90 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingahootz]

knownastherat wrote...

There is a difference between trivializing (which can only mean using the most efficient/effective approach) and just beating an encounter.

My opinion is that if some players are having problems beating a boss or winning a fight it is not because they did not min/max and/or do not have + X gear, but it is mainly because they do not know the game (mechanics) enough and/or are not using what they have on hand (terrain, pots, abilities/spells, timing, .. ) to the fullest.

That is true but you must keep in mind that if I were to make a help video based upon my current play through it would not actually be very helpful. I'm using some of the best gear in the game (I got Alistair Starfang super early as well as Evon's Mail, Leliana got Far Song really early, and my Mage has all of the gear listed above there). Honestly, my gear is trivializing the game. I can just run in and kill Cautherien without using ANY strategy what so ever. It's just "DURR MY GEAR IS TEH AWESOMZ! ZEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!" Where as in my first play through, I had a LOT of trouble with that fight.

Edit: After re-watching his Jarvia video it LOOKS like his mage is using all of the items that I listed (though I'm not 100% sure but those robes look like my current mage's and that staff REALLY looks like Staff of the Magister Lord). I'm also wondering whether or not Zevran is using Rose's Thorn in his video (it's very hard to tell but could be possible). A LOT of first time players wouldn't have that gear.

Modifié par Ingahootz, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .

[knownastherat]

I hear you Ingahootz and agree that some gear is so "uber" it is for Gods. I was just disagreeing with the part saying people fail because of gear or/and poor builds.

For example .. how to beat mage/s in the Deserted Building in Denerim? 100% spell resist or Mana Clash is not (sophisticated ..) answer to me. Yes, such approach will trivialize the fights, but it is hardly the only way to beat them.

Writing guides is tricky as there are many possibilities: team composition, level, gear, ability/spell picks, etc etc so to me guides are ways to show something can be done and how, not a walk-through to follow. They might reveal tips and tricks though.

Modifié par knownastherat, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:17 .

[Ingahootz]

Right I agree that guides are a means to use as a point of reference. However, if you are using uber gear in your video you should really mention it so that someone doesn't look at it and say "Damn why can't I drop those guys that fast?"



Btw I've seen quite a few people put points into Willpower for Alistair and claim he's a terrible tank and dies too quickly. In some cases, yes a person's build and gear choice does prevent them from beating encounters.



I think the OP's video guides have a lot of potential but I think they just need a little bit of work. What I'd personally do is at the start of every video mention the gear I'm using (and if I was making an instructional video I wouldn't use any DLC gear or items that cost more than 20 gold) and state that I'm using a min/max build of some kind for my characters and direct them to the forums using youtube's bubble popup (Not everyone will find his video from this thread).



That way players get a better idea of how their characters and strategy compares with his.

[knownastherat]

Indeed, if the so-called common sense (fulfilling requirements for Talents included .. say 20 Dex for Shield Tactics for him) fails then nothing helps I guess. IMO the game does a decent job at letting players to use "common sense" while progressing "naturally", though both are debatable I can see that.

Mentioning gear and other details c/would be useful yes.

Modifié par knownastherat, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:41 .

[soteria]

I hear you Ingahootz. I am using the staff of the Magister Lord. I don't know off-hand what other items my mage was using (I'm at work, can't check). I don't know what dagger Zevran had, but it wasn't anything I bought. The only expensive items I bought in that playthrough were the abovementioned staff, the knight-commander's armor and spellward (for Gaxxkang, which I mention in the video).



I don't think I'm using any DLC equipment, unless you count the Lucky Stone as DLC. I don't even have the helm of honnleath. Oh, I did give Alistair the cadash stompers in the Cauthrien fight, I suppose. I don't have Warden's Keep so no Starfang etc. No Edge.



