73 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Maria Caliban wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

This is true for all characters though. Bethany doesn't have access to the primal tree, Anders can't use entropy, Fenris can't use sword and shield etc.

Yes, but 'primal damage' isn't a combat role.

Combat roles:
Dealing lots of damage
Absorbing lots of damage
Healing damage
Crowd Control

A fighter in DA - Hawke, Fenris, or Aveline - can all absorb damage because they have high armor, resistances, and HP. Using a two-handed Fenris as a tank isn't optimal, but it can still be done.

All of the companions have options for damage dealing, and IIRC, all of them have a bit of CC.

After Act I, *only one companion can heal.*

Potions and mythral favour is a lot more effective than Anders. I think my Hawke was living on restoration potions at one point.

[Maria Caliban]

1. After a while, the game stopped giving you potions. I want to say there was a hard limit of 3 or 5. But the game *didn't tell you* what it was doing. I thought healing potions were an incredibly rare commodity and was afraid to use one outside of boss battles.

2. I shouldn't have to chug potions to heal. Especially as the game doesn't let you chug potions.

[The Elder King]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The main problem is that Merill didn't even have access to the normal healing magic, and this is pretty idiotic. Not only because almost surely Merill knows some healing magics (Marethari knows it, and I don't see why Marethari wouldn't have thaugh Merill), but because there's no reason for a mage to be prevented to learn healing magics, of the creation school. The same goes for Anders and Bethany. While I didn't like it much for the other companions, for the mages I think it's worse.

This is true for all characters though. Bethany doesn't have access to the primal tree, Anders can't use entropy, Fenris can't use sword and shield etc. But I see your point that limiting magic can feel a tad less easy to explain away since they all use staves in the end.

Must admit it's never bothered me in the slightest and has worked to reinforce the idea that they're different, though. While DAO pretty much requires you to use a dedicated healer, that is definitely not true in DA2.

I said that the same goes for Anders and Bethany. I didn't like for the other companions too, but it's not as stupid, in my opinion.
My problem isn't related only to the fact that we don't have an healer other than Anders (which is pretty limiting anyway, because if I want to have a healer in the party, even with only the creation school, I'm forced with him, while I can use for the other roles multiple companions), since there are potions (though I don't like to rely only to potions, as I don't rely only on healing magic). It's the fact that I find no reason (while I can understand somehow the reason for the non-mages class, though not completely) for a mage to have one of the basic schools of magic locked out.

[Kelgair]

I simply can't imagine Isabella regularly using a bow or Aveline swinging a two-hander around. Their class roles really are tied to their character in DA 2 and I actually like that. Origins had a bit of the same, Sten or Oghren going sword and board is just weird for me. To pick one example.

Merrill might've used a weak heal, but really she's more interested in blood magic/spirit damage schools than spirit healer/creation schools so story wise it made sense. Spec her right and she can take as much of a beating as Aveline or Fenris anyways. I fell into the trap on my first playthrough thinking that I had to use the trinity of healer, tank, damage but it's really not the case in DA 2.

[LinksOcarina]

A characters role in a party makes the character unique. It's kind of like how Oghren was always locked into using two-handed weapons, while Wynne was a primary healer. Yeah you can make Morrigan a healer too, or Alistar a maul-wielding fiend, but they would not be as effective at it.

Dragon Age II just removed all pretense of that being an option, and honestly the only thing it would influence is how Hawke was built in one way only; it felt redundant to use bows because you had two archers in the party in Varric and Sebastian.

Honestly, I think keeping this is a good thing. It gives the chracter's a set of skills they would prefer, and then gives the characters a more iconic personality. Using Anders as an example, he had maybe three or four times where you can ask him healing advice, and even can save two lives when he is present, because of his healing skills.

That creates good character and helps with the role playing.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm sure the attempt was to make Anders not inferior to Merrill. After all, if Merrill had every skill Anders did except blood magic (because it would be stupid to have blood magic with Anders, given that he rages against them on a frequent basis). So they had to nerf Merrill. Since Anders was a glorified spirit healer and Merrill a more complex Blood Mage, they cut off Merrill's ability to heal.

Ironically enough, this made Merrill somewhat inferior (especially for a Mage Hawke).

I understand the concept they were trying to go for, which is equality across characters while keeping only one specialization, but I think this should be done ONLY in their custom Specialization, while keeping the same 'Basic' skill trees for that class to be available to all members of that class.

[LinksOcarina]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'm sure the attempt was to make Anders not inferior to Merrill. After all, if Merrill had every skill Anders did except blood magic (because it would be stupid to have blood magic with Anders, given that he rages against them on a frequent basis). So they had to nerf Merrill. Since Anders was a glorified spirit healer and Merrill a more complex Blood Mage, they cut off Merrill's ability to heal.

