327 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

not to mention the moment where Triss pretty much takes advantage of a wounded Geralt in some male fantasy wish fulfillment at the start of Chapter 3.

That is the only scene that you can not skip in the game and it's bad because you can not play Geralt with the person that you like.

Modifié par fchopin, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[slimgrin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree with Allan. I found the cards and the whole sex mechanic is ridiculous, annoying and demeaning. That and 99% of female characters in TW1 were simply bad and uninteresting (being there msotly to get screwed), with the possible exception of Toruviel and Shani. Triss was bad imo and yes that sex scene in Act 3 was just creepy. Adda was ridiculous and I'm glad she wasn't in TW2.

That's TW1's major flaw. Its portrayal of women was very bad, immature and offensive. Thankfully TW2 went beyond that by miles.

Toruviel, Carmen, White Rayla, Triss, Shani, Vaska; all are nuanced characters if you consider their backgrounds. Being able to sleep with them doesn't ruin that. I will say TW2's women are far more compelling though. At any rate, the game doesn't force you to play as a cad. It's optional. 

( well, you can't sleep with Vaska)

Modifié par slimgrin, 14 décembre 2012 - 05:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

slimgrin wrote...
Ironically, while TW2 moved past this by drastically cutting the available shagging, it's also much more explicit. In place of cards, you get actual sex scenes which can be viewed as the same type of 'reward'.

I can understand people not wanting to see naked scenes. But the context in TW2 is drastically different. There are no sex scenes for their own sake truly, at least as a collectible, and with actual build up and not just "hey we're both angry, let's have angry sex". The women Geralt can shag are established characters with build up that I found adequate, or prostitutes. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

slimgrin wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree with Allan. I found the cards and the whole sex mechanic is ridiculous, annoying and demeaning. That and 99% of female characters in TW1 were simply bad and uninteresting (being there msotly to get screwed), with the possible exception of Toruviel and Shani. Triss was bad imo and yes that sex scene in Act 3 was just creepy. Adda was ridiculous and I'm glad she wasn't in TW2.

That's TW1's major flaw. Its portrayal of women was very bad, immature and offensive. Thankfully TW2 went beyond that by miles.

Toruviel, Carmen, White Rayla, Triss, Shani, Vaska; all are nuanced characters if you consider their backgrounds. Being able to sleep with them doesn't ruin that. I will say TW2's women are far more compelling though. At any rate, the game doesn't force you to play as a cad. It's optional. 

I did forget Carmen, she was decent. Her VA was horrible though.
White Rayla was meh imo, didn't really interest me. I didn't find Triss interesting either, she annoyed me most of the time and at one point she got all "we can live in a hut, and you can go hunting and I can cook" or something very similar which is facepalm worthy.

[Addai]

Well CDPR basically agreed with the criticism when they said sex would be handled more maturely in TW2. People still fight over whether that's actually the case, but people have lots of hang-ups about depictions of sex in games for some reason- far more than in movies- probably because of the participatory aspect. You're not just watching, you're in bed with them, so to speak. lol

[Allan Schumacher]

Well CDPR basically agreed with the criticism when they said sex would be handled more maturely in TW2. People still fight over whether that's actually the case, but people have lots of hang-ups about depictions of sex in games for some reason- far more than in movies- probably because of the participatory aspect. You're not just watching, you're in bed with them, so to speak.

This is an important distinction I think. I'm the type that tends to look at games as "art" in that I am curious what the content creator's original thoughts were, so I actually have the Enhanced Edition of The Witcher. I also imported Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit), as much to see what the big deal was.

At first I think it was the sex scene with Carla, and I was like "that's it?" But then there was the scene that I noticed on a second playthrough with Lucas' ex-girlfriend. Player control actually existed in a limited capacity during the scene, which came across as being somewhat weird to experience (and not particularly necessary).

While Triss is definitely a more interestingly developed character (compared to many in The Witcher), she does basically come across as a nymphomaniac. While I have no problems with a character enjoying sex, it seems to be a frequent topic for her, to the point where she seems to bring up the innuendo on almost excessive amount. (Though so far I mostly find it grating because she doesn't come across as a trustworthy or likable character at this point).