My mage purposefully did a 2 magic/1 will and later 2 magic/1 con. Shale I gave a mix of str, con, and dex. Leliana and Zevran are split between dexterity and cunning. Sten and Oghren I just put points in str. IMO, I didn't really min/max that much, so I don't bring up my stats in most cases. I don't comment on spell selection because anyone can pause and see what I have--and the struggling players usually aren't the ones that are downloading a respec mod to change their build anyway.



You do have a valid point, though. So as a viewer, would you prefer to see that sort of information pop up as an annotation (the little bubbles on the screen) or in the information sidebar? I can't stand the sound of my own voice, so I'm never going to orally relate what gear I'm wearing.



I'll try to do something on spell combos, as well as the battle of redcliffe, in the next week. Spell combos will take a little longer because I want to do it right, and I can't just go into a single fight and capture a video.

[Ingahootz]

I think pop up boxes would be more appropriate because then you don't have to delay your video talking about everything you do. There's viewers that would both love to know what equipment you're using and how you speced, but at the same time there's plenty that just don't care.

[x-president]

Cool vids and nice job on all of it.  I prefer seeing a tactic done over reading it.  This woops anything I do so far, but I am working it better tactic wise.

I am on my 2nd playthorugh, but on both it was full steam ahead toe to toe action as a group.  


I need to try seperating more which is probably my biggest downfall.  Also I am never that far zoomed out.  I just feel I loose out on up close visual detail, but I noticed you get a better view of the spells zoomed out.  I definitely will try to apply these tactics.

[tetracycloide]

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the gear in the videos is too good. For most of the fights if a player doesn't have good gear there's nothing preventing them from backtracking to get it once they learn it exists. The only real exceptions to this are The Ogre, Branka/Caridin, and The Archedemon. For the rest of the fights there's either an option to go get better gear or talents first and come back or you don't actually have to win the fight to progress.

[soteria]

Ok, in the Jarvia video Zevran is using dual crow daggers and my mage is using a tier 2 staff. In the Branka video my mage has the staff of the magister lords, archon robes, and reinforced magus cowl. Eventually I replaced the archon robes with first enchanter robes. Morrigan uses the libertarian cowl in the few cases she makes an appearance. In the Cauthrien video Zevran is using the Dead Thaig Shanker, so I guess *technically* that's DLC.  Leliana is using Falon'din's Reach.

On the other hand, Alistair is wearing Havard's Aegis (from the tower of ishal), runic worry totem (starting ring) and embri's many pockets (spell resist belt). I'll try to sift through some old saves and figure out what level I was at various points.  If it's significant to the fight I'll note any gear I was using (really only applies to Gaxxkang and the various dragons).  I'll also put up a link to the forums for people to find more information about building a character.

Modifié par soteria, 13 janvier 2010 - 10:30 .

[soteria]

Cool vids and nice job on all of it. I prefer seeing a tactic done over reading it. This woops anything I do so far, but I am working it better tactic wise.



I am on my 2nd playthorugh, but on both it was full steam ahead toe to toe action as a group.





I need to try seperating more which is probably my biggest downfall. Also I am never that far zoomed out. I just feel I loose out on up close visual detail, but I noticed you get a better view of the spells zoomed out. I definitely will try to apply these tactics.

Glad you enjoyed them. I actually play close in a lot of the time on other characters, but when I'm playing a mage and having to aim a lot of aoe spells, it's just easier to be zoomed out. Also, I figured since I'm trying to show the fights...



Overall, I prefer to be zoomed in as well, I confess.

[tetracycloide]

It might be fun as a side project to complete all the toughest fights in the game with no equipment with green lettering of any kind and only auto-leveled NPCs or something like that.

[x-president]

soteria wrote...

Glad you enjoyed them. I actually play close in a lot of the time on other characters, but when I'm playing a mage and having to aim a lot of aoe spells, it's just easier to be zoomed out. Also, I figured since I'm trying to show the fights...

Overall, I prefer to be zoomed in as well, I confess.

