.  I agree completely that these things add character to the series.  Separate it from every other "high fantasy" setting out there.  Forgotten Realms, for example.

That having been said, I'm confused over your use of extraneous in regard to the visual cues in a video game.  As you said, its a visual medium.  How can the visual cues then be extraneous?

[Heimdall]

In Exile wrote...

daaaav wrote...
Orsino? No, his adoption of blood magic does not make a lot of sense... Especially since Hawke has spent a good portion of the game methodically and emphatically smacking down every single blood mage (except Merril) he has encountered. Orsino can damn well turn to Hawke instead. Once again, if Hawke sided with the Templars, then yes. Orsino's action make sense somewhat.

I always though it made sense. Orisono is a weak, sniveling and scheming person. He can't stand up to the templras, and isn't fit to lead the mages. He breaks at some point.

He actually does stand up to the Templars, to a point.  He was preaching against them in the square at the beginning of Act 3.  At the end the entire start of the confrontation between him and Meredith was because he refused to bow to Meredith's demanded search of the gallows.  He doesn't seem to have any desire to end the Circle system as a whole though.

[DarkSpiral]

In Exile wrote...

daaaav wrote...
Orsino? No, his adoption of blood magic does not make a lot of sense... Especially since Hawke has spent a good portion of the game methodically and emphatically smacking down every single blood mage (except Merril) he has encountered. Orsino can damn well turn to Hawke instead. Once again, if Hawke sided with the Templars, then yes. Orsino's action make sense somewhat.

I always though it made sense. Orisono is a weak, sniveling and scheming person. He can't stand up to the templras, and isn't fit to lead the mages. He breaks at some point.

I agree with this to a large degree.  He isn't an effective leader.  While perhaps noone could have been a strong leader with Meredith as Knight-Commander, his willingness to turn a blind eye to the blood magic that is rife in Kirkwall, specificaly his knowledge of Quentin being in Kirkwall, is contributing to the problem.

However, it made a great deal less sense when I sided with the mages.  I think two different endgame bosses would have been a more staisfying experience, dependent on which side you chose in the final Act.  People's thoughts on that?

I think the goal was to make it a tragedy - she went off the deep end because of a fluke thing Hawke discovered, and that led to such much death and devestation. I think Bioware was trying to go for no one is the bad guy by trying to absolve of responsibility.

Hm.  You might be right.  I hadn't quite thought of it in that fashion.  But, even if that were the case, the implementation wasn't great.  She seems stable when you speak to her during the course of the Act.  She has extremem views, but she's lucid and behaves like someone that has conviction.  It was justa big disconnect for me.

[Heimdall]

DarkSpiral wrote...

I agree with this to a large degree.  He isn't an effective leader.  While perhaps noone could have been a strong leader with Meredith as Knight-Commander, his willingness to turn a blind eye to the blood magic that is rife in Kirkwall, specificaly his knowledge of Quentin being in Kirkwall, is contributing to the problem.

However, it made a great deal less sense when I sided with the mages.  I think two different endgame bosses would have been a more staisfying experience, dependent on which side you chose in the final Act.  People's thoughts on that?

Definitely agree.  Though can't he be the one to send you after the blood mages in Act 3?

Orsino may have been ineffective but he never really seemed unstable.  Siding with the mages his sudden freak out was jarring to say the least.  He'd lost mages under him before and we had just won the fight.  Confronting him after killing them all for the Templars made a bit more sense.

[Atakuma]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ITT: Some people confuse their expectations of future development for the only logical future development of a character, are mad that these expectations were not met, accuse BioWare of not developing characters properly.

I don't think Bioware developed Orsino or Meredith properly, not because of expectations, but because the bulk of their stories were crammed into the final (and shortest) act.

Modifié par Atakuma, 10 décembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[DarkSpiral]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Definitely agree.  Though can't he be the one to send you after the blood mages in Act 3?

I'd have to play the scenario again, but I don't think there were blood mages until Grace herself.  Enchanters applenty, though.  Naturally, I could be misremembering.

[Heimdall]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Definitely agree.  Though can't he be the one to send you after the blood mages in Act 3?

I'd have to play the scenario again, but I don't think there were blood mages until Grace herself.  Enchanters applenty, though.  Naturally, I could be misremembering.

I'm pretty sure Orsino's justification for sending Hawke had to do with investigating potential blood mages without giving Meredith more ammunition.  Though I too would have to replay that to be sure.

[fchopin]

Please stop trying to make sense for act 3 as there is no sense, if there was an option for Hawke to get out of Kirkwall he would have left Meredith and Orsino to have a party on their own.

[DarkSpiral]

Lord Aesir wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Definitely agree.  Though can't he be the one to send you after the blood mages in Act 3?

I'd have to play the scenario again, but I don't think there were blood mages until Grace herself.  Enchanters applenty, though.  Naturally, I could be misremembering.

I'm pretty sure Orsino's justification for sending Hawke had to do with investigating potential blood mages without giving Meredith more ammunition.  Though I too would have to replay that to be sure.

Ah, I misunderstood you.  Yes, that is what he does, if you sided with him at the beginning of the Act.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

These characters undertook actions that can only be explained by possesion, or mental illness... Not a satisfying (or surprising) culmination of THESE characters personal developement and circumstance in my opinion. Sure, if you actively encouraged Anders to be more militant about his attitude towards the chantry througout the game, then his actions sort of make sense. If you didn't, then screw it because he does it anyway for....reasons....

Same with Orsino.

Meredith was different. The components of her eventual fall were all there. The damn gem stone only served to obscure her character development needlessly. 

I don't think Orsino was possessed or mentally ill, and I find his actions as well as Anders' to be perfectly understandable, given the circumstances.

I do not believe that the player should be able to sway these characters from their paths, anymore than the Warden should've been able to convince the Archdemon to go home peacefully.

[Plaintiff]

daaaav wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Saying a story should arise naturally is like saying a building or a piece of clothing should arise naturally.

Yes, it might look that way from the outside, but the actual creation is never natural.

I'm glad someone gets it.

I'm constantly running into people who think you just churn out a story and turn into a book or a game or whatever, and as a Creative Writing major it drives me insane.

There must be something that ties the end of a story to it's beginning. Otherwise it's just a bunch of discrete sentences - the mere sum of it's parts. 

Yes, there must, and DA2 had that. What does this have to do with anything I just said?

[StElmo]

DarkSpiral wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

You're not Greek, are you? Or do you read classics? At all? Doesn't appear so.

Just because YOU feel these things are not good storytelling does not make it so.

Greek?  classics?  Are you talking about Deus Ex Machina or something?  If not (and as that isn't what the idol was, I hope you aren't), then what are you refering to?

I stand by the statement that you could remove the idol from the game after the end of Act 1, and stil have events play out exatly the same.  Thus, the idol is extraneous.

This.

He is using the "I can talk about greek drama so I must be smarter than you" argument fallacy.