Similar with Shani, the general vibe I am getting from the game is that there are some interesting concepts, but the execution missed the mark (hmmm this rings a bell >.>). I like the idea of having a grittier world where darker themes exist, and many of the concepts that come across were ones that I considered during NWN module creation days. It's almost eerie because some of it comes across the same almost to a tee.

So I think I find I may be a bit unfair since I associate the way many themes come across with many of the ideas I had 8-10 years ago that I since have reconsidered as not being as well thought out as I originally considered.

The biggest one for me is still Shani. One of the few likeable characters in the game so far (Zoltan, Siegfried, and maybe Dandelion, being the others), who is attractive and a pretty genuinely nice person. While Dandelion is singing there's even some cute moments where Geralt catches Shani looking at him, and she quickly looks away, and it's definitely a sort of "Hehehe, she definitely seems to have a crush on me." So I gave her a red rose (explicitly to be romantic), and there was some interesting conversation, and while I was expecting the scene to lead to sex, they pretty much fast forwarded straight to the sex, which I found really disappointing.


In general though, I more laugh at it. The willingness of women to throw themselves at me has pretty much hit the level of B-movie badness, which I can still find entertaining (I love bad movies).

[Savber100]

Well all video game developers have their growing pains...

[slimgrin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Similar with Shani, the general vibe I am getting from the game is that there are some interesting concepts, but the execution missed the mark (hmmm this rings a bell >.>). I like the idea of having a grittier world where darker themes exist, and many of the concepts that come across were ones that I considered during NWN module creation days. It's almost eerie because some of it comes across the same almost to a tee.

Really. What are you suggesting, that they mind tapped you? 
It's clearly not your type of game and that's cool. I've disagreed with the CDPR guys about stuff too. But this observation borders on, well...maybe I won't go there. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[Addai]

The characters are well developed, though- not sure if that is what you are criticizing so much as the prolific and casual sex. In that TW2 does improve, since not every encounter with a semi-attractive female leads to sex. But perhaps there is some Bioware bias in your comments here, in that the "romance arcs" are not as big a deal. For me that is fine- I can leave a lot to imagination, and the "Bioware style" gets canned in a hurry, too. There will always be some weirdness from the fact that it is all programmed, so you don't get away from the formulaic and the uncanny valleys.

Triss is actually the most natural "romance" for Geralt IMO. They have a long history, and she has feelings for him which is shown right from the beginning in Kaer Morhen. Shani is kind of shoehorned in, I thought. So I probably had a smoother story because I had Geralt commit to Triss and become romantic with her, which also made the transition to TW2 easier (I won't say more so as not to spoil).

Until Yennefer shows up, then all bets are off. 

Modifié par Addai67, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Firky]

It's a funny issue, those cards.

I think the Witcher games have a real quirky tongue in cheek humour, though. (My husband is Bulgarian and I can appreciate some parallels.) Some of the dialogue is completely over the top, but I think, deliberately so.

(Edit: Case in point. Good timing. My husband literally just came up to me and put on an little puppet show with two "angry sponges" talking to each other - he's doing the dishes.)

I never really saw the "misogynistic" bits as out of character with the "gritty" but also fairly silly/satirical world. When (spoiler) in TW2 says, "Must be her time of the month, hur hur" about (spoiler) I was just inclined to roll my eyes, really.

*vague spoilers about TW2 sex scenes to follow*

Mind you, there was a character in the initial dungeon who was threatened with - (spoiler) - and Geralt has no choice but to leave her in a cell - no choice I could see, anyway. They could have just made the guard drop a key, couldn't they?

Maybe the difference is Geralt's choice of reaction. He couldn't say, "Shut up," about the time of he month remark and he couldn't save the woman. (From an RP perspective, I'd have thought he'd save the woman, maybe, but maybe he would just say nothing about "casual sexism" or whatever. Maybe the point is that that is ingrained in his world.)