I did try zoomed out and it actaully wasn't that bad.  I was zoomed in 1 click before being completely zoomed out.  That still gives a slight seat behind the players.  It definitely showcases some of the larger rooms and caves and translates the size of them much better and your position in the room. 

I did notices sometimes if you are backed up or too close to a wall, ceiling, or object you are by, the camera will get blocked.  

Other then that it definitely helps you get a good look of the battlefield and what is going on.  A lot of times zoomed in you really do not see what is going on with other companions unless you rotate the camera or select them.  Or what is going on behind you.


Vid Suggestion:  Not sure if you are specifically going for battles, but some people have trouble with some quests like Places of Power.  Something to think about.  Also there is the main battle at the Circle of Magi and the Sloth demon in the Fade (use shapeshifting or not possibly?)  I know on my first run through I had difficulty fighting the Sloth Demon.

[soteria]

Updated with Battle for Redcliffe, keeping the villagers alive, and Flaming Sliders Puzzle, the puzzle "Kitty" asks you to do in Honnleath. Credit for that one goes to Mikeon. Hopefully he doesn't mind my posting the link to his video.

[RovingRube]

Thanks for making these, sotereia ...I also am someone who does better seeing and hearing rather than reading tutorials. Just watched your Redcliffe battle, and little details like "take out the two higher-level Deathwalkers first" (or whatever they're called) ... and that the townspeople are relatively fragile archers... I remember this kind of advice better for future fights when it is pointed out to me more literally like this. And the game is more enjoyable when you win cause you know what you are doing then when you just muddle through.

[tetracycloide]

It comes up in your video of the broodmother kill already that if the damage is too fast on her all the adds will spawn at once. I wanted to add that she is susceptible to some CC and, if timed right and if backed up with sufficient damage, it's possible to kill her before she screams at all. This resulted in no adds what so ever. Naturally I reloaded because I didn't want to miss out on a dozen darkspawn's worth of experience but I thought you might be able to use this information should you ever decide to redo that video. When I did this I had one mage with 115 + spellpower and a level 19 Leliana with 47 damage and rapid fire. With auto attack damage from both these characters + virulent walking bomb + crushing prison + vulnerability hex + affliction hex I was able to burn her down without a single scream triggering.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 17 janvier 2010 - 01:45 .

[soteria]

Glad you enjoyed them, RovingRube. On the elite guys--my general rule of thumb is, kill yellow ones fairly soon (not necessarily absolutely first, but when you can get to them), and kill orange ones dead last. My next project is going to be a series of spell/ability guides, I think. I may or may not redo some of the various videos I already have up. I do think I could have done better on the Broodmother, especially. The problem is there's so many ways of doing that fight and I only represented one of them, really.



Interesting, tetracycloide. I watched a video of a guy who used paralysis explosion on that fight, which isn't actually something I even considered. Just never used CC on the tentacles, I confess. Of course, with the tentacles paralyzed, you can actually kill them in the first round, which I assume is how you used virulent walking bomb?



My only reluctance in redoing it like that is, any player with a group that can put out that kind of damage isn't going to need a video to show them how to get past this fight. Or any fight. Well, regardless, given the number of comments and questions I've gotten on that video, I think it's clear I could have done a better job with it. Maybe I could do something like the way I did the ogre video--cutting to an entirely different way of doing it.

[tetracycloide]

No, I used it on the brood mother herself. With all the debuffs up and 30% spirit damage on gear it ticks for quite a bit of damage, 60+ in most cases. I don't recall the exact amount on her but when I later faced Caridin with the same character I slapped on the debuffs followed by the DoTs and he was dead before the rest of the party could finish off the golems. Spirit DoTs are pretty powerful if properly backed up.



My post should not be interpreted as a critique, merely an alternative. Obviously with enough damage the fight is a cakewalk but, for example, even you had to be shown that paralysis explosion is useful on that fight. I myself didn't even notice the function of the stone areas of the room until I saw you video.