Ironically enough, this made Merrill somewhat inferior (especially for a Mage Hawke).

I understand the concept they were trying to go for, which is equality across characters while keeping only one specialization, but I think this should be done ONLY in their custom Specialization, while keeping the same 'Basic' skill trees for that class to be available to all members of that class.

But would it make sense for Merrill to use Creation magic when she is set up as a more offensive mage vs a defensive one? Espeically with her blood magic specialization it clashes with the character.

This doesn't necessarily nerf her, but it gives her a different utility set to follow in Dragon Age II. For my own mage Hawke I had Merrill go full offense while I did the crowd controlling. It was something I didn't do before and it was damn fun to have her around spamming lightning all the time. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:01 .

[thats1evildude]

Yes, we should be able to change our companion's rolls. I find Aveline's recipe to be too bland, while Anders' rolls are all soggy and wet. Fenris' dinner rolls are far too crusty, while Merrill's rolls are far too sweet. And I don't think Isabela or Varric even know how to make them.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 10 décembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[Fast Jimmy]

But would it make sense for Merrill to use Creation magic when she is set up as a more offensive mage vs a defensive one? Espeically with her blood magic specialization it clashes with the character.

Of course it would make sense with her character. She used Blood Magic, but she wasn't an overly aggressive, offensive personality. Her upbringing as a future Keeper would have her well versed in healing and other spells designed to take care of the village, with more practical applications of blood magic/demonology.

Merrill is not the type of personality to see someone hurt and, instead of healing them, barge head first into battle, throwing attack spells while her friend "died."

Merrill's character was all about utility and practicality instead of being prejudiced against certain types of knowledge just because they are stigmatized. She was a student, first and foremost, so ignoring entire schools (especially schools that would be not just helpful, but REQUIRED as a Keeper) is silly for her character. She is not defined as an aggressive, destructive Blood Mage, but as a user of magic who can see the purpose, use and benefits of all branches of magic.

So for her to not have any healing skills is not true to her character. And likely a result of poor combat design rather than a reflection of good story telling.

[Face of Evil]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Of course it would make sense with her character. She used Blood Magic, but she wasn't an overly aggressive, offensive personality. Her upbringing as a future Keeper would have her well versed in healing and other spells designed to take care of the village, with more practical applications of blood magic/demonology.

Merrill is not the type of personality to see someone hurt and, instead of healing them, barge head first into battle, throwing attack spells while her friend "died."

But that is, of course, the point. She was a study in contrasts. Just as Varric was a dwarf who hated going underground and was about as non-dwarfy as you can get, Merrill was a sweet and caring girl that went skipping merrilly down the path to the dark side but turned back halfway; as such, her magical abilities were as "black" as you can imagine.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. After a while, the game stopped giving you potions. I want to say there was a hard limit of 3 or 5. But the game *didn't tell you* what it was doing. I thought healing potions were an incredibly rare commodity and was afraid to use one outside of boss battles.

2. I shouldn't have to chug potions to heal. Especially as the game doesn't let you chug potions.

IMO the best solution would be to scrap potions, and replace them with a non-consumable based self heal ability.

The fake consumability of current potions leads to people thinking they're in limited supply when they're not.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:08 .

[Face of Evil]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. After a while, the game stopped giving you potions. I want to say there was a hard limit of 3 or 5. But the game *didn't tell you* what it was doing. I thought healing potions were an incredibly rare commodity and was afraid to use one outside of boss battles.

If I recall correctly, the threshold was six potions on XBox 360. If you went below that, the game would give you more.

Doesn't matter. I still had potions coming out of my ass at the end game. There's so many potions in Legacy you think they were giving them out as candy to trick-or-treaters.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Wulfram]

Face of Evil wrote...

If I recall correctly, the threshold was six potions on XBox 360. If you went below that, the game would give you more.

It depends on difficulty

[LinksOcarina]

Face of Evil wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. After a while, the game stopped giving you potions. I want to say there was a hard limit of 3 or 5. But the game *didn't tell you* what it was doing. I thought healing potions were an incredibly rare commodity and was afraid to use one outside of boss battles.

If I recall correctly, the threshold was six potions on XBox 360. If you went below that, the game would give you more.

Doesn't matter. I still had potions coming out of my ass at the end game. There's so many potions in Legacy you think they were giving them out as candy to trick-or-treaters.

Well considering the endboss of Legacy...you might need those potions. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

The more options and choices, the better the game will be. So yeah, let us change their roles if we want.

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. After a while, the game stopped giving you potions. I want to say there was a hard limit of 3 or 5. But the game *didn't tell you* what it was doing. I thought healing potions were an incredibly rare commodity and was afraid to use one outside of boss battles.

2. I shouldn't have to chug potions to heal. Especially as the game doesn't let you chug potions.

IMO the best solution would be to scrap potions, and replace them with a non-consumable based self heal ability.

The fake consumability of current potions leads to people thinking they're in limited supply when they're not.

I think that's an excellent idea.

[FaeQueenCory]

wesam987 wrote...

You can change the skills for any characters to be what you want them to be in DA2 already. If you mean by the specializations then that's a different story and I agree with you. Having our companions only be allowed one specialization on something we may not even want them to be is quite restrictive to the player. Hopefully this will be more like Origins, allowing 'you' to choose two from four or five different spec's.

Even though I agree with this 100%... I seriously doubt they will do this...
They liked the companions being super unique, and part of that was with their spec.

While I actually enjoyed the companions unique specs in DA2.... I just wish they had more than one and I severely disliked shoe-horning of the roles of those characters by removing skill trees from their options. (while it's ok for the melee people to have their weapon-of-choice skill trees only.... the hell can't Merrill learn to cast "heal"???)

I hope they go with the compromise I mentioned years ago in the DA2 forums, cause I know they will not be going back to the Origins way with the companion specs, but what I suggested was to give the companion 3 specs. The first would be similar to DA2's wherein they start with 1-2 abilities from it and you can add more as they level up... and then at level 14, when the player can get a second, the companions gain two trees to pick from that are still unique to them...  but expand the roles their first tree had. (for example Anders' two tress would have been basically DD blood magic* and spirit healer... Merrills would have been more blood magic and "keeper arts"**.... etc.)

Hopefully they will listen to me and make some thing sort of similar... and not to restrict their mage's skill trees at all. Because that was just dumb and poor design.




*try and convince me with your delusions that Martyr isn't blood magic.... It's the same thing. Just called "demon magic"
**Assumedly her keeper arts is where a group heal spell would lie.

Modifié par FaeQueenCory, 10 décembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[mutombomania]

for me its not only the roles, but the limitations DA2 opposed on your group selection.
Anders is a shining example of an mainstay character, because he was the only healer.
but in combination with class combos, there were only a few effective group setups.
on higher difficulty settings you were stuck to this setups, depending on your main chars role.
while i liked the class combos, I'd love to see a more flexible setup for the next installment.

[AtreiyaN7]

Kaiser or poppy seed? I like all kinds of rolls! But on a serious note, while I appreciate the unique trees on the DA2 characters, it would have been a good idea to give all mages access to spirit magic a la DA:O. I don't really see that much of a reason for limiting their roles by removing an entire tree, but c'est la vie. Maybe they'll be sensible about it in DA3 and do both: have the unique skills and give you access to all the basic ones. I imagine that that would keep people reasonably happy (if that's actually possible here anyway).

[Beerfish]

I have no problem with the way it was in DA2. Tougher decisions to make in group dynamics are not bad for me, others may disagree. We essentially get to buuld them as we see fit within their fields, that is fine by me.

[Twisted Path]

Thought this thread was about the goofy way DA2 rogues would roll around or something. But yeah, making the most unlikable character in a game full of unlikable characters also the only healer for 2/3 of the game was horrible.

They could have at least given Merril the heal spell. Or maybe given warriors a skill-tree that involves mildly healing companions through the power of their bold leadership, D&D 4th edition Warlord style.

[Cutlass Jack]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Kaiser or poppy seed?

Cinnamon Rolls. They stick to the side of your companion's head changing their role to princess.

[Helena Tylena]

Anders has the additional problem that half of his specialization tree completely excludes the possibility of healing.
So basically, we had half a healer.

Personally, I like there to be less focus on rigid party roles of tank/damage/healer(/crowd control). Too WoW-y for my tastes.

[BouncyFrag]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Kaiser or poppy seed?

Cinnamon Rolls. They stick to the side of your companion's head changing their role to princess.

I'm still fuming over that guard stealing my sweetroll.

[Rpgfantasyplayer]

I like the fact that the companions were specialized in certain areas, but I also hated that unless I am a mage and choose spirit healer that I can't have anyone else with that specialization other than Anders. I hated taking him along and sometimes I couldn't catch my companions quick enough to give them a potion and then they died. In Legacy my companions died in like 3 seconds and I had to keep chugging potions as quickly as I could and luckly I was able to beat Corypheus alone. (that is after running around like a chicken with my head cut off to wait for the potion cooldown.)

Modifié par Rpgfantasyplayer, 10 décembre 2012 - 08:19 .