When it comes to "gaming the sytem" vs roleplaying. Well, for me that's part of the tongue in cheek. In TW2 I went down a certain love path. Then I slept with a whole bunch of prostitutes, at a certain part in that path, just for the irony of it. That was hilarious.

(And the prostitute cutscenes were obviously not as "carefully crafted" as the love scene. Also. I played the love scene in a press preview and, whoa, it was a measure more explicit. I really liked the love scene, I have to say.)

Modifié par Firky, 14 décembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Nerevar-as]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is an important distinction I think. I'm the type that tends to look at games as "art" in that I am curious what the content creator's original thoughts were, so I actually have the Enhanced Edition of The Witcher. I also imported Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit), as much to see what the big deal was.

At first I think it was the sex scene with Carla, and I was like "that's it?" But then there was the scene that I noticed on a second playthrough with Lucas' ex-girlfriend. Player control actually existed in a limited capacity during the scene, which came across as being somewhat weird to experience (and not particularly necessary).

While Triss is definitely a more interestingly developed character (compared to many in The Witcher), she does basically come across as a nymphomaniac. While I have no problems with a character enjoying sex, it seems to be a frequent topic for her, to the point where she seems to bring up the innuendo on almost excessive amount. (Though so far I mostly find it grating because she doesn't come across as a trustworthy or likable character at this point).

Similar with Shani, the general vibe I am getting from the game is that there are some interesting concepts, but the execution missed the mark (hmmm this rings a bell >.>). I like the idea of having a grittier world where darker themes exist, and many of the concepts that come across were ones that I considered during NWN module creation days. It's almost eerie because some of it comes across the same almost to a tee.

So I think I find I may be a bit unfair since I associate the way many themes come across with many of the ideas I had 8-10 years ago that I since have reconsidered as not being as well thought out as I originally considered.

The biggest one for me is still Shani. One of the few likeable characters in the game so far (Zoltan, Siegfried, and maybe Dandelion, being the others), who is attractive and a pretty genuinely nice person. While Dandelion is singing there's even some cute moments where Geralt catches Shani looking at him, and she quickly looks away, and it's definitely a sort of "Hehehe, she definitely seems to have a crush on me." So I gave her a red rose (explicitly to be romantic), and there was some interesting conversation, and while I was expecting the scene to lead to sex, they pretty much fast forwarded straight to the sex, which I found really disappointing.


In general though, I more laugh at it. The willingness of women to throw themselves at me has pretty much hit the level of B-movie badness, which I can still find entertaining (I love bad movies).

Here you are at a disadvantage for not having read the books (I guess). Triss is very in love with Geralt, to the point of betraying her best friend in the game. Not so in love that she´ll put him ahead of the Sorceresses´plans however. Shortly before things go to hell at the end of the saga Yenn is looking forward to telling Geralt what they had done about her and Ciri.

Shani on the other side... in the book she was just a casual one-night stand, on the very day they met (Jaskier´s shock was quite fun). In the game she was merged with another character who was sincerely attracted to him. My favorite of the short tales....

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Sure, not everyone is going to share this perspective, but as the game went on I went from "Card mechanic is neat" to "Card mechanic makes me feel uncomfortable as it leverages my gaming tendencies of progression/collection into making me look at all the female characters in the game as targets to be conquered."

I'm not here to tell others that they should feel the same way as me, but that's the way I feel about it.

Yeah, the card thing is silly. Yet, is it that different than having achievements pop up for "finishing" romances in Mass Effect or Dragon Age just by having sex with a given character?

Allan Schumacher wrote...
While Triss is definitely a more  interestingly developed character (compared to many in The Witcher), she does basically come across as a nymphomaniac. While I have no problems with a character enjoying sex, it seems to be a frequent topic for her, to the point where she seems to bring up the innuendo on almost  excessive amount.

So you're saying Triss is Isabela in DA2?

Allan Schumacher wrote...
(Though so far I mostly find it grating because she doesn't come across as a trustworthy or likable character at this point).

That untrustworthiness is why I like most of the characters in the Witcher universe. You're never entirely sure if somebody is actually just using you for some ulterior motive, Triss included. It makes characters feel like they have desires and plans outside of the player character; that maybe Geralt isn't the be all, end all of the world.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
In general though, I more laugh at it. The  willingness of women to throw themselves at me has pretty much hit the level of B-movie badness, which I can still find entertaining (I love  bad movies).

It always felt like a James Bond movie to me, in that regard. Just sort of silly after a while.

Modifié par Brockololly, 14 décembre 2012 - 11:46 .

[Allan Schumacher]

slimgrin wrote...
Really. What are you suggesting, that they mind tapped you? 
It's clearly not your type of game and that's cool. I've disagreed with the CDPR guys about stuff too. But this observation borders on, well...maybe I won't go there. 

The only suggestion I am making is that it matches the early assumptions about what I thought would be an interesting and edgy story environment, that ultimately ended up not actually delivering on the themes in the way that I had imagined that it would during conception.

In that, I feel I can understand how CDProjekt came to have this content in place.  As in, with iteration, they can improve on the execution.  People in this thread have said they did in TW2 (I'll find out once I am done TW1).


It should be noted that this game has a reputation of being either:

Some type of immature, misogynistic, or inappropriate
or
Some type of realistic, dark, gritty, and mature.

depending on who you ask (I find opinion on the game is polarizing).  So there is some inherent bias into how I anticipate upcoming content.

I also disagree that it's "not my type of game."  Based on the concepts, and my own history for what I personally thought would be interesting themes to cover in an RPG, I'd say it's very much my type of game.

Here you are at a disadvantage for not having read the books (I guess).
Triss is very in love with Geralt, to the point of betraying her best
friend in the game. Not so in love that she´ll put him ahead of the
Sorceresses´plans however. Shortly before things go to hell at the end
of the saga Yenn is looking forward to telling Geralt what they had done
about her and Ciri.

I agree it's a risk for moving to a different medium.  Should it be assumed that the players all know about Triss' history?  Unfortunately, when I am presented with an amnesia state, I am sort of given the impression that my character's history is no longer relevant to how I am playing the character (e.g. Planescape: Torment), but I am learning that this isn't the case.

Yeah, the card thing is silly. Yet, is it that different than having
achievements pop up for "finishing" romances in Mass Effect or Dragon
Age just by having sex with a given character?

Nope, and I don't like that either.  The only place it "worked" for me was Alpha Protocol, since the game is in part a shot at the "classic spy tales" where the James Bond style archetype exists.

Then, I'm also a proponent that sex shouldn't be seen as the "victory condition" of the relationship (something BioWare is certainly culpable of doing), while also being a supporter of the idea that if sex is in the game, it doesn't need to be explicitly shown either.

So if your end goal was to just try to point out "Yeah but your company does it too!" I guess it's mission accomplished.  Unfortunately, you told me nothing that I'm not already aware of, and when I give feedback to the guys in the office it's still consistent with the type of feedback I have given regarding The Witcher.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Brockololly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
While Triss is definitely a more  interestingly developed character (compared to many in The Witcher), she does basically come across as a nymphomaniac. While I have no problems with a character enjoying sex, it seems to be a frequent topic for her, to the point where she seems to bring up the innuendo on almost  excessive amount.

So you're saying Triss is Isabela in DA2?

Exactly what went through my mind when reading that. Though i don't remember Triss being nearly as excessive as Isabella in the innuendo department.

[casadechrisso]

Oh it's funny how many memories this topic brings back, just reading it for the first time. I played The Witcher early after release and only started another playthrough a few weeks ago to get a savegame for Witcher 2... haven't come far in yet and my only sexual encounters were Triss and that Barmaid in Act 1.

What I clearly remember was how many discussions I had about this part of the game back then and the polarized opinions. On one hand it saddened me that people who I know would love the game weren't touching it due to what they heard about the cards etc, but on the other hand I had many issues with that part myself, most of it already mentioned above. And it was only the bad execution and -intentional or not- sexistic message behind it.

I have absolutely no problem with adult content, full nudity and sex in the media (not pornography), I don't differentiate between a love act in a book, a movie or a game. But the question is how it's told, and that's where the Witcher failed. If they had done better, it might've been a bit more like, say, Game of Thrones... but they didn't.

I used to play "worse", namely the famous "A Dance With Rogues" mod for NWN1 for example, which is so explicit it made even me blush continiously, and that one deals with much harder topics either... but it's a totally different style of writing, the story is well told, the execution great, and maybe it's the fact that a woman wrote it that made the difference.

The Witcher on the other hand might've meant well, but the stereotypes don't come over as ironic and with a second thought behind them, the collectable cards just looked like 60's softpr0n and all in all it was for the most part laughable. Triss always stroke me as a character with much potential, actually I like her very much, but I have to agree on the nympho comment above too, she's not just the one woman who's proud and confident, she's going into another sexual extreme already. And Shani and the love scene... I couldn't agree more, a romantic evening and the final act ruins it.

I'm still all for mature content and hope companies get less scared of adding it to their games, but please try harder to be classy.

Oh yeah, and of course I could name lots of instances where Bioware freaked me out with their version of sexism (camel... feet.. outfits, achievements, Isabella, ....) but that's a different topic. At least I can still say that Mass Effect 1's love scene was very well done. 

Modifié par casadechrisso, 15 décembre 2012 - 01:03 .

[Dragoonlordz]

TW1 cards were kind of tacky but was much better handled in TW2.

[slimgrin]

casadechrisso wrote...

Oh it's funny how many memories this topic brings back, just reading it for the first time. I played The Witcher early after release and only started another playthrough a few weeks ago to get a savegame for Witcher 2... haven't come far in yet and my only sexual encounters were Triss and that Barmaid in Act 1.

What I clearly remember was how many discussions I had about this part of the game back then and the polarized opinions. On one hand it saddened me that people who I know would love the game weren't touching it due to what they heard about the cards etc, but on the other hand I had many issues with that part myself, most of it already mentioned above. And it was only the bad execution and -intentional or not- sexistic message behind it.

I have absolutely no problem with adult content, full nudity and sex in the media (not pornography), I don't differentiate between a love act in a book, a movie or a game. But the question is how it's told, and that's where the Witcher failed. If they had done better, it might've been a bit more like, say, Game of Thrones... but they didn't.

I used to play "worse", namely the famous "A Dance With Rogues" mod for NWN1 for example, which is so explicit it made even me blush continiously, and that one deals with much harder topics either... but it's a totally different style of writing, the story is well told, the execution great, and maybe it's the fact that a woman wrote it that made the difference.

The Witcher on the other hand might've meant well, but the stereotypes don't come over as ironic and with a second thought behind them, the collectable cards just looked like 60's softpr0n and all in all it was for the most part laughable. Triss always stroke me as a character with much potential, actually I like her very much, but I have to agree on the nympho comment above too, she's not just the one woman who's proud and confident, she's going into another sexual extreme already. And Shani and the love scene... I couldn't agree more, a romantic evening and the final act ruins it.

I'm still all for mature content and hope companies get less scared of adding it to their games, but please try harder to be classy.

Oh yeah, and of course I could name lots of instances where Bioware freaked me out with their version of sexism (camel... feet.. outfits, achievements, Isabella, ....) but that's a different topic. At least I can still say that Mass Effect 1's love scene was very well done. 

Reading this honestly makes me ill...if only a woman could clean things up at CDPR. I guess I'm done posting on this site. Congrats Allan, a small victory of sorts.

Modifié par slimgrin, 15 décembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[casadechrisso]

Huh, wow, unexpected reaction... o_0

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

slimgrin wrote...

I mean he's kind of an ugly dude and an outsider

Oh I wouldnt worry about that, most women prefer ugly men to groomed dandies, and you're ugly something mighty! Care for a romp?

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

slimgrin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Similar with Shani, the general vibe I am getting from the game is that there are some interesting concepts, but the execution missed the mark (hmmm this rings a bell >.>). I like the idea of having a grittier world where darker themes exist, and many of the concepts that come across were ones that I considered during NWN module creation days. It's almost eerie because some of it comes across the same almost to a tee.

Really. What are you suggesting, that they mind tapped you? 
It's clearly not your type of game and that's cool. I've disagreed with the CDPR guys about stuff too. But this observation borders on, well...maybe I won't go there. 

Men who live in glass houses?

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
So if your end goal was to just try to point out "Yeah but your company does it too!" I guess it's mission accomplished.  Unfortunately, you told me nothing that I'm not already aware of, and when I give feedback to the guys in the office it's still consistent with the type of feedback I have given regarding The Witcher.

Oh, I was just pointing out how both the Witcher cards and Mass Effect or Dragon Age sex achievements are really sort of the same thing yet people seem to raise a big stink over the Witcher cards yet not as much the achievements for sex in Mass Effect or Dragon Age. Granted, there are probably more reasons why that is (the nudity in the cards, how many you can get, objectifying women and so forth) versus why not as many people bring up the sex achievements as being immature or in poor taste in ME or DA (you're more limited in who you can have sex with, the actual achievments are visualy innocuous, you have to do a little more conversing or interacting with a given character before getting the achievement/sex). I don't really care much for achievements anyway, but it would be nice in BioWare games anyway, if they were tied to completing a given relationship arc and then not have that arc simply end in sex all the time.

But I pretty much agree with what you said regarding that topic though. I was just chiming in with a little comment is all.

[Allan Schumacher]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
While Triss is definitely a more  interestingly developed character (compared to many in The Witcher), she does basically come across as a nymphomaniac. While I have no problems with a character enjoying sex, it seems to be a frequent topic for her, to the point where she seems to bring up the innuendo on almost  excessive amount.

So you're saying Triss is Isabela in DA2?

Exactly what went through my mind when reading that. Though i don't remember Triss being nearly as excessive as Isabella in the innuendo department.

I find Triss less subtled actually.  She seems to make it clear that she wants to have sex with Geralt.  Somewhat frequently given how infrequently I've actually been able to interact with her.


At this point I don't consider the comparison apt at all, but then, Isabela is probably one of my favourite characters in a game.  Though I consider it beyond the scope of this thread to actually bother discussing it in depth.

[Allan Schumacher]

And just so people know, as much as I can justify forcing myself to play something I don't enjoy as being important for "market research," if I wasn't in general enjoying myself with The Witcher, I would have stopped playing.

My expectations are just adjusting because I was under the impression the game was a bit more serious than it seems it actually is. I don't mind camp, and I'm starting to approach it with more camp, which does help.

And minor quips like the combat are more just comments on how I struggled to play through the game the first time. I don't really mind it and it does look pretty cool to unlock new abilities, and there are many aspects of the skill tree I think are pretty well done.

I have added in some newer pics here.

[Firky]

I like both Isabela and Triss, but I think they're really different.

I was largely oblivious to Isabela until I read the comics, though. Her backstory interested me more than what I saw in game. With Triss, I thought her loving Geralt was obvious from the very first chapter. (Before I'd read the books.) I can totally understand why she'd put sex on the table in that circumstance, and in the context of the game. (And the fact that sex is kind of a currency Geralt relates to.)

I'm fairly into the idea that "love interests" in games don't necessarily need to be "attractive people" inside or out, though. I'd defend both Isabela and Triss's right to be a "turn off" to many people. (Just like Anomen in BG2. He was kinda whiny, but I loved that romance, because he was a really strong character.) Whether it's the character or the presentation of the character that is the turn off, however, is an entirely different thing.

Also, there's the contrast in the Witcher, with everyone throwing themselves at Geralt, that actually makes "romance/sex" *less* contrived, in a way. You don't have to keep picking the heart until they love you. Everyone just wants to sleep with Geralt, so he either does it or doesn't, repeatedly. (I wonder how I'd feel about his potential promiscuity if he were a female protagonist. Unsure.)

I think the game has a wrong reputation as "mature." I wouldn't call it "immature" either. It just is what it is. And, it rides on its fairly unique c&c system which isn't afraid to make you fail quests and lock out content.

Allan, I want to know more about how you're doing in combat. I didn't enjoy combat at the beginning, but by this stage I found I had to use quite a lot of alchemy etc, or die.