[soteria]

Yeah, I wasn't feeling defensive, just commenting on the possibility of my doing that in a video. I think it's pretty ironic that I don't use paralysis explosion in this fight, and didn't even think of it, considering I (ab?)use it in almost every other fight.



I think my favorite thing about doing these videos has been learning how to play better myself. My previous playthrough it was no potions, this time it's no potions and no healing spells... just finished up killing Connor. It's been interesting... think I'll head to the Brecilian Forest next. I always do the Circle first, so I think I'll change it up.

[x-president]

That Spell Combo vid is ok.  It could have used more explantion.  You could read about spell combos to get that info.

I don't wanna come off sounding harsh.  Props for anyone taking the time to do any type of video.  I guess I was just expecting more of a tactical approach to the video.

Also there are many spell combos not listed in the game that have tactical benefits that could be displayed.

[soteria]

And here is the Sloth Demon. I know a few people have asked me about spell combos... as I said, when I do it, I want it to be done right, and it's taking me some time to collect all the clips of how to employ them tactically. Broodmother redux will have to wait for a bit, too.

[x-president]

soteria wrote...

And here is the Sloth Demon. I know a few people have asked me about spell combos... as I said, when I do it, I want it to be done right, and it's taking me some time to collect all the clips of how to employ them tactically. Broodmother redux will have to wait for a bit, too.

1 shot 1 kill can't go wrong with that.  I never realized how good that spell was until I used it for the first time on my 2nd play through.

Another suggestion for that fight, I always like going to the ghost form then drop crushign prison with snow spell. Then switch out to Golem run in and unload all abilities.  This lets crushing prison refresh and you can repeat that method.  Then go to PC form for anything you have.

Mixing up shapeshifting forms can be very effective and produce some great combos not only for that fight but the entire Fade section.  I didn't use burning man alot because of the FF from the fireball and a couple ice spells takes care of that one demon that uses fire.

[x-president]

I just finished Sloth Demon on "Hard" setting.  I did notice one thing.  It seemed like the demon ran out of mana.  When it was around 1/8 health (last form) or so it seemed to stop casting and kinda just move around.

Do the demons have mana limits?  If so you could try to wait him out as another technique.  It wasn't what I intended but it kinda worked out.  I had to do a couple revives in the process.

So I guess another strategy could be to use mana drain on the last form right away to stop the castign then go in for the attack.


Edit:  Also I used your tip on the Burning Man when I faught the that one demon that's on fire.  It worked out really good.

Modifié par x-president, 21 janvier 2010 - 03:52 .

[soteria]

Well, I suppose cycling through the forms would work pretty well, but I find that after I use crushing prison, winter's grasp, and much of anything else I'm just about out of stamina, and I couldn't afford to use a lyrium vein just to refresh stamina. I agree it works great in the fade in general, though.



I guess if draining its mana worked, it works. It's not really something I had considered, probably because my group makeup didn't allow for any kind of endurance race.

[x-president]

soteria wrote...

I guess if draining its mana worked, it works. It's not really something I had considered, probably because my group makeup didn't allow for any kind of endurance race.

Yea I probably wouldn't recomend it, but it oddly happened that way.  I had
everyone spread out and the Sloth Demon would only target 1 person. 
Companions did die, but I was able to keep Wynne alive to revive.  Allistar and Morrigan took turns with the beating.  I was swapping forms to use Crushing Prison and WInter's Grasp.


A combo I find really effective in the fade and works awesome against the Ogre: 

Spirirt Form - Crushing Prison - Winter's Grasp - Burning Man - Fireball - Golem - Rock Throw - Quake - Slam

- It can be done without waiting for mana or stamina to regenerate.  That'll just destroy the Ogre or any demon you have to battle.  Of course with the fire resistant demons I cut out Burning Man. 

[soteria]

Finally: Spell Combos. Hopefully this is helpful to